Yowza! This hurts!

[elcee 3,340]

Maybe I should have specified low GI carbs.

Obviously we need to eat things which are nutritious over those that are not. I believe that we need to eat all food groups . Yes even fat but it should be the healthy kind (e.g the kind found in fish ). There have been lots of studies on the effects of no fat in a diet as well.

But I do believe that carbs have their place and one of my reasons for getting the band was so I did not have to follow a diet for the rest of my life.

I eat things like oats for Breakfast. Not instant oats proper oatmeal cooked in a pot. Or I may have a poached egg on a slice of wholegrain toast - I find that a lot more satisfying than just eating the protein(egg). In fact if I were to just eat the eggs without the toast I would probably consume a lot more calories as I would find it easy to eat a number of eggs.< /p>

lunch might be something like a wholemeal wrap. Especially if I am out and need to find something I can eat. It can be hard to find a meal that is just Protein.

I would never eat a whole bowl of rice as it doesn't appeal to me.I've never even thought of adding butter to it.

For an evening meal a small portion of rice , potatoes or Pasta with my veg and Protein makes it more satisfying and probably again cuts the number of calories I consume. I cannot imagine eating my meat, then my veggies and then my rice - I hate the taste of plain rice. But eating something like curry with rice, lasagne or whatever means I can eat the same as the rest of the family , it tastes good and I am able to be satisfied with a smaller amount.

But everyone has to do:-

What their Dr has advised

What suits them

What they are able to stick to.

Which is what I am doing!

[slimmap 1]

Hi Keith. I appreciate all that you have to say. Believe it or not, the best thing that you had to say, that really re-opened my eyes, was the statement about how sumo wrestlers eat !! I laughed at first but realized that if I don't keep that in mind, there isn't any surgery in the world that will help me get and stay where I want to be health-wise. Also, I have to deal with this stress the same way an alcoholic would...day by day, or in my case minute by minute. I am just in a difficult situation now that is common to a lot of people. My parents health has deteriorated and I am the only family who lives in the area. Everyone expects me to do everything for my parents and it is driving me crazy. I have to do what is right for me but sometimes that hurts their feelings. Don't get me wrong. I am not some out of control person. I just gave in last night with that darned rice. It hurt my stomach so much that I got very scared. All is well now on that front today. I just hadn't ever experienced that sort of painful situation before. I like the feeling of good health and intend to keep pursuing it. Thanks again.

[RestlessMonkey 7]

There are a LOT of people who eat rice and aren't fat. It's important to remember that, too. All things in moderation, Grasshopper! :smile2:

[Jachut 487]

Exactly.

How did this thread got onto a carb versus non carb discussion, lol?

There are a lot of us who eat rice and have lost weight too.

I have no problem with what dietary plan people choose to eat or what they choose to believe is healthy from the plethora of theories out there.

However, i have a problem when people present their approach as right or correct to the exclusion of others.

We have a whole country of people here in Australia who are not encouraged to do Protein first and who are not encouraged to give up rice, bread and Pasta (although we are warned they can be problem foods). And we have good results with the band here in Australia. So it is patently obvious to me that the Protein first, carbs only from fruit and vegies approach is just not the only "right" way to do it. It is absolutely obvious to me that you can lose weight on a diet that includes reasonable quantities of bread, rice and Pasta.< /p>

Although I agree, nobody "needs" white low GI carbs and that these are unhealthy junk foods, I'd also argue that you can eat some of them and not be fat. There's evidence of that everywhere. I'd also argue that nobody "needs" deli meat, protein or not. Nor do they need cheesed or Protein shakes - particularly soy isolate ones(hmmm, I'd like an overdose of gm soy product packed full of toxins and phyotestrogens for my Breakfast thanks).

I think the health side of this is an entirely separate one that most of us arent qualified to argue on - especially when it appears different bodies need different things. Some people will find their blood chemistry is diabolical after a few months on Atkins, others find it improves. Some people's bodies react way worse to carb foods than others.

