English Teachers: Please Help Me!!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

For years, not only Blacks, but many other groups fought for equal rights, civil rights and an integrated society. For years, not only Blacks, but many other groups helped Blacks fight for equal rights, civil rights and an integrated society. Allowing one sub-group of a group to have their own language will just split this country in half or at best continue the unraveling of this nation. Not all Blacks speak this so-called language, just the poor under-educated ones and the ones who can make money from using it and supporting it.

What's next? Will we allow children and maybe even teach children a new form of writing in which they leave out many of the vowels and spell phonetically as they do when they text message?

This acceptance of less than mediocrity is just another example of dumbing down the American citizenry to promote a proletariat too ignorant to complain about their plight.

Without language, our thoughts are hindered and muddled.

With ambiguous language, our thoughts are chaotic, our reasoning is flawed.

[TommyO 5]

Official state recognition does not change whether or not a dialect is going to be used. It is pure folly to suggest that there is proper and improper English. I suggest you travel the country then the world you will soon see that English changes as you travel. In England the officail home of the Language there are regioanl differences. Leave Englang only but a foot and you have a very unique version of the language in both Scotland and Wales. Then travel to Ireland or set off to the colonies, you will soon discover the langauge is spoken differently by many. With all due respect, there is no more choas or flawed reasoning in these locations then in the motherland.

The English language has many variations throughout the U.S. speaking as a frequent visitor I have seldom heared proper English on any of my many visists but I assure you that I have had many enjoyable conversations.

The idea that governments can enact laws that create or allow a form of speach is ludicrous. People do not need laws to allow them to communicate, politicians can continue to blather on and say nothing but in the end it will not change the fact that we communicate with each other and that is the intent of language.

Soon the thought police will show up, imagine random thoughts that do not follow the conventions of proper English, chaos and flawed reasoning will no doubt be running rampant, it's the end of civilization as we know it.

Cheers

TommyO

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I am not advocating policing language by police, just the requirement to learn a standard language in schools. If People want to speak Italian in their homes as my grand-parents did, or Spanish as the parents of my childhood Puerto Rican friends did or as many modern day immigrants from Mexico and the other countries south of the USA's border still do, that is their prerogative. And Ebonics is fine when spoken among people who can agree on its usage it their personal life. The problem though is that practice makes perfect and speaking one language in private situations and one in public places makes one proficient at neither.

Also, it becomes difficult to communicate between groups when (and if) each group decides to speak these different languages in the market place or at intergroup functions. As long as a common language that all can understand is stressed, then there is little harm in having a second and even a third language. I believe that it is a fact that learning language is very beneficial to brain development, but when people can only speak one language and that language is not the common language and worse yet when that language is a hap-hazard hog-podge of words, slang and grammar, then things do become chaotic. Part of the benefit of the learning the second language to the brain has to do with the discipline of learning the rules and the translations between the languages. One language alone, no matter which it is, does not give the same benefit.

Many of these experts who foster Ebonics have never lived in a neighborhood where people do not have the ability to communicate with each other. They have not witnessed the acrimony which develops when one person thinks he is being spoken about in a derogatory way because a person who intervenes in a bi-lingual (non-lingual may be a better description) argument speaks only the language of one of the combatants. On my previous job where everyone spoke English (or else they would not have been hired) and there was a meeting between a supervisor who spoke Spanish and 10 mechanics, 7 whom did not speak Spanish and three that did, when a Spanish speaking mechanic asked a question in English and the supervisor answered in English and then added something in Spanish with a laugh and the four Spanish speaking people all had a laugh together, the non-Spanish speakers were annoyed. We were discussing how to do our job, not socializing. No one complained when some Spanish speaking people were on break and they spoke Spanish, but for work, communications must be understood by all. Suppose something went wrong and the supervisor said, “I remember telling them not to do that” and he did tell us, but it was in one of those comments he made in Spanish.

As usual, I have drifted all over the place. But I feel passionately that people need to communicate. Many people feel that I am paranoid about the political situation that we are in. The people who control government have no problems communicating in a common language (and with a common goal). If the people who must vote can be split by the language that they speak and if many people can not get an education because they can not communicate in anything but a dialect that has no consistent rules from city to city, or state to state, then the future is bleak. While words of 4 syllables or more are not removed from the so-called language or dialect of Ebonics, they are seldom heard. At least that is my experience and I lived more than 80% of my life in predominantly Black neighborhoods.

[GeezerSue 7]

...The people who control government have no problems communicating in a common language (and with a common goal)...

There are others who speak whatever it is that Dubya speaks? Wow!! I guess I misunderestimated him.

