Poll: Question For Pro-choicers?.

[Carrie_C 9]

Maybe they don't answer them for a reason.

[gadgetlady 4]

Maybe they don't answer them for a reason.

The reason being . . .?

I'm happy to have the discussion via PM if someone doesn't want to get into it publicly. But when a statement is made, a question is asked about that, and the question is never answered, it leads me to believe that a reasonable and logical answer isn't available. I very firmly believe that to educate ourselves we need to be exposed to ideas and question our preconceptions, and someone who is unwilling to look at the other side of an issue for fear that their arguments might not stand up to scrutiny is doing themselves a disservice.

That being said, I don't feel very good that this has all come down to what feels like an attack on losingjusme. That was absolutely never my intention when I asked the question. My intent, if the question wasn't answered, was not to come back to it again and again and again, and I would not have done so if others did not bring it up. It is well within her rights to just plain not answer the question.

[BJean 16]

Maybe she is away for the weekend. Who knows.

The questions that you asked gadget, have been answered by a number of people over the very long course of debate on this subject. Each and every time someone does take the time to answer those questions, and the answers are not ones that you can fully appreciate, they are attacked and there is post after post with links of everything from bloody photos to raging theories on how slavery is just the same as abortion.

Why should anyone at this point wish to get into that with you?

[Carrie_C 9]

Maybe she is away for the weekend. Who knows.

The questions that you asked gadget, have been answered by a number of people over the very long course of debate on this subject. Each and every time someone does take the time to answer those questions, and the answers are not ones that you can fully appreciate, they are attacked and there is post after post with links of everything from bloody photos to raging theories on how slavery is just the same as abortion.

Why should anyone at this point wish to get into that with you?

That was my point exactly. Would it have really mattered if she had answered the question? You would have just told her she was wrong, just like you believe everyone else is.

[gadgetlady 4]

Would it have really mattered if she had answered the question? You would have just told her she was wrong, just like you believe everyone else is.

I would have liked to dialogue with her about it; why is that so bad? She is entitled to her opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I don't believe "everyone" is wrong, but I do believe there are people who use flawed logic -- on both sides of the issue.

[gadgetlady 4]

The questions that you asked gadget, have been answered by a number of people over the very long course of debate on this subject.

That is not the case; very few people have answered the question I asked. In fact, I can think of only one. Other questions have been addressed, yes, and discussions have been plentiful, but I was asking one particular person why she felt a particular way. Her answers may be very different from what yours would be, as her opinions on this matter do differ from yours in other nuanced ways.

[BJean 16]

If she hasn't answered your questions, gadget, how could you possibly know if her answers are different from mine in any way?

You are looking for opportunities to load up your ammunition and fire away. She may be new enough to this debate that she doesn't know that, but I have a feeling that she does know it and, like many others, is not willing to give you that opportunity.

Nighty nite.

[Carrie_C 9]

What question was it that you asked everyone gadget?

[gadgetlady 4]

What question was it that you asked everyone gadget?

Losingjusme indicated that she could never have an abortion, and she told her doctors that it didn't matter what the results of her various chromosomal tests were, that she would not abort. What she said was, "if the life is not viable, _I_ am not the one to decide that."

Here are the questions I asked, with #1 being the one that people won't often answer (#2 was specific to losingjusme's situation):

Two separate questions: 1) why do you think you could never have an abortion?, and 2) if you are not the one to decide if the life is viable or not, as the mother of that life, then who is? And if it's someone other than you who should be making that decision for you, the mother, why is it OK for other mothers to decide to end that life?

And you know what? I'm going to tell you why I ask these questions -- just so no one can accuse me of "loading my ammunition and getting ready to fire." The reason I ask women who say they could never have an abortion themselves but think other women should be able to is to get them to think about the reasons they couldn't do it. There are numerous reasons women say this, but one of them can be because they understand the unborn baby to be a human life and they don't think it's their right to take that life. Surprisingly, however, even though they will identify the baby as a human life, they still hold that it is ok for others to undertake actions to end that life. This, to me, is akin to the argument of, "I don't believe in slavery but if someone else wants to own a slave that's OK with me." Sometimes (certainly not always) it is as easy as pointing out this juxtaposition of beliefs that will cause someone to change their mind on the matter.

Contrary to what everyone's been screaming at me recently, I don't try to browbeat people into agreeing with me. That doesn't mean that I don't try to make my point or draw them into my way of thinking, through logical and factual information, but I believe I do it in a very level-headed manner. I know those who are rabidly pro-abortion don't see it that way, but so be it. Now, if someone's saying I'm "in favor of suppressing women" or some such other nonsense, I tend to respond back in kind (perhaps to my detriment).

I have been involved in the pro-life movement for many years, and I have seen both women and men change their minds on the issue simply by being shown the stages of fetal development. I debated a California State Assemblywoman at a university many years ago, and when I was done a woman approached the desk and said she came in "pro-choice" but, after hearing the facts about what goes on in the womb, wanted to know how to volunteer to help stop abortion. It happens.

I do not believe that everyone will react this way. But I do believe that there are a lot of preconceptions that go along with how people view the issue of abortion in this country, and that some people will change their minds when they are asked some pretty basic questions.