My own personal view is that I believe nothing that's out there completely and that its still safer to go moderation in all things. I try not to eat white flour and sugar, and to eat the wholegrain version of things, I occasionally eat white rice or potatoes, becuase once in a while is pretty irrelevant, as is a bit of chocolate now and then. And entire countries subsist on rice without having 1/3 of the health problems of the USA. Sumo's get fat becuase of CALORIE intake (which is made up of a lot of rice) not becuase of rice itself - you could get fat on apples if you wanted to.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Exactly.

How did this thread got onto a carb versus non carb discussion, lol?

It started here:

Carbs are not the evil monster a lot of people believe them to be. They do actually form an important part of a healthy diet.

In fact reading a lot of the posts on this board it seems like a lot of bandsters are on the "Atkins diet" or at least a modified form thereof.

I have not been told to stay away from carbs nor have I been told to eat Protein first.What my surgeon aims for is a balanced diet.

Having said all that though I have been warned that rice can cause problems which means that I am not likely to try eating it in any kind of quantity. I think it is better if you choose the kind that doesn't stick together in clumps when cooked and also mix it with your mince or whatever you are eating with it.

I think it is a fair comment to make that there are good carbs and bad carbs. I made the comment that a modified Atkins diet can be a pretty darn healthy diet.

There are a lot of us who eat rice and have lost weight too.

Did anyone claim otherwise?

However, i have a problem when people present their approach as right or correct to the exclusion of others.

Of course. But don't you notice a lot of newbies asking "at goal vets" how they did it and how the maintain?

We have a whole country of people here in Australia who are not encouraged to do Protein first and who are not encouraged to give up rice, bread and Pasta (although we are warned they can be problem foods). And we have good results with the band here in Australia. So it is patently obvious to me that the protein first, carbs only from fruit and vegies approach is just not the only "right" way to do it. It is absolutely obvious to me that you can lose weight on a diet that includes reasonable quantities of bread, rice and Pasta.< /div>

You see, here is where I'd have to comment.

Last article I read about your health system is that due to obesity it is on the verge of bankruptcy. Now I grant you that I haven't kept up with the topic so maybe you guys recovered from it. I do not know. I do know obesity is a HUGE problem in the US. Just yesterday I read more stats showing 1/3 of our population is normal weight, 1/3 is over weight, and 1/3 is obese.

Personally I disagree with protein first. I understand the concept but I do not agree with it. I'd rather see people get a lot more veggies in. I think a reasonable approach is veggies first, protein, then carbs and starches.

Although I agree, nobody "needs" white low GI carbs and that these are unhealthy junk foods, I'd also argue that you can eat some of them and not be fat. There's evidence of that everywhere. I'd also argue that nobody "needs" deli meat, protein or not. Nor do they need cheesed or protein shakes - particularly soy isolate ones(hmmm, I'd like an overdose of gm soy product packed full of toxins and phyotestrogens for my breakfast thanks).

Most of us that needed WLS did so because we don't really know what moderation is. What about people that plan a weekly date and time to eat a load of crap? They "reward" themselves with a special date and time to eat absolute garbage? My thinking is this:

~Especially as noobs we don't really do moderation well and that is pretty much why we needed WLS to begin with.

~With appropriate restriction caloric intake is drastically cut. If they fill up on flour and sugar products there is no way they can get all nutrition in,

~I suspect for most flour and/or sugar is a trigger food. It sure is for me, one bite of anything with flour in it and it's all I think about... wanting MORE! Talk to people, especially vets. They know exactly what their trigger foods are,

~WLS is a learning experiences, after we have surgery we discover just how much we did not know about food, nutrition, food triggers, etc.

~WLS is a lifestyle change. Too many people are still eating crap, just smaller quantities of crap. We most certainly did NOT get fat eating apples, we got fat eating white carbs and trans fats. Introduce me to a MO person that lives on an all apple, no white carb diet. I want to meet them. ;o)

I think the health side of this is an entirely separate one that most of us arent qualified to argue on - especially when it appears different bodies need different things. Some people will find their blood chemistry is diabolical after a few months on Atkins, others find it improves. Some people's bodies react way worse to carb foods than others.

