Non believers

[kwigillingok 177]

Neither of my parents were overly religious and I can count on both hands the number of times I went to church as a child. My mom grew up with a mother who was a religious fanatic, everything was about the church and she sent tons of money to those TV evangelists. Nothing my grandma does is without religious undertones even to this day. She's a hypocrite though, doesn't live the kind of life she tries to preach to everyone about.

My dad was raised to go to church and he believed in God until the day my brother took his own life.

Personally I've never been able to wrap my head around the fact that there's a God that allows some really crappy stuff to happen to good people, or innocent children and people just say it's God's will. Hell, I don't remember most of my childhood because of a "god loving man" who also really loved little girls.

So, I don't believe in God. Sometimes I wish I did, because I've seen people's faith get them through some pretty horrific life struggles but it's just not in me.

[clk 3,519]

Butter, I must say I love the idea you put out there - that people needed to realize that you could be moral and decent without having a religion.

That's a huge gap for many fundamental folks. Many seem to think that the religion is what makes you moral and decent and that without it, you can't possibly be a good person! "But what will keep us from raping and pillaging and murdering our neighbors, if not God?" How ridiculous!

My dad was raised to go to church and he believed in God until the day my brother took his own life.

Personally I've never been able to wrap my head around the fact that there's a God that allows some really crappy stuff to happen to good people, or innocent children and people just say it's God's will. Hell, I don't remember most of my childhood because of a "god loving man" who also really loved little girls.

So, I don't believe in God. Sometimes I wish I did, because I've seen people's faith get them through some pretty horrific life struggles but it's just not in me.

I'm sorry about both your brother and your childhood experiences.

I learned when I was struggling though rough times of my own that any life crisis - any really serious struggle - can make or break faith. I grew up absolutely not believing in the idea of a God that has a personal stake in individual lives. Much like you say, it simply wasn't possible to reconcile what I was experiencing with a personal God that intervenes, strengthens or supports. The conflicting religions of my parents didn't help. Later, when my daughter died I started to wonder if there might be something out there. I think that mostly, it was a desire to feel like there was something else - some way I could see her again - that made me even begin to question if there could be more to the idea of God.

I don't really know what I believe. I do not believe that any book on earth was written by God or because God instructed a man to write those words down. I also do not believe that the rituals and practices people follow are necessary, either because they were commanded or because they're a form of salvation. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell or an afterlife that we can comprehend.

I'm still Jewish, mind, but that's mostly because I make the best ever chopped liver, fluffy and sweet challah and some mighty fine matzo ball Soup. Also, I know some Yiddish songs and some Hebrew prayers.

But all of that aside, this idea that so many other bereaved parents had in my support group - that there was somehow comfort to be had in my child dying, that it was "for a reason" (truly the most trite, meaningless and frankly, repellent thing anyone could ever say to a grieving individual), that I'd see her again because "she was in heaven smiling down on me" - it was completely foreign to me. Like, in order to believe in God (which I still am not sure I do) I have to find a way to justify what happened to my baby or believe that it wasn't a forever thing. To my mind, if it were real and if what people were saying was true, I wouldn't feel a need to explain or justify or work out a way that God was there. People telling me that God allowed this to happen for a reason implies at the same time that he also could have prevented it. That's the type of believer I had an issue with.

The vague, Jewish response of my family was more along the lines of "bad things happen, we don't know why, sorry for your loss, let's eat."

I can relate to that far easier than the idea of some master plan that takes none of my feelings or suffering into account, except with the vague promise of some mystical afterlife.

~Cheri

[Butterthebean 8,146]

.........

Personally I've never been able to wrap my head around the fact that there's a God that allows some really crappy stuff to happen to good people' date=' or innocent children and people just say it's God's will. ........[/quote']

This is my whole problem with religion exactly. And specifically, when people give god the credit for every little thing....including their weight loss on this very forum. If that's the case, then god certainly needs to own all the horrible things that have happened to good people like you, and continue to happen every day. I just can't reconcile a god of love allowing mass genocide, rape, child molestation, natural disasters and war. Maybe that's my problem with authority showing through, but I just think god either has to take credit for all of it or none of it. And excusing the horrible things because its "god's plan".....that's a hard pill to swallow.

My wife on the other hand is ok with a god who set us up to "sink or swim" so to speak. A "hands off" god who respects free will. But then she doesn't give credit to god for every little thing that goes right in her life. She has worked very hard for everything she has and she feels like god put her here and the rest was up to her.

