Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Wheetsin 714]

In the criminal justice system of most states, the murder of a pregnant woman constitutes the killing of TWO people - not one.

This is another great sticky sort of inconsistency. Last I checked, suicide attempts only went to court if the insanity was contested (feel free to reword that into legalese). In other words, someone who tries to commit suicide is not charged with attempted murder. At the time there was nothing making attempted suicide while pregnant any different than while not, and an attempted suicide that resulted in a living mother but dead child - well that was no where to be found.

So it would seem that it's only murder if the baby is inside of someone else.

[Wheetsin 714]

Just want to add - it was several years ago that I researched this, and I make no claims that what I've represented is current law.

[Carlene 12]

I find this to be weird in the extreme....and very, very disturbing.

From the testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN

U. S. House of Representatives Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution Hearing

"Born Alive Infants Protection Act of 2001"

July 12, 2001

After I testified last year, Christ Hospital stopped putting aborted babies to die in the Soiled Utility Room. This past December it unveiled its "Comfort Room." This is a small, nicely decorated room complete with a First Foto machine in case parents want pictures of their aborted babies, baptismal supplies if parents would like their aborted babies baptized, and a foot printer and baby bracelets if parents would like keepsakes of their aborted babies. There is also a wooden rocker to rock these babies to death. (Pictures entered into Congressional Record.)

[Carlene 12]

A true "complication" of abortion story....Is Gianna a person, or not?

Gianna Jessen (born April 6, 1977 in Los Angeles, California) is a pro-life advocate, symbol and a Christian recording artist.

Jessen was born over a month premature after a failed saline abortion. The doctor who had carried out the abortion was not present at the moment that Jessen was born alive, and the nurse called an ambulance and had the two-pound baby taken to hospital. Because of damage done during the abortion, Jessen now lives with physical disabilities and cerebral palsy. Doctors predicted that she would be blind, in a persistent vegetative state, or disabled for life — never walking. According to Jessen, some even suggested that she would not want to live in such a condition. However, she views her condition with humor and acceptance, once saying, "Sometimes I'll be walking up steps, and I'll just fall right over."

Jessen's biological parents, who were both seventeen, put her up for adoption. When she learned from her adoptive mother the truth behind her premature birth, she became an advocate against abortion. She begins her speeches with this statement, "I was aborted and did not die." She is a Christian, and credits Jesus with preserving her life. Gianna: Aborted...and Lived to Tell About It by Jessica Shaver gives a more detailed story of her life.

Jessen testified before the United States Congress on April 22, 1996 against partial-birth abortions and again in 2000 in support of the Born Alive Infant Act. She has said, "My biological mother thought she was making a decision affecting only her. If abortion is merely about women's rights, then what were mine?"

Despite her physical handicaps, she has trained to become a marathon runner. In 2005, she ran one in her hometown of Nashville, Tennessee, and in 2006 she entered the London Marathon.

[skyeblu79 0]

Carlene already answered this beautifully with the adoption issue and I agree with her. What's wrong with adoption? Yes I am saying outlaw abortion.

One solution other than adoption, could be to raise the baby, own up to your mistake, be a woman and just raise the child. wouldn't be the first time someone had a baby that was a mistake and raised it.

Just because some adoptions turn abusive, most probablly don't and it's still a better option than murdering a baby.

The only reasons that I would be ok with abortion are

Incest

Rape or

The life of the mother is at stake and the baby has a slim to nill chance of survival.

Ofcourse each one of those situations may or may not constitute murder, if I was in the position of any one of those reasons I may not have one.

I mean real answers, not talking ferries and Disney. We live in a real world, with real issues, and people w/some real problems.

So, if you are raped or a the fetus is a product of incest how is that any different. The circumstance of how the child was concieved is different, but the fetus is the same. Just looking for justification or how it's any different. What about the tons of cases where the child has been strong enough to survive and the mother couldn't.

I thank God my mother wanted me and raised me. I couldn't imagine if she didn't want me. I guess I just know to many real world situations that are sad and dear to my heart. I hate to see kids suffer.

[Wheetsin 714]

I may not be ok with an abortion... | I think that if i was ever put in one of those situations then I would have to have personal prayer as well as counseling with my Bishop. | If the baby isn't going to live and the mother is on her death bed then that is also a different story. | Under usual circumstances...yes it is murder.

Breaking points added by me, so no one thinks I'm trying to make several statements look like one.

I don't object to you saying one thing, then saying another. Or the apparent hypocrisy between your beliefs and your statements. I object to you making the claim that people who see grey in the subject of murder have no value on human life, then proceeding to have grey in the subject of murder... unless of course you would include yourself and your own value (or lack thereof) on human life in that statement. Then it's all good.

Because when you equate grey to lack of value for human life, you're talking about me, and you're telling me that I don't value human life. And then you're saying that you see grey... so surely you aren't holding us to different standards are you?

[Carlene 12]

More about the "comfort room"....this still defies logic, in my mind. If these are just "blobs of tissue", why do they require comfort care? And if they respond, as human beings, to "comfort", isn't it wrong to kill them in the first place?