Which version of Atkins? No carb or healthy carb?

[keithf 2]

Hi Keith. I appreciate all that you have to say. Believe it or not, the best thing that you had to say, that really re-opened my eyes, was the statement about how sumo wrestlers eat !! I laughed at first but realized that if I don't keep that in mind, there isn't any surgery in the world that will help me get and stay where I want to be health-wise.

You know, I remember reading that many, many years ago. I think I was 9 or so. Some children's story out of Japan. Before I replied, I did verify it, and spent half an otherwise sleepless night (cat in the hospital) learning much about sumo's ranking and social structure. Fascinating, actually.

I really have no idea why the description of sumo training stuck with me this whole time. There are other choice bits of random trivia that come in useful every once in a while. I once won a trivia contest by stating the only baseball player whose name I could remember -- Lou Gehrig -- whose name I only recall because it's the common name of the disease afflicting Stephen Hawking. And did you know the Space Needle in Seattle was originally painted "Galaxy Green" and "Orbital Orange", if I remember that documentary from way back? Now if I could remember my age when I need it, that'd be something.

Also, I have to deal with this stress the same way an alcoholic would...day by day, or in my case minute by minute.

Absolutely. When I finally went to bed last night, I was starving, and ice cream was calling, but I knew I would get some very, very disapproving looks from Person Who Matters. Next Friday (assuming I end up going), there's a wedding. They scheduled it in the hopes that I would be well enough post-op to attend, and have already stated they're providing lunch meats. But there's still that cake. And those butter mints. And if my great aunt shows, probably lefse and krum kake. I do hope I don't develop any intolerance to that. Once, maybe twice a year is all I ask.

(grilling lunch meat with a krum kake Iron.. that would be wicked)

Everyone expects me to do everything for my parents and it is driving me crazy.

Sorry if it sounded like I thought you were out of control. I didn't: the big brother in me is a bit sensitive to people starting back down the path when some more immediate support for them would help. You went through surgery, and you're having to deal directly with the results. Shouldn't that be enough? Having someone there to help you through *not* having to engage your band sounds like a good idea to me. :smile2:

I hope things resolve as they ought for you. It certainly looks like all the more reason to get all the support you can. I have a friend in a similar situation, who eventually was forced to call in for help, which has allowed him to help himself in a few ways. Notably, he's working on his own (non-surgical) weight loss program and doing well by it, I hear. I send him recipes I come across every once in a while (he's still the only person I know to have made truffle enchiladas).

[slimmap 1]

Keith you made my night. You are hilarious! My sons are also keen on trivia...maybe they will go on a quiz show and win a lot of money. Funny that you mentioned Lou Gehrig. My youngest son wrote a report on him that has a star on it. It is front and center on the fridge, along with a mirror so that I can see myself when I open it. It is a visual aid that reminds me that my double chin is disappearing.

Don't worry, I didn't think you implied that I am out of control with my eating. But last night when I ate that white rice, I certainly was. That is a very scary feeling, being out of control. That's why I started this thread. Usually I do a pretty good job of staying on the "straight and narrow" as far as this lap band goes. But I didn't last night and I didn't like it either. My family just made me crazy. By the way, I interviewed two people today for helping out my mom and dad. Hopefully this will relieve some of the stress so I can tend to my immediate family.

Go to the wedding. Enjoy yourself. You sound like somebody who will do very, very well with the lap band. Chew gum if that helps. It helps me during times when I'd like to eat just because the food is there. (I do not care that I look like a cow chewing her cud). It keeps me on track.

Well, my youngest son wants to be tucked into bed. I will not miss that for the world. Good night all. And thanks again Keith.

[keithf 2]

Most of us that needed WLS did so because we don't really know what moderation is. What about people that plan a weekly date and time to eat a load of crap? They "reward" themselves with a special date and time to eat absolute garbage?

I watched "Bill Cosby: Himself" last night. I'd forgetten his monologue about people getting wasted on the weekends. It was pretty much as you summed it up.