I can understand this mindset and support it, but if that's the case, then what are we doing here? Is this all just a test? A dressed rehearsal for the hereafter? A tryout for the big leagues?

My FIL commented to me last year that riding a motorcycle was too dangerous, and that sooner or later it could be the death of me. I said "what do you care? If you're going to heaven, why prolong this life?" What's the point? Why are believers still scared to die?

[southernsoul 773]

This is my whole problem with religion exactly. And specifically, when people give god the credit for every little thing....including their weight loss on this very forum. If that's the case, then god certainly needs to own all the horrible things that have happened to good people like you, and continue to happen every day. I just can't reconcile a god of love allowing mass genocide, rape, child molestation, natural disasters and war. Maybe that's my problem with authority showing through, but I just think god either has to take credit for all of it or none of it. And excusing the horrible things because its "god's plan".....that's a hard pill to swallow.

I agree completely, Butter. If responsibility goes to a god for the good stuff, then it seems like the responsibility for the bad stuff should, too. I lost one of my closest friends very unexpectedly last year & was in complete shock when he died. Although he & his partner of 15 years had split two years prior, they had remained very close and both he & I were totally devastated. The visitation and funeral were held in the very small town my friend grew up in. I attended the services with my beloved friend's longtime partner, who also just so happens to be a very large black man. My friend's mother & stepfather adore both of us & were very welcoming, but you could see everyone else wondering who we were. The comments about this being God's plan and that God had called him home made me just want to throw up. As a gay man, he was unwelcome and reviled in this community, so it seemed to me the height of hypocrisy to observe his passing in this way. A couple of people actually introduced themselves to me & commented how much they had liked my friend, "despite that he was...you know." If I hadn't been so grief-stricken I might have slapped somebody. He would have hated the service, even as he understood that his wonderful mother knew of no other way to lay her son to rest.

I also volunteer as a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for kids in foster care who have been removed from their homes due to abuse or neglect. I have encountered a stepfather accused of molesting his stepdaughter who told me he would pray that God would show me the truth of the matter. (God didn't, but DNA sure did!). Another parent who beat her young son told me that she was only trying to make sure he grew up to be a good Christian man who did right every day. Neither of these things could possibly be part of a loving god's plan.

Soon I will become a licensed therapist, and I think I will struggle with helping a client who's faith is a critical part of his or her life. It is important to be respectful and non-judgmental, but since I do not share such a belief, I think it may be a challenge for me to incorporate a client's faith in the counseling process. In order to help a client I need to be able to meet them where they are, and the faith thing will be tough for me.

[lizv123 389]

Alright I'm gonna say it, I skimmed this and as its a current thread I'd like some input. I was raised Southern Baptist, hardcore-wash your feet Southern Baptist. But in my adolescence I felt it didn't fit me and researched other religions and beliefs realizing I agree with little pieces of all of them. Those pieces being what should be common sense and basic human nature: be nice. I'm a non-believer. 99% of the time. But as silly and illogical as I know it is, in sticky situations (my hospital stay, my friends cancer, etc) I find myself praying/talking to anything as an attempt to cover all bases. Does anyone else do this?

I mean at no point am I addressing a bearded man in the sky or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, just anyTHING or anyONE that may be there. Is that just the "programming" of my youth? I tend to think so.

[gamergirl 4,610]

The vague, Jewish response of my family was more along the lines of "bad things happen, we don't know why, sorry for your loss, let's eat."

~Cheri

See?? THIS! We don't know why bad things happen, really we don't. Any one who tells you otherwise, has some explaining to do because then, WHY were those bad things allowed?

And I don't understand the Western concept of hell, very confusing. If you are a bad person, shoudn't Satan LOVE you and do all s/he can to make you comfortable and happy? Like, let you eat all you want without getting fat?? WHY is he torturing the sinners who were most influenced by him? Aren't those his peeps?

It's this kind of lack of logic that gets me. It's okay to believe whatever, but internal inconsistency is not helpful.

[No game 14,437]

Liz I was raised in a godless family. It wasn't always that way my brother was even baptized.

But things "fell apart" at some point before I was born.. Funny because my mother since the death of my brother is up gods butt so to speak.

And can't have a convo without telling someone (me) to surrender to god. This annoys me to all ends.