And what kind of person makes the decision to abort, then rocks/comforts the dead/dying child....the same one they've just participated in killing? Am I the only one who finds this VERY creepy?

When asked about Stanek's story, Christ Hospital's spokesman referred the question to its parent company, Advocate Health Care. A spokesman for Advocate Health Care did not return repeated calls from HUMAN EVENTS. But on March 31, the Chicago Sun-Times reported, "A spokesman for Christ Hospital's parent, Advocate Health Care, said it provides `compassionate care' for its patients and estimated that between 10% and 20% of fetuses with genetic defects that are aborted survive for short periods outside the womb. `This is a legal and approved process.'

At the request of Stanek and Karen Hayes (the Illinois state director for Concerned Women of America) the office of Illinois Atty. Gen. Jim Ryan conducted an investigation of the practices at Christ Hospital. In a July 17, 2000 letter to Hayes, Chief Deputy Atty. Gen. Carole Doris wrote, “We have concluded that there is no basis for legal action by this office against the hospital or its employees, agents or staff at this time.”

“The hospital has never denied that they do this,” said Hayes last week. “Its chaplain wrote a letter to the [Chicago] Tribune saying that they do it.”

[skyeblu79 0]

I find this to be weird in the extreme....and very, very disturbing.

From the testimony of Jill L. Stanek, RN

U. S. House of Representatives Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution Hearing

"Born Alive Infants Protection Act of 2001"

July 12, 2001

After I testified last year, Christ Hospital stopped putting aborted babies to die in the Soiled Utility Room. This past December it unveiled its "Comfort Room." This is a small, nicely decorated room complete with a First Foto machine in case parents want pictures of their aborted babies, baptismal supplies if parents would like their aborted babies baptized, and a foot printer and baby bracelets if parents would like keepsakes of their aborted babies. There is also a wooden rocker to rock these babies to death. (Pictures entered into Congressional Record.)

The people sound deranged...And they need kids?!

[GeezerSue 7]

A true "complication" of abortion story....Is Gianna a person, or not?

...Jessen was born over a month premature after a failed..abortion..."

Why would she NOT be a person? Just because she was not wanted?

[Sunta 4]

Well I'm sure all of you by now would have guessed that I support a woman's right to choose. That being said, it's not something I want to fight about. I absolutely don't think that arguing with someone who is pro-life would ever, ever in a million years, change their mind.

The things I like to argue about are things which I hope would make people think, and maybe do research and maybe make them start recycling, or go ahead and buy that earth-friendly product, or maybe support a local business instead of Walmart.< /p>

I also argue alot about Gay marriage, because I do think that maybe if people are more educated about it, they might soften their views towards Gays a little bit.

But abortion? That belief is just so deeply held, and its opponents so impassioned, that I feel defeated before I even open my mouth to express my points. Therefor, I'm not going to fight about this one, but more power to you who have the gumption!

Finally, I wanted to say that although I've had it out with Leatha on another thread (about Gay marriage), I am inspired by her open willingness to disclose so much about her life, and would encourage anyone to be sensitive to those here who are willing to be so open about their personal lives, no matter what the issue. We can all argue, fight even, about "issues", but when it becomes personal we need to step back and take a breath. I'm not admonishing anyone particular of course, but just wanted to say that.

[Sunta 4]

Oh shoot, I forgot to say just one thing, and I hope this is not mistaken for me jumping into the argument, but a mission of the "zero population group" I belong to is to spread education about birth control, which I think has the potential to cut down on the need for abortion, expecially in developing countries.

[lisah25 3]

And what kind of person makes the decision to abort, then rocks/comforts the dead/dying child....the same one they've just participated in killing? Am I the only one who finds this VERY creepy?

It depends on the reason for the abortion, IMHO. I have to think some of these are babies that even though born breathing, have severe medical issues that would cause them to die regardless of care. And some of the parents might be heartbroken people who are grieving for that.

[dotofoz 0]

I mean real answers, not talking ferries and Disney. We live in a real world, with real issues, and people w/some real problems.

So, if you are raped or a the fetus is a product of incest how is that any different. The circumstance of how the child was concieved is different, but the fetus is the same. Just looking for justification or how it's any different. What about the tons of cases where the child has been strong enough to survive and the mother couldn't.

I thank God my mother wanted me and raised me. I couldn't imagine if she didn't want me. I guess I just know to many real world situations that are sad and dear to my heart. I hate to see kids suffer.

What I would take from this is that to the anti choice folks is that the fetus' survival is more important than the mother's....? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Carlene 12]

It depends on the reason for the abortion, IMHO. I have to think some of these are babies that even though born breathing, have severe medical issues that would cause them to die regardless of care. And some of the parents might be heartbroken people who are grieving for that.

Grieving for what???? They ABORTED these babies!!! That means they chose to KILL them!!!

If someone kills your child, would you think it appropriate if they showed up at the funeral to "grieve" your baby's death?

[Carlene 12]

What I would take from this is that to the anti choice folks is that the fetus' survival is more important than the mother's....? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Abortion is rarely about anyone's survival - except the baby's, of course. Women who would die without an abortion are virtually non-existent in this day and age.