Intimacy

[Nina_S 1]

I completely respect your opinion. For myself however, I have let go of my anger and even hatred but I haven't forgiven either of the violators. I personally can't get my head around forgiving someone that doesn't believe they need to be forgiven much less have any desire to ask for it. For myself I feel that letting go of the anger, shame and guilt was enough. I only mention this as my mom continues to preach that forgiving the violators is an absolute must whether or not they want it. She believes I'm only deluding myself in saying that I have moved on if I don't forgive them. I am NOT implying that you have said or hinted at any such thing and am not offended by your post. But I still wanted to post that I didn't feel the forgiveness had been necessary for me in my own situation.

Diane,

The forgiveness is for YOU! It is not about the other person at all. They may never own up to it let alone apologize. Forgiveness frees you, you can replace that unforgiveness with so much joy and happiness as opposed to holding on to the ill feelings. Diane, please, let me make it clear that I am not posing an argument at all - I have lived it!

I am not sure if you are a Christian or not but I like Joyce Meyer. She first taught me about forgiveness - she was sexually abused by her father who never admitted to it once she told. Her mother tucked her head in the sand. Today both of her parents live in her house becuase of age and she provides care. He still has never owned up to what he did - that is forgiveness! She also has a book The Power of Forgiveness that touches on why we must forgive. You can find it on Amazon & you can view an excerpt....[ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0446532495/ref=sib_dp_pt/105-2013310-4479667#reader-link]Amazon Online Reader : The Power of Forgiveness: Keep Your Heart Free[/ame]

Nina

[gadgetlady 4]

I wonder how many of you that have been through this as I have notice that if you have children you watch a little closer, you notice a little more. Do you know what I am saying. I have a DD that is 7yrs old and I am so cautious with her. I want so much to try and spare her from anyone violating her. I am not around my grandfather much, and he is very elderly, but I remember the day very clearly that I saw him hold my DD for the first time and it made me wince harshly. Don't get me wrong no matter how old he is he will NEVER be alone with my child. I just wondered if I am alone in this with our children or if everyone does it....

BTW, this thread has really changed, from marriage problems to this, but I can't help but to wonder if for some us they are related????? JMO...

As I said, I was never abused but three very close friends were. I have two daughters, ages 7 and 10. When the first one was born, one of my friends (who had been repeatedly abused by family and strangers as a child) told me to always have my girls wear shorts under their dresses because the sight of little girls' underwear turns some pervs on. Ever since then, my girls wear shorts under skirts and dresses as a matter of course. It is part and parcel of their wardrobe; they are never without it and they don't think twice about it. They just always wear shorts.

Another of my friends who was abused has a 10 YO son (her oldest) and she never lets him go to the bathroom alone. She'll stand outside the door and talk to him through the mens' room door, or sing, or ask him to sing, or whatever.

So the short answer is yes. Not having experienced abuse myself but having talked to my friends about it repeatedly, it has changed what I do and certainly what they do.

And the other short answer is also yes. How could sexual abuse as a child NOT affect the marriage relationship? Most especially if healing has not taken place. Sex is such a powerful thing and has so many triggers and learned responses. It goes deep into the psyche. Every sexual experience you have had, good or bad, has an effect.

[monk 0]

I was going to comment that a lack of intimacy in a marriage adds more pain. I do not blame myself as I was always a giving and enthusiastic person between the sheets. What makes it more hurtful for me was even though I was able to be this way with all my baggage, I was sexually rejected by my husband.At some point I just stopped being attracted to him in that way. I think: too little, too late.He seems to want to get frisky now that I can't be bothered. I did suffer greatly at first and blamed myself. Why is it that we can enjoy oral stuff but when he gets near me for straight sex the noodle is done. Very bad for the head.I DO realize it has been HIS problem but after 28 years I really don't care if he fixs it. The shoe is now on the other foot.I weigh the lack of passion against everything else we share and I would never leave him. (Or cheat for that matter)

[rroswelltx 1]

My DH lack of sexual drive, I think hurts me more because of my past, the rejection thing seems to intinsify in my mind I think, he is rejecting me cause I'm not worthy. When it is like you said HIS problem....

[gadgetlady 4]

I did read in a previous post that someone felt that porn was a cause for sexual violence.

Please don't misunderstand. I never said porn causes sexual violence. I said I heard a speaker who said there is not one single documented case of sexual violence for which the perpetrator did not use porn. It is not necessarily a causal relationship but rather a situation where the trigger of porn can enhance the propensity of an already violent person to act out in a particular way.

[cathgr8 1]

OK, I think many of us have danced around this, but no one is really acknowledging the possibility. Do you think that many of us former molestees have chosen men who may have appealed to us because they were not all that aggressive sexually, because they were gentlemen, treated us with deference, etc.? I remember my late husband once saying "I have just bever been all that into sex" after one of our discussions many years into our marriage. It didn't occur to me until later that maybe I sensed that and that's why I felt safe enough to have a relationship with him. And my own feelings about sex were pretty conflicted too, but then as I matured and felt more at ease, I surpassed him in desire, and his lack of interest started to feel like my failing. Just a nagging thought.