[TommyO 5]

T.O.M I can't agree, sorry but as soon as you argue in favour of the regulation of language you lose me. It always come down to who gets to make the rules. I participated in forums where the participants spoke many languages and still the group was able to comunicate. And I dare say far more effectively than some groups that shared a single common language.

The true reason that there were rules created for langauge use was originaly to help maintain class structure. Proper English was spoken by by the upper class, in essence Your words identified your station.

No where in the world is class structure more prevelant today than in the United States of America, maybe thats why it is more of an issue for you. (Hows that for a little provocation )

The world will not go to a hell in a handbasket because people speak variations of the language but it is doomed when we become intolerant of others.

Cheers

TommyO

[green 6]

In France there is an official society which can ajudicate on matters of language usuage; this is called l'Academie Francaise. Of course what so many people like to call Pareesian French is really francais standard for the Parisians speak in their own characteristic manner, as do the folks who live in Alsace, the Pyrenees, or in Provence.

There is something called the Queen's English though I am not aware that there is an official organisation that determines what is and what isn't in that category - certainly nothing like l'Academie Francaise. I have been told that the advent of television is causing regional differences in spoken (and written) English to be flattened out in both the United States and England. It makes sense that this is what globalization would do, eh. Still, regional accents and quirky usuages of words and phrases do exist, and this is part of the charm of language. And we are all given the opportunity to ask the question: wha the hell do ya mean?

As for the Spanish speaker, it seems that he has more problems than we do. Spanish is a language that changes greatly throughout the various Spanish speaking countries or so I have been told.

[green 6]

It is certain that a common language is needed in order to knot a country together. In India this language was English, the language of her colonial oppressors. In Canada, a very young country, and one where many of us are still first generation immigrants and others of us are Aboriginals, that language has to be English unless you are living in the Province of Quebec. It is only there where the Canadien can survive and prosper without speaking un seul mot d'anglais (a single word of English) and this is because this country is officially bilingual. The courts must serve the francophone in his own language.

I spent a few years living in France. It did not occur to me that the French should be expected to learn English. Standard English is the lingua franca of most of Canada and of the United States. If folks want to play in the major leagues then they must, whether this is right or not by folkloric standards, learn to communicate by using standard rules. On the other hand, no one should diss a fellow human being for being a little bit different. It is those differences that make life both interesting and fun.

[Carlene 12]

A portion of Bill Cosby's

Address at the NAACP's Gala to Commemorate the 50th Anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education

Ladies and gentlemen, listen to these people. They are showing you what’s wrong. People putting their clothes on backwards. Isn’t that a sign of something going on wrong? Are you not paying attention? People with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn’t that a sign of something or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up? Isn’t it a sign of something when she’s got her dress all the way up to the crack -- and got all kinds of needles and things going through her body. What part of Africa did this come from? We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don’t know a damned thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail. (When we give these kinds names to our children, we give them the strength and inspiration in the meaning of those names. What’s the point of giving them strong names if there is not parenting and values backing it up).

Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person’s problem. We’ve got to take the neighborhood back. We’ve got to go in there. Just forget telling your child to go to the Peace Corps. It’s right around the corner. It’s standing on the corner. It can’t speak English. It doesn’t want to speak English. I can’t even talk the way these people talk. “Why you ain’t where you is go, ra.” I don’t know who these people are. And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. Then I heard the father talk. This is all in the house. You used to talk a certain way on the corner and you got into the house and switched to English. Everybody knows it’s important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can’t land a plane with, “Why you ain’t…” You can’t be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth. There is no Bible that has that kind of language. Where did these people get the idea that they’re moving ahead on this. Well, they know they’re not; they’re just hanging out in the same place, five or six generations sitting in the projects when you’re just supposed to stay there long enough to get a job and move out.

[TommyO 5]

I didn't realize Bill Cosby felt that way. If I had known that a celebrety had that opinion I would have completely changed my view on the subject. From know on you get to tell me how to speak. If Bill Cosby say's I should use proper English then it must be correct.

I think I should go out and by a few sweaters, I'm sure Bill would approve of that. It appears that he has not only help clarify the English thing he also appears to be able to decide how we dress. Thank god, it's Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada and I had planned to wear pants that hung down below my crack and wear a hat backwords. I wonder if he thinks it appropriatte to Celebrate thanksgiving this early? I guess I'll just wait for his approval. Hey Hey Hey it's banded Albert

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

No where in the world is class structure more prevelant today than in the United States of America, maybe thats why it is more of an issue for you. (Hows that for a little provocation )

The world will not go to a hell in a handbasket because people speak variations of the language but it is doomed when we become intolerant of others.