My inlaws? They attend church EVERYDAY! No joke. They had to overcome some of their teachings when their son came out as gay and then we had children out of wedlock.. These were major huddles for them, they could of gone crazy with disowning all of us. But they didn't.

When we take meals with them we pray for thanks for the food. I pray with them it means nothing to me one way or the other, it's their family tradition. It doesn't offend me.

I am offended when people tell me that god and religion is the only right way and my life will not be complete unless I accept him.

[gamergirl 4,610]

Alright I'm gonna say it, I skimmed this and as its a current thread I'd like some input. I was raised Southern Baptist, hardcore-wash your feet Southern Baptist. But in my adolescence I felt it didn't fit me and researched other religions and beliefs realizing I agree with little pieces of all of them. Those pieces being what should be common sense and basic human nature: be nice. I'm a non-believer. 99% of the time. But as silly and illogical as I know it is, in sticky situations (my hospital stay, my friends cancer, etc) I find myself praying/talking to anything as an attempt to cover all bases. Does anyone else do this?

I mean at no point am I addressing a bearded man in the sky or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, just anyTHING or anyONE that may be there. Is that just the "programming" of my youth? I tend to think so.

What is it they say? They are no atheists in war-time trenches? I think we may have some of that in all of us, I don't know.

I would love to believe that I will see my mom in an afterlife. Problem is, I don't really believe that. But I'd LIKE To believe that. How comforting would that be?

I think of prayer as self-fulfilling prophesies. There's a ton of research to in support of self-fulfilling prophesies. What you think will happen does because you sub-consciously enable them to happen.

So I do "pray" but I think what I am doing by that is the new-age version of visualizing success. And that can't be a bad thing, right?

[clk 3,519]

So I do "pray" but I think what I am doing by that is the new-age version of visualizing success. And that can't be a bad thing, right?

Yes, I relate. I, too, "pray" but it's more of a recounting of what I did that day and how I can improve tomorrow. It helps me focus and it helps me view things from a calm perspective. When I pray for other people, it's more of a way for me to talk myself through the situation and what I can do to help. And if I can't help? I just pray for things to work out for them and for them to have peace, not for some intervention or redirection from a mystical source.

But I admit that nostalgia or things we grow up with can leave us with traditions or habits that might conflict with our current beliefs. I find the seder at Passover tremendously enjoyable. It's crazy - it's long, and boring and everyone is starving by the time you eat. But it's something we did with my long since passed grandmother and great grandmother and I love the food and the tradition of the celebration, even if I don't view the story the same way as the other people at the table. I also find myself humming or singing songs that have been a part of my life since childhood - and if I think about it, many of them are prayers or scripture put to song or are related in some way to a religious holiday.

Old habits die hard, I guess.

~Cheri

[indecision 863]

I'm not sure what you would call my belief or non belief as some others have said in other posts. I question things mostly probably on both sides of any fence or situation. My parents were brought up in the Catholic Church and both had failed marriages very early in life. The Church excommunicated them for the divorces. Because of this we did not go to church when I was growing up. My mom took me a few times so I could experience it but that was it. I question things like why would they treat my parents that way? Why would I want to be a part of that? Why do some churches and religions need multi-million dollar facilities? Wouldn't a field do? Why did my wife's parents treat her the way they did since the were church going folks?

I also don't thank god or ask him why when a situation comes up. I look at it and learn from it on my own. To me I am the reason things happen to me whether good or bad. I am a moral upstanding productive citizen not because I went to church rather because it is just the right thing to do for myself and my family. I just do not need a group on either side to help me figure that out.

[gamergirl 4,610]

But I admit that nostalgia or things we grow up with can leave us with traditions or habits that might conflict with our current beliefs. I find the seder at Passover tremendously enjoyable. It's crazy - it's long, and boring and everyone is starving by the time you eat. But it's something we did with my long since passed grandmother and great grandmother and I love the food and the tradition of the celebration, even if I don't view the story the same way as the other people at the table. I also find myself humming or singing songs that have been a part of my life since childhood - and if I think about it, many of them are prayers or scripture put to song or are related in some way to a religious holiday.

Old habits die hard, I guess.

~Cheri

Oooh I LOVE the Seder meal! I find all of it very comforting and I didn't even grow up Jewish! I treat holidays as a way to spend time with family and loved ones eating good food, and enjoying the conversation.