So there you have it. I like to challenge people to think about their beliefs; I know from biology that human life begins at conception, I believe very strongly that life at every stage is an inalienable right, and I also believe that regardless of the social and often heartbreaking reasons that mothers seek abortions, there is no justification for taking another human life despite one's circumstances.

[gadgetlady 4]

Sorry for the novel, but I'm a bit tired of being portrayed as someone who was trying to deceitfully lure someone else into a trap just so I could say "gotcha!". Unless people are attacking me, my goal is to ask questions in the hopes of causing introspection.

[Carrie_C 9]

Two separate questions: 1) why do you think you could never have an abortion?, and 2) if you are not the one to decide if the life is viable or not, as the mother of that life, then who is? And if it's someone other than you who should be making that decision for you, the mother, why is it OK for other mothers to decide to end that life?

Well, I don't think I can answer the first question, because I can't say for sure that I could never have an abortion, because I just don't know if I could or not. I know that I do not want kids, I have no desire to be a mother, so if my birth control failed and I became pregnant, I can't say for sure that I would or wouldn't have an abortion. It would depend on my feelings at the time, if it ever were to happen. And if I became pregnant from rape, I don't know that I would want to carry the pregnancy to term. I have never been in that situation, so it is hard for me to say either way. But I do believe, regardless of when life begins, that abortion should be an option to women, especially in these circumstances.

As for the second question, I guess most prochoicers believe as I do, that abortion is a personal and private matter, and it is really no one else's business, other than the woman and her doctor. I don't believe women make the decision to have an abortion without thinking it through, and I can imagine that it is a very hard choice to make, one that I hope I never have to make.

[gadgetlady 4]

And if I became pregnant from rape, I don't know that I would want to carry the pregnancy to term. I have never been in that situation, so it is hard for me to say either way. But I do believe, regardless of when life begins, that abortion should be an option to women, especially in these circumstances.

I completely understand that opinion; it seems particularly unfair for a woman to have to carry a child of rape. I would be quite happy were abortion banned but for situations of rape and incest (I wouldn't agree with the exceptions, but I would support such a law and would probably stop being vocal on the matter at that point).

As for the second question, I guess most prochoicers believe as I do, that abortion is a personal and private matter, and it is really no one else's business, other than the woman and her doctor.

I understand that opinion, but what losingjusme said in her original post was "if the life is not viable, _I_ am not the one to decide that" -- and my question was if she is not one to decide that (if she believes it to be a personal and private matter with her doctor), then who is?

(I have to reiterate again that I feel distinctly uncomfortable dissecting losingjusme's post without her input.)

I don't believe women make the decision to have an abortion without thinking it through

Now that I can speak to from experience. Mothers facing unplanned pregnancies are often scared, just plain terrified, and will often grasp at anything to get out of the situation. I have sat with these women on numerous occasions, women who have made the choice to abort and women who have made the choice not to, and they often feel rushed and pressured and scared and ambivalent. They can easily rush into, or be pushed into, a decision that they will later regret. They look for reassurance from abortion clinic works who may lie to them about fetal development or the complications of abortion. I am not saying all clinic workers do this, but the reports of this happening are too frequent to be ignored. The abortion industry regularly fights proposed laws requiring a waiting period and/or informed consent in the way of factual presentation of fetal development or the requirement that mothers are shown their ultrasounds prior to aborting.

I was recently talking to a woman who told me a story about how she had been trying to get pregnant for years, went into a clinic for a pregnancy test (this was many, many years ago when test results were not quick), and while she was waiting for the results, was brought in for counseling. She was asked if she was rich, did she know how much a baby would cost, and she was literally made to doubt her own decision to keep a baby that she was 100% planned. You have to remember that pregnancy is one of the most hormonal and emotional times of a woman's life.

Do some mothers enter an abortion clinic 100% sure of their decision, unemotional and determined? Of course they do. But it is a misrepresentation of the facts to imply that all of them do. You can get more information about this at: Silent No More Awareness Campaign. I just randomly picked two testimonials which you can read at BABY CORY DESERVED MORE REPRESENTATION and Barb, OH that speak to the issue of a woman's not understanding exactly what she's getting herself into.

It is also very instructive to listen to the testimonies of former abortion clinics and clinic workers, because they were once the providers and now they are pro-life. It takes something to make that happen. You can get more information at Meet the Abortion Providers.

I appreciate your taking the time to answer the questions. I hope my responses make sense and I hope you don't feel like I've raked you over the coals, as I am generally accused of doing.

[Carrie_C 9]

"It is also very instructive to listen to the testimonies of former abortion clinics and clinic workers, because they were once the providers and now they are pro-life. It takes something to make that happen. You can get more information at Meet the Abortion Providers."

I have been to that site before and read a lot there, it is interesting. No, I don't feel raked over the coals. I agree that women need to know the truth. They need to know fetal development, and all the facts, and then be able to make an informed decision without being pressured one way or another.

[gadgetlady 4]

See? We can have a rational discussion without ratcheting up the rhetoric. Let's see what happens tomorrow

[losingjusme 12]

Ok gadget. I apologize for assuming that your questions were questions you were using to bait Losingjusme so that you could counter whatever her answers were with the same kind of propaganda that you have used for months, (or is it years?), on the other thread. They somehow just sounded so very familiar.

sorry... i must have missed a question???

Maybe she is away for the weekend. Who knows.

or ummmm.... i made another sort of (board related) ahem - choice? yeah, that must be it...