~Especially as noobs we don't really do moderation well and that is pretty much why we needed WLS to begin with.

Now why we don't do moderation well can vary. I don't recall how much current research there is on children receiving and recognizing the signal that satiety has been reached. I'd hazard a guess that most children in the US nowadays never even get the chance.

Once upon a time -- I think I was 7 or so -- my well-meaning mother changed my "small chef salad" order to a larger portion. She was surprised and upset that I didn't finish it. After all, we didn't have that much money to waste food with.

Too much non-reinforcement, and you've reinforced against an appropriate response.

~WLS is a lifestyle change. Too many people are still eating crap, just smaller quantities of crap. We most certainly did NOT get fat eating apples, we got fat eating white carbs and trans fats. Introduce me to a MO person that lives on an all apple, no white carb diet. I want to meet them. ;o)

Now here's the thing that floats around my mind. My mother spent her life growing more and more overweight. Toward the end, she had developed a variety of medical conditions including, eventually, diabetes, asthma (thanks to spending 3 years smoking secretly) and COPD. Yet her diet was primarily vegetables (raw broccoli, often enough), because she couldn't stand long enough to cook.

Her primary problem, though, was brittle bones due to steroidal treatment for another syndrome, so she couldn't be particularly active. She broke ribs a few times over nothing. Basically she had reached a threshold where the normal courses of treatment (even typical WLS patterns) could help.

Her younger sister is *very* interested in knowing my progress, since she's got a hundredweight of her own she needs to lose. Her son even more. I'm planning on taking her my bariatric program materials soon.

Which version of Atkins? No carb or healthy carb?

As I recall, and it's been a while:

Induction, generally < 20g/day (to trigger ketosis)

Main course, generally < 60g/day.

Maintainance, whatever level maintains your weight.

It's a primitive approach to glycemic load. The grams of carbs typically sought is calculated from the nutrition label as Total minus Fiber, and so Fiber is free. Starch, of course, is not, and the foods that are primarily stach or sugar tend to be weeded out. It makes no statement regarding post-, proto-, or pre-agriculture foods, monocots vs dicots, or anything like that. Though, again, those lines tend to align near the same place. If there's a variance, I usually notice it as the presence or absense of starchy vegetables.

[keithf 2]

It is a visual aid that reminds me that my double chin is disappearing.

I hadn't developed one of those yet. But within the first week of my two-months of pre-op dietting, the sides of my belly caved in. I'm wondering if I could use them as satellite dishes. They're about the right shape -- just add aluminum foil. :smile2:

By the way, I interviewed two people today for helping out my mom and dad. Hopefully this will relieve some of the stress so I can tend to my immediate family.

I'm glad to hear it. It really did help out my friend. His LiveJournal account is at Adult Content Notice, but the posts about caring for his father (Adult Content Notice) are locked to friends. Also, some posts are tagged not-safe-for-work for a reason (adult content). That said, he does seem to pick up friends, and is good about keeping things behind warning cuts.

Chew gum if that helps.

It's at my uncle's. My uncle was my junior high PE teacher. I'd count myself lucky if he didn't make me do laps (last time he did, he was also the guy with the bactine cleaning out a seriously trashed knee after I fell en-route).

Well, my youngest son wants to be tucked into bed. I will not miss that for the world.

Who would? :wink2:

[Jachut 487]

But Wasa, the whole obesity thing is not as simple as white carbs - although of course, cutting those is a great place to start.

People eat a LOAD of other poison - trans fats, saturated fat, additives, colours and flavours, loads of salt, pesticides and other chemicals. I know that basically you and I do agree about what a healthy diet is too.

Personally I believe if people actually learned to shop, cook and plan and stopped living out of boxes and cans, there'd be a lot less fat people around. And even the thin ones would live longer and have less disease.

People also dont move - I mean read here about how people drive to work, spend their day at a desk, and drive home, then go for half an hour on the elliptical and call THAT a good exercise day. Its not their pwn personal fault, I'm not saying anyone is slack, but that is just SO far removed from what the human body is designed for that its ridiculous. Half an hour on a cardio machine will never ever make up for the fact that we're supposed to be moving all day.

