Obama's trip to Montana a big stage!

[BJean 16]

Patty: "There is no literal 'fire' in Hell. Flames are a figure of speech. We know this because if you try to take it literally, it makes no sense, for Hell is describe as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames? Flames would light things up. Whenever the bible speaks of 'flames' it is speaking of 'judgement'. God himself is called a consuming fire. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying that he is a God of judgement. This is why it is important to study the word of God, and not take what religious teachers have taught you to be true as fact. Many children have been taught that they will burn in fire forever if they reject God. This simply isn't true biblically. The truth is that rejecting God in this life will seperate you from him for all eternity, and it will be a torture to your soul forever."

Thanks patty, for pointing out at least one ambiguous bit of writing in the Bible.

[pattygreen 5]

Thanks patty, for pointing out at least one ambiguous bit of writing in the Bible.

You're welcome, bjean. Is their any other ambiguous writing in the bible that you may need clarified?

[BJean 16]

I didn't need clarification. I just thought it was big of you to help me make my point by observing that ambiguity exists in the Bible. Particularly since you generally argue against that fact.

[pattygreen 5]

I didn't need clarification. I just thought it was big of you to help me make my point by observing that ambiguity exists in the Bible. Particularly since you generally argue against that fact.

I don't believe I ever said that there wasn't any figurative speech in scripture. For there is much of it. But if one actually 'reads' the scripture, it is easily recognized. Just picking out a verse or two to hand someone doesn't reveal the whole package.

[BJean 16]

Backing up a little bit, you argue in some of your earlier posts, above, that the Bible says something but that it doesn't mean what is written - it means something else. That's not just figurative speech - that's ambiguity. And yes, I'd agree that one will find that throughout the Bible. And one doesn't need to justify that by saying the Bible will only be found to be ambiguous by lifting a verse or two out of context.

You've studied the Bible, and you know all this. You've chosen to believe and interpret a certain way. Which is perfectly find by me. But I do take issue with your insistence that your interpretations and beliefs are the only real truths and that if one doesn't believe as you do and become "born again" one is going to endure hell for enternity.

[pattygreen 5]

Backing up a little bit, you argue in some of your earlier posts, above, that the Bible says something but that it doesn't mean what is written - it means something else. That's not just figurative speech - that's ambiguity. And yes, I'd agree that one will find that throughout the Bible. And one doesn't need to justify that by saying the Bible will only be found to be ambiguous by lifting a verse or two out of context.

Yes. I am saying that the bible will only be found ambiguious by lifting a verse or two out of context. One who has read it all as a whole can easily see that there are 3 kinds of languages in the bible. Figurative, Symbolic, and Literal. Figurative language has meaning that is made clear by the context. Symbolic language is explained either in the same chapter or somewhere else in the bible. The rest of the language in the bible is to be interpreted literally, according to the customary rules of grammar and rhetoric. That is, we are to read the bible as we would read any other book, letting it say what it wants to say and not allegorizing or spiritualize its meaning. It is this false method of of interpreting scripture that has led to the origin of so many religious sects and denominations. We should never misinterpret, misapply, or dislocate the scripture. The trouble is that men are not willing to let the scriptures say what they want to say. This is largely due to their training, environment, prejudice, or desire to make the scripture teach some favorite doctrine.

You've studied the Bible, and you know all this. You've chosen to believe and interpret a certain way. Which is perfectly find by me. But I do take issue with your insistence that your interpretations and beliefs are the only real truths and that if one doesn't believe as you do and become "born again" one is going to endure hell for enternity.

There is only one way to interpert this saying of God:

"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." John 3:3.

It's not like being born again is such a difficult thing. Put your faith in God to save you through his son, Jesus, who gave his life to take the punishment for your sins so you wouldn't have to. That's all. Believe it and you will go to heaven. The sad thing is that so many let this life slip away and refuse to be a part of their own creators family. Why? I don't know.

[BJean 16]

The reason you don't know, can't understand, is because you are not open to other knowledge or truth than the one you are convinced is singularly correct.

[pattygreen 5]

Not true. I have studied most of the major faiths in the world. Only the Christian faith could be true. It's the only one that when I embraced it, the living God came to dwell within me.

[MissBandy 0]

Not true. I have studied most of the major faiths in the world. Only the Christian faith could be true. It's the only one that when I embraced it, the living God came to dwell within me.