Cheers

TommyO

Luckily or sadly, you can't provoke me. I was an oddball on my job. As a white man, I was disliked by about 50% of the whites who didn't think I should be so friendly with the Hispanics and Blacks.

The Blacks and Hispanics liked me, trusted me and confided in me more than any other white man, but I was still an outsider looking in.

I never worry about class. I always said that any man can make it in life if he has either money, talent, class or looks, but I will still make it with none of the above.

When you treat everyone fairly, you hear things like, "you should treat me better because we're the same color, we're the same religion, we're from the same ethnic background or we have been friends for years" or "so you treat him better because I'm black, or because I'm Puerto Rican, or because I'm Dominican" or whatever.

People who were like me expected to be given everything, but I didn't and people who were unlike me complained if they didn't get everything.

As a crew chief, I usually made up five teams of 2 mechanics and assigned them different responsibilities. My predecessor had warned me to keep the two Irish guys together as one team, the two American Blacks together as another team, the two West Indian Blacks together as another team, the two Hispanics together as another team, and so on and so on. Well that caused arguments over the Irish team getting premium pay for missing lunch or the Black team might get a dirty job, etc.

So I solved the problem. I integrated each team. That way when a dirty job came up, no one could complain that I assigned a minority team. Or when a good job came up, they could not say it went to a white team. Just about every assignment was given to a mixed team.

But I insisted that while speaking about job related situations, we spoke in standard English with no slang. Most members here at Lap-Band can not know how it feels to wake up in the morning and hear on the TV or radio that a plane from your company has crashed with 150 people dead. You hold your breath until you hear the flight number and then thank God that it was not you that might have caused the plane to crash. I worked on three planes at JFK that left but never returned to JFK in my 35 years.

Luckily for my sanity, none of the crashes had anything to do with the work that I had performed. I don't know how I could have lived if I had caused the crash.

I know that there are quite a few nurses here at LBT and I would assume that they could relate to what I just said.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I didn't realize Bill Cosby felt that way. If I had known that a celebrety had that opinion I would have completely changed my view on the subject. From know on you get to tell me how to speak. If Bill Cosby say's I should use proper English then it must be correct.

I think I should go out and by a few sweaters, I'm sure Bill would approve of that. It appears that he has not only help clarify the English thing he also appears to be able to decide how we dress. Thank god, it's Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada and I had planned to wear pants that hung down below my crack and wear a hat backwords. I wonder if he thinks it appropriatte to Celebrate thanksgiving this early? I guess I'll just wait for his approval. Hey Hey Hey it's banded Albert

I believe the point of the story was that in the USA, if someone who is not Black relates a negative thought about Blacks, then they are called racist. So by retelling a story told my a prominent Black man with a negative twist on modern Blacks, the poster would not be accused of racism.

It is a shame that honesty or integrity of a story that discusses a racial issue must be judged first by race of the person telling the story. But it is a fact of modern day life in the USA.

[TommyO 5]

Bill Cosby is a Comedian, not an expert on Language nor is he an expert on Social interaction. Race is not applicable to this debate, I agree that Ebonics was put forth as a potential English dialect that should be recognized as a valid language but my argument is not relative to any race issue.

I do not believe that the English language should, or can be regulated. English has been, and will continue to be an evolving language, that to me is one of it's most endearing qualities. In spite of any attempts to create strict rules around the language new styles and variations will continue to pop up.

As well I don't think that this debate is a life and death matter. I can't compete with 3 Mile Island or potentail airline disasters. You will never covince me that speaking proper English is required to save lives. It's hard for me to debate when it appears that I am advocating for a system that will result in death and mass destruction, wow that's a hard battle to fight. Implying that following the other sides belief will some how lead society to ruination is a techniique I often see used by the religiouse right to argue their point. We are having a debate about the use of the English language, implying anything more (Like i just did with the whole religious right thing) is not good form, we are not saving lives here.

One last thing.

Last night I went out with my dear wife for dinner and some great wine. My response to the Bill Cosby post was too sarcastic. I was trying to be humorous but I was really just a smart ass. It must have been the wine, so my apologies.

[Carlene 12]

Bill Cosby is a Comedian, not an expert on Language nor is he an expert on Social interaction. Race is not applicable to this debate, I agree that Ebonics was put forth as a potential English dialect that should be recognized as a valid language but my argument is not relative to any race issue.

Bill Cosby is much more than a comedian. That is somewhat like saying that Bill Gates works with computers. Cosby has worked tirelessly for years to further the cause of young Afro Americans.