Put all those factors together and THEN you've got a nation in obesity crisis, and that's a crisis that wont be fixed simply from giving up flour and sugar. Its way way more complex than that.

that's where I agree with you - thinking you're doing fine just by eating smaller amounts of crap food is dangerous. Cutting out starchy, white carbs is a great first step, but that's all it is - a step in the right direction, not the whole answer.

[elcee 3,340]

My apologies for "hijacking" the thread if that is in fact what I did.I actually thought there were posts prior to mine that were saying that carbs were not good.I do have to admit that I do easily get sidetracked though!

To the OP I hope that your pain has now gone and that you are feeling heaps better.

[Jachut 487]

Lol, I think we can safely assume that the OP's tummy has settled down by now. It either went down or came up :-)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Now why we don't do moderation well can vary. I don't recall how much current research there is on children receiving and recognizing the signal that satiety has been reached. I'd hazard a guess that most children in the US nowadays never even get the chance.

I don't know that I agree with that thinking as much as what we are feeding children today.

When I was a kid McDonalds was something we did every few months. Today many people eat it several times a week.

Now, if you look at the diets of people 100 years ago... I don't know how they survived to adulthood. It was just as bad but bad in a different way. Bacon and eggs every morning, huge loads of fat and calories for their main meal and craploads of Desserts. But... they needed those calories, they were out there working farms, cutting wood, they were busting their butts. Kids were doing chores, hard work kind of chores. Not taking the garbage out or cleaning their rooms. They were working farms and doing similar work to their parents. Going to school was just one job, their other job started when they got home.

Today kids whine if they have to walk to school. They go to school, come home, then watch TV or computer games. They eat crap and if you notice overweight parents tend to have loads of crap foods in the house. If you give a kid a choice between a carrot and a cookie while he's sitting on his butt watching TV he's more likely to choose the cookie just like once you start feeding an infant fruits they prefer the sweet flavor over veggies.

I don't know that it is fair to blame full signals in children, I think a better bet is to see what they are eating and how they are moving their bodies. Don't you remember when you were a kid? When I was a kid we were outside playing hard all day long. We were riding bikes, running, chasing one another, playing all kinds of games. We came home for meals and between meals we were burning calories. That's not the case today.

Too much non-reinforcement, and you've reinforced against an appropriate response.

Agreed.

Now here's the thing that floats around my mind. My mother spent her life growing more and more overweight. Toward the end, she had developed a variety of medical conditions including, eventually, diabetes, asthma (thanks to spending 3 years smoking secretly) and COPD. Yet her diet was primarily vegetables (raw broccoli, often enough), because she couldn't stand long enough to cook.

Her primary problem, though, was brittle bones due to steroidal treatment for another syndrome,

Bingo... steroids. I don't know many people that can take steroids and not gain weight. That's the drug, not the diet. Those drugs don't just make you gain weight, they shift fat from one part of the body to another.

But Wasa, the whole obesity thing is not as simple as white carbs - although of course, cutting those is a great place to start.

People have to start somewhere. When I tell noobs about my diet they turn up their collective noses and walk away and I would have done the same when I was a noob.

When you cut out foods that contain flour and sugar most noobs feel like there is nothing left to eat. It takes time to change a lifetime of habits and cutting out white carbs is a good place to start.

I think one reason some do not do well in the beginning is that they really don't know there is life outside of bread, Pasta and Mickey D's. People don't have money in the US, families are struggling, we are losing 100,000 jobs a month right now. People are trying to make a buck stretch. Do you have something similar to dollar stores there? We have stores where nothing in the store is over $1 USD. I go there because there is a s/f drink that I can't find anywhere else. To be honest, I hate those stores. It is loaded with cheap garbage. Canned Pasta, chips, sugar drinks, just horrible foods. J, if you saw the Dollar Tree store you'd faint with shock. And it's all for under a USD. Very few healthy choices in there but this is where people are shopping due to financial need.