We did have some traditions pre-surgery that I wonder how we will replace post. Every Christmas and Thanksgiving, the kids and I went to a Brazilian churasscaria. When I got married, my husband joined in even though it was strange for him to not have the traditional meal. All three of them luuurve pigging out there.

Now, it would be a bit odd to go eat half a sausage and then sit there getting bored while the kids eat for the next hour.

The two biggest questions on my 13-year old's minds when we told him about the surgery? Does this mean we won't be going to the Brazilian place anymore?! and Will you look different when you come back from the hospital? (I wish!)

So yeah, the traditions matter. It's not a religious thing I don't think, it's the stuff that doesn't change in an ever-changing world, and that comfort is not negligible.

[southernsoul 773]

Alright I'm gonna say it, I skimmed this and as its a current thread I'd like some input. I was raised Southern Baptist, hardcore-wash your feet Southern Baptist. But in my adolescence I felt it didn't fit me and researched other religions and beliefs realizing I agree with little pieces of all of them. Those pieces being what should be common sense and basic human nature: be nice. I'm a non-believer. 99% of the time. But as silly and illogical as I know it is, in sticky situations (my hospital stay, my friends cancer, etc) I find myself praying/talking to anything as an attempt to cover all bases. Does anyone else do this?

I mean at no point am I addressing a bearded man in the sky or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, just anyTHING or anyONE that may be there. Is that just the "programming" of my youth? I tend to think so.

Liz, I do the same thing sometimes. Usually when I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed or sad, I will issue out a wish/plea/hope for strength or calm or patience. Is that a prayer? I guess so. I'm not directing it anywhere in particular, except out into the universe. The last time I can remember feeling absolutely moved to pray in the traditional way I had been taught was on 9/11. It was such a horrific day, and the images were so overwhelming to absorb, I think my mind just needed to shut down & revert to the simplest form of comfort stored in my memory banks. I guess it can be called a form of programming from childhood, if your childhood included that. In the mental health field, we would call it a self-soothing behavior. But no matter what you call it, if it's calming and/or strengthening for you, then it's a good thing & a healthy behavior.

[gamergirl 4,610]

I love this very time I read it and I thought you guys would appreciate it as well.

"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy gets created in the universe, and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, every vibration, every Btu of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.

"And at one point you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell them that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.

"And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue the heat of our own lives.

"And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy's still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone; you're just less orderly.

"Amen."

Aaron Freeman

[TapSnap 357]

The two biggest questions on my 13-year old's minds when we told him about the surgery? Does this mean we won't be going to the Brazilian place anymore?! and Will you look different when you come back from the hospital? (I wish!)

Not the Brazilian place. lol. I miss fogo de chao, it was a awesome place.

Anyway

The other day some how religion came up among friends and some people we were hanging out with at the time. For a while I didn't say anything and didn't plan to say anything. I didn't think I had to I don't judge people on what they believe or not believe and my friends know I am not religious and they are fine with it. Well I have a atheist Bracelet on I got for donating money to a atheist website for the lady and here family that lost everything in the tornados. She's the one that came out as a atheist after Wolf Blitzer asked here if she thanks god for him letting her live. Anyway... One of the people we were talking to seen my bracelet and called me out on it. They said god loved me and that they would pray for me to find him. Well I have a very sarcastic/witty sense of humor. I said yes he loves us all so much that he created a place to torture us incase we don't love him back.

I then turned to the girl that was the one being so outspoken about her love for god and asked her does she follow every thing in the bible. She said she did and when she breaks a rule she prays for forgiveness. I kind of got a chuckle out of it and two people asked what was funny. I said I guess ill go do hell because I don't believe in god but you will be fine after break most of the rules in the bible because you pray.

I guess I am just get tired having to explain why I don't believe and have to answer how do you know that there isn't a god. But when I ask them the same question about believing in god and how you know he is real they said they have faith and the bible says so.

Tired of it.

[endless80 697]

I am a believer in something else apart from organized religion. I have a hard time verbalizing what it is other than the golden rule,and potentially a larger plan and that the Universe unfolds the way it should, but that's good enough to start with.

At the risk of angering some fundamentalists, I have to say in my case, lack of faith in a conventional God is not a choice. I kinda see it like being gay. Either you are, or you aren't. Either you are able to believe in God in the conventional way, or you can't. I've never succeeded in forcing it.

Being gay is not a choice but faith is. There is a difference.