He was the first major entertainer to cancel an appearance in Cincinnati after a boycott was called in response to the 2001 Cincinnati Riots. His support of this cause encouraged other stars to follow.

Cosby has been critical of what he sees as the African-American community's acceptance of fatherless single parent households, high crime rates, and high illiteracy rates. He encouraged a more proactive effort from African-Americans to reduce those problems. He expanded upon his remarks in San Jose, CA during an event to promote the Read-2-Lead Classic.

Cosby was the impetus for the formation of ARISE Detroit! when, in a Jan 13, 2005, speech at Wayne County Community College he challenged black Detroit's to stop blaming white people for problems they could solve themselves. "It's not what they're doing to us. It's what we're not doing," the entertainer told the audience of nearly 2,000 people. A little more than a year later, ARISE Detroit! was formed to address this issue.

In addition he has personally donated millions of dollars to social, civic, and artistic endeavors, including:

one million to the US National Slavery Museum, one million to the National Arts Centre, and 20 million to Spelman College.

To Bill Cosby and many others who genuinely care about the future of young black people, this IS about race. Eubonics is about race. How many non-black people do you know who use Eubonics as a form of communication?

To elevate bastardized English to the status of "a potential English dialect that should be recognized as a valid language" would do untold harm to the very ones who speak it. They just don't have sense enough to recognize that, but Cosby does.

And to make matters worse, Eubonics has now become so infused with Hip Hop jargon that the two are virtually the same "language". And I personally find that appalling because Hip Hop is disgustingly anti-feminine, anti-authority, and pro-violence. How can anyone possibly promote a so-called language that never refers to women as anything more than a "ho" or a bitch? I'm sorry, but I don't take "she one fine bitch" as a compliment - ever.

[green 6]

There are regional differences in English, as there are in any language, and there is no escaping this fact. Indeed it is inevitable that misunderstandings will arise even between two members of the same family who speak the same language. As I have pointed out in an earlier post, some experts surmise that television has and will cause some of these differences to be flattened out.

But I think that the aim of everyone when they are talking to someone outside their immediate peer group is, or should be, communication not obfuscation and to that end one does need communication skills, both oral and written. It may well be that surly Black teenagers, like all surly teenagers, cannot imagine a day when they will want to communicate with anyone outside their own peer group. They, unlike the new immigrant, will be resistant to learning standard English. Does this mean that they shouldn't and that we should learn Ebonics in order to be culturally sensitive? Remember this has been a culturally and economically oppressed group. Or will it be that young Blacks will grow disenchanted with the language once it becomes the lingua franca of a bunch of White people?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I am not using "life and death" matters as a "red herring" or a scare technique.

Please explain to me how I as a aircraft mechanic crew-chief could give my subordinate an instruction if we do not agree on the definition of the words or the usage of grammar that I use to give the instruction.

I also would like to know how we are supposed to agree on the instructions in the aircraft manufacturer's maintenance manual if we do not agree on the definition of the words or the usage of grammar that are used in the instruction.

I made a big mistake in my opening post by bringing in Ebonics.

I was actually interesting in the relatively new usage of sentences like the McDonald's ad.

I had said that "I am loving it" is not the same as "I love it" and wanted an English teacher to comment on it.

I uses Ebonics as a stepping stone to show a possible progression between the standard English, the McDonald's type English and the Ebonics.

It is my opinion that language is needed for communication.

Communication is more important to me than the freedom to say whatever word you want in place of any other word or in any order.

Here is a real red herring. It is also a joke as was the "3 Mile Island" story.

A man is in a theater and yells "Fire, Fire". There is a stampede and dozens of people are injured. The police and fire department respond and when no fire is found the man is arrested for disturbing the peace and causing a riot.

At trial he explains to the judge that when a good looking actress walked onto the screen, he yelled, "Fire, Fire" because she looked so "hot". It is what all his friends say when they see a "hot" looking babe.

No, it never happened, just like the "3 Mile Island" story never happened. If you go back to my post on page 6 of this thread, you will see that I said that it was a joke made about the "3 Mile Island" incident. I only used the "3 Mile Island" joke to illustrate a point. The airplane story was true about a mechanic saying "bad" when he meant very, very, good.

But during a televised debate on English, the "Fire, Fire" in the theater story was given to the debaters to ponder. Some said that the man should be found guilty and some said he was not guilty.

If we can't agree that he is guilty, it may mean that we actually are agreeing on everything in this thread, but because we don't agree on the same language usage, when you say right I think that means left. So when you say, " I do not believe that the English language should, or can be regulated" I understand that to mean "We had better regulate English language or else the civilized world will come to an end”.

See how easy agreement is. But that depends on what the definition of the word "is" is.