I eat pretty cheap but that's because the foods I like are cheap. Beans, lentils, fresh organic veggies, very little dead critter, my downfall is cheese but I eat such small quantities that I do not care. Show a newbie my diet and they can't believe anyone could maintain that diet. I went from an all fast food diet to I eat similar foods to a rabbit. But that didn't happen overnight, it was a work in progress. Today it's what I prefer and fast food places stink a lot. I can't stand the smell.

People eat a LOAD of other poison - trans fats, saturated fat, additives, colours and flavours, loads of salt, pesticides and other chemicals. I know that basically you and I do agree about what a healthy diet is too.

Totally agree. But, newbies don't typically just change their diets overnight. Cut out white carbs and it cuts out a lot of the other poisons that go with them. Canned pastas, most fast foods, etc.

Personally I believe if people actually learned to shop, cook and plan and stopped living out of boxes and cans, there'd be a lot less fat people around. And even the thin ones would live longer and have less disease.

Totally agree again. Processed foods replaced nutrition with chemicals and poisons and THAT is what we feed kids and then we wonder why they are fat. I was just reading a study two days ago that shows that 30% of children are "obese" in some states in the US. When I was a kid the fat kid was really noticable because there was usually just one fat kid per class, if that. Today it's 1/3 of the kids that are at least overweight if not obese.

About six months ago there was a lady that contacted me about her daughter. She wanted help with getting insurance to cover banding for her ***9*** year old daughter. This kid was 9 years old and has a BMI of 73. She was already riding a scooter because she couldn't walk anymore due to the size of her thighs. Her feet weren't close enough together to be able to walk. She wanted to band her daughter because she too, was MO and didn't want to change her own eating habits. If she kept her fav foods in the house her daughter would eat them so her thinking was band the kid and the family didn't have to change their own food habits. What kind of sicko crazy thinking is that?

[Jachut 487]

Yeah, I think we're basically arguing the same thing here, but coming at it from different directions.

I get frustrated because people simplify it to carbs and nothing else - when you look back to the 50's and 60's people ate carbs in their diets then and people werent fat like they are now - it's all snowballed with the combination of carbs and fat into processed foods that just used to not exist.

I think you just have to define it so that people include in their mental picture of junk foods white bread, flour and sugar along with McDonalds, KFC and pizza. I can remember back in the 80's being on a low fat diet and being hungry an hour after a lunch that consisted of a banana in a white bread roll so I ate jelly babies because they had no fat. Argh. Not exactly a constructive way to tackle a weight problem!

I certainly dont advocate that or do it now!

But I also dont believe fat people all lack the ability to be moderate and I personally dont really believe in "trigger foods" either - but maybe that's because I dont have any particular ones.

I guess really why I'm so pedantic on this is that I very strongly dont believe in rules and diets and I dont think there's success down the road if you just ban whole good groups forever. I think realistically everyone IS going to eat McDonalds or cake or Pasta once in a while and that its more sensible to find ways to fit that into an overall healthy diet rather than just ban them. But that's personality I guess.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Jachut

[elcee 3,340]

I think you just have to define it so that people include in their mental picture of junk foods white bread, flour and sugar along with McDonalds, KFC and pizza. I can remember back in the 80's being on a low fat diet and being hungry an hour after a lunch that consisted of a banana in a white bread roll so I ate jelly babies because they had no fat. Argh. Not exactly a constructive way to tackle a weight problem!

I remember one of my aunts who always had jam with her toast instead of butter - because fats were fattening , sugar wasn't!

I guess really why I'm so pedantic on this is that I very strongly dont believe in rules and diets and I dont think there's success down the road if you just ban whole good groups forever. I think realistically everyone IS going to eat McDonalds or cake or Pasta once in a while and that its more sensible to find ways to fit that into an overall healthy diet rather than just ban them. But that's personality I guess.

I agree with this totally. If something is banned it becomes forbidden fruit and you want it MORE! If you are allowed everything in moderation then you have a plan that you are much more likely to stick with. We need to aim for the healthy lifestyle not focus on being on a permanent diet. its what you do 90% of the time that counts.