[Nina_S 1]

Please don't misunderstand. I never said porn causes sexual violence. I said I heard a speaker who said there is not one single documented case of sexual violence for which the perpetrator did not use porn. It is not necessarily a causal relationship but rather a situation where the trigger of porn can enhance the propensity of an already violent person to act out in a particular way.

Gadgetlady,

I apologize. I did understand what you were saying in terms of "trigger" versus "cause" - my wording was off. Sorry.

Nina

[TheGh0st 9]

Nina,

I am not trying to argue with you either. I find your posts very supportive, meaningful and completely appropriate to this topic. I hope to see many more posts from you.

When it comes right down to it we may be in much more of an agreement than it first appears. I think it may be more a matter of definition, before posting this response I decided to look up the actual definition of “forgive” on the internet. Below are several definitions I found.

Definitions for Forgive: (as found over the internet)

1. to release (a person) from liability for an offense.

2. to free a person from their guilt, or blame, or from their consequences

3. to cease to feel resentment against

The first two are the definition I always thought of and were/are the reason I am unwilling to say that I have “forgiven” my abusers. But the 3rd definition “to cease to feel resentment against” was a definition I had never heard before for “forgive”, and I have ceased to feel any resentment towards them years ago. I am still uncomfortable using the word forgiveness for how I feel towards them but I do believe that my ability to embrace that 3rd definition was a necessary step in healing.

Yes, I am an active Christian, though I do not claim to be a “perfect” one for truly no one can be. And sometimes, yes, my refusal to state I’ve “forgiven” my transgressors does strike me as possibly not what Jesus taught. Then again in the parable below it is interesting to note the servant that was forgiven by the king was not forgiven until he fell down and begged for it, though I highly doubt that was the message I was suppose to take from it.

Quote: Matthew 18:20-35 (New Living Translation)

Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor

21 Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

22 “No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

[monk 0]

<p>Nina and Diane, I really envy your faith but it is not something you can make up. I was raised in a church from a crib to 12th grade and was very involved.At some point in my teenage years I grew very angry that no mater how hard I prayed the terrible things just kept on happening. I've gone from being a teenage atheist to an adult agnostic.I am very spiritual and believe in an afterlife.I feel like a hypocrite in church as I do not have straight biblical beliefs.I lead a very Christian life and I know what goes down comes around.</p>

In response to why we pick the men we do, I definitly picked mine because his first thought was not to get in my pants but to get to know my mind. I was so relieved to find such a person who was good looking, made me laugh and loved me just for who I was.I started to resent him after the marriage but I saw what I had and choose it. You know the old saying, you don't marry to change people into what you want them to be. Big mistake, rarely happens...

[Nina_S 1]

Diane,

I have ceased to feel any resentment towards them years ago <<< That's it right there!! That's all I hoped for you and you are already there.

I surely hope that I did not offend you and I definitely did not intend to question your faith.

Nina

[TheGh0st 9]

Nina - No offense taken nor did I think you were questioning my faith. I am really glad you have joined in this board. It is good to get a wide range of views here.

Monk - I completely respect your position and would never presume to believe it my place to tell you that you should feel or behave any differently. I hope you don't think I was trying to push my religious beliefs onto you or anyone else. I actually hesitated posting the biblical quote for fear it might be insensitive to some but decided that by not posting it I would have been behaving more as if I was ashamed of my faith.

[monk 0]

Diane, as I stated before, I admire your faith and I envy it. I wish "the spirit" could take to me and poof I would have your faith. Doesn't happen. I once asked a nun a lived next to (french, I could here her phone coversations on my baby moniter but couldn't understand a darn thing) how to find my faith and have her beliefs. I told her I went to church and felt like a stranger. All she said was that I was in the right place...joined a church and all they were interested in was how much money I was willing to donate.

[Nina_S 1]

<p>Nina and Diane, I really envy your faith but it is not something you can make up. I was raised in a church from a crib to 12th grade and was very involved.At some point in my teenage years I grew very angry that no mater how hard I prayed the terrible things just kept on happening. I've gone from being a teenage atheist to an adult agnostic.I am very spiritual and believe in an afterlife.I feel like a hypocrite in church as I do not have straight biblical beliefs.I lead a very Christian life and I know what goes down comes around.</p>

Monk, I don't know that my faith is one to be envied because God knows I have questioned Him a number of times. Who's to know what the future holds. I have been hypocritical at least 10 times today, oh well. I do know that what is most important is what you do and you have touched many lives (add me to the list). You have values and morals - that counts.

Faith is not belief. Belief is passive. Faith is active. ~ Edith Hamilton

[monk 0]

Just luv ya, thanks for the boost Nina

[nume130 0]

BTW, this thread has really changed, from marriage problems to this, but I can't help but to wonder if for some us they are related????? J

I think we should let this thread lead us where it needs to go.

I agree with you Ghost that the third definition of forgiveness is vital. By applying this forgiveness to our situation we can start to move forward. By doing this, the perv is no less at fault, no less deserving of punishment etc.

We do it for ourselves.