When you say "studied", what exactly do you mean by that? Read some brochures? Went to meetings? Read the Torah/Koran/Book of Mormon/etc?

Just Curious.....

[KartMan 58]

I heard that rumor. I think it is something some good humored Dems floated out there just to be funny. I'm not sure that the Republicans are THAT dumb. But geez, they did run her for V.P. and actually used him for V.P., so nothing's impossible. You know a photo with those two with shotguns is a true dream ticket for the neocons.

I think it’s just a rumor. For it to be true it would have to be Palin for Pres and Cheney for VP. He has a proven record of being the brains behind the jacka$$.

[pattygreen 5]

When you say "studied", what exactly do you mean by that? Read some brochures? Went to meetings? Read the Torah/Koran/Book of Mormon/etc?

Just Curious.....

I have read the book of Mormon, I have read the Jehovah's witnesses bible. I have read many, many, many books on all faiths. I have researched Islam. I have read parts of the Quaran? Did I spell that right?....I have personally known a follower of Buddah and have come to understand his beliefs through him and his practices. I have a very close indian friend who converted to christianity from The Hindu religion and have spoken with her extensively on the Hindu religion amny times. I was raised in the Catholic church, and fully understand their doctrine. I ahve read books entitled "all the religions of the world".

[BJean 16]

The fact that you're convinced that your faith is real to you is not in question as far as I'm concerned. Nor is the fact that you've read various other religious literature or spoken with people of other faiths.

People who believe they have been abducted by aliens is very real to them as well. Doesn't mean that they didn't experience an event in their head that was a few synapses short of normal brain function though. Just like folks who see ghosts. There are even ghostbusters that go about chasing out the little devils. There are priests who are summoned sometimes to cast out the devils and ghosts and demons when there's been an infestation. So there are all kinds of situations that we could discuss here and argue the validity of people's personal experiences.

I have no doubt that when I hear someone say they have talked with God and he has spoken to them and people who say they have seen him, that it is perfectly real to them. But it is a condition (IMHO) that is present in their brains that makes it so real.

For those who talk to and see God, the elation they feel is real, the peace they feel is real. Just as the fear someone experiences when they've seen a ghost; the fear and the terror they experience is real. But they are feelings. Mentally induced feelings. Convincing to be sure, but not actually REAL. All IMHO, of course.

[KartMan 58]

Totally agree Bjean. I too believe that people really do believe in their own hearts that their own religious experience are real.

Patty, with all due respect to your beliefs, I have to agree with BJean. You see, for me, faith or someone else’s account of a miracle is just not enough for me. It’s not that I am cynical (well maybe a little:sneaky:), it’s just my analytical nature. Please don’t make another analogy about not seeing air, yet believing in that or asking me to prove the existence of Abe Lincoln based on old history books. You know that those are hollow comparisons and really do a disservice to your argument.

[Unforgettable 0]

The fact that you're convinced that your faith is real to you is not in question as far as I'm concerned. Nor is the fact that you've read various other religious literature or spoken with people of other faiths.

People who believe they have been abducted by aliens is very real to them as well. Doesn't mean that they didn't experience an event in their head that was a few synapses short of normal brain function though. Just like folks who see ghosts. There are even ghostbusters that go about chasing out the little devils. There are priests who are summoned sometimes to cast out the devils and ghosts and demons when there's been an infestation. So there are all kinds of situations that we could discuss here and argue the validity of people's personal experiences.

I have no doubt that when I hear someone say they have talked with God and he has spoken to them and people who say they have seen him, that it is perfectly real to them. But it is a condition (IMHO) that is present in their brains that makes it so real.

For those who talk to and see God, the elation they feel is real, the peace they feel is real. Just as the fear someone experiences when they've seen a ghost; the fear and the terror they experience is real. But they are feelings. Mentally induced feelings. Convincing to be sure, but not actually REAL. All IMHO, of course.

I also agree with BJean here as well.

I also could care less if that belief is wrong, too. Even if you really did talk and see God, it doesn't change my own personal beliefs. And I still think it's ignorant to think that there is only one right way, and anyone who doesn't believe is wrong.

[plain 12]

I heard that rumor. I think it is something some good humored Dems floated out there just to be funny. I'm not sure that the Republicans are THAT dumb. But geez, they did run her for V.P. and actually used him for V.P., so nothing's impossible. You know a photo with those two with shotguns is a true dream ticket for the neocons.

Oh man, I can only hope this is true. That would be my dream ticket.