BJean

What do you think that the plan entails, patty? The government just picking up the tab for eveyrone's medical care? Au contrare, mi amigo. Don't drink anymore of the kool-aide - it's getting to your brain.

Read my lips... go spend money! Yay President Obama for stimulating the economy! That's the best example you could set for Americans. Americans out of your frightened little shells, quitcher bellyachin' and get out and have some fun.

Weiner wrap a dog.

patty, I do not paint all Republicans with the same right wing extremist brush, but I do paint all right wing extremists with the same fanatical brush. I can understand your dismay with the decisions that President Obama has taken to undo some of the horrible policies that the previous administration put into effect that nearly put our country in the financial crapper. (The administration and the Republican dominated Congress, that is.) But President Obama is a learned man and he has been smart enough to glean every bit of wisdom available from the financial wizards in America before making his decisions. He knows that it may not work. He also knows that it has just as good a chance of pulling us out as the actions that earlier presidents used during recessions and depressions. I understand why you're freaking out. But calm down. If he didn't take some of the actions he's taken, things could have gotten much, much worse. He has promised that he will not approve any health care bill that we cannot pay for. And as for some of the money he's spent, like the cash for clunkers deal, he has high hopes that it will help stimulate the economy by getting some new cars sold. He may use similar plans to help revitalize other areas of the brain-dead economy. We should all hope that it works. And if it does, there will eventually be an economy boom - a rebound, if you will - that will make you whiners eat your words. Then once everything is booming again, if history serves us well, you'll put another Republican in office who will pull the same crap all over again and you'll be a deliriously happy camper. Patience, my dear.

kartman I agree that the way things have happened in the past regarding malpractice lawsuits got way out of control. Just like some facets of capitalism. Greed has a way of doing that to folks. But some of the people who are pro-tort reform would like nothing better than to make it illegal for people to sue for malpractice at all. It's a basic legal right - to hold someone accountable for gross negligence. And it needs to be said that is certainly not a panacea for providing better health care to the general public. It would primarily solve problems that the insurance companies have with enormous payouts for the doctors they insure who are charlatans. ("Quack" sounds so unsophisticated for people who have been through the educational process and yet still cannot practice safe medicine.)

Tort reform is a lot about insurance companies being able to keep more money. We shouldn't sacrifice individuals' rights in preference of the insurance companies bottom line.

I agree that the "letter" and pattyg's comments are inane and loaded with hyprocrisy. I was so grossed out all I could do was meet it with sarcasm. I am overwhelmed by the great responses that so many of you have made. I usually find myself alone in a debate such as this - except that kartman jumps in when he can't stand it anymore. And he always says it so much better than I. You have all made relevant points: cleo'smom, kartman, jennifer and others - you know who you are, and I sure do appreciate what you've posted! I especiallly agree with the fact that it appears that the right wing doesn't really care one whit about our government helping to provide us all with a better healthcare system. All they seem to be desperate to accomplish is to bash Obama and cloud the issues. These days they don't seem to be fooling so many people with their scary words and deeds. Nearly everybody is beginning to see them for what they are and realizing what they're up to. All this talk about tort reform being the answer is not correct either. We have to be very careful about tort reform. We shouldn't penalize people who have been maimed or killed by doctors who are guilty of malpractice by limiting their lawsuits. That's getting the whole thing bassackwards. The lawsuits can be handled better in our courts and frivilous lawsuits should be thrown out post haste, but don't let them fool you - tort reform isn't JUST about lawyers getting money!

Good man!! I've tried several times to give it up for Lent, but am always sucked back in with apparently no regard for inane, insane, absurd, anger-inducing content. Just shows you're a better man than I. Hang in with the exercise. It's a good steam letter offer. :w00t:

hey kartman! My rant on plain felt soooo good. It may not have made much sense, but I feel better. That's what counts right? 'cause it's all about me!! Go ahead, give it all ya got. You'll feel better. Btw, it's perfectly acceptible to slip in any rant you want. Especially if it's a personal attack. *grin*

Oh patty, aren't you the one who thinks capitalism is wonderful and perfect and the trickle down theory is just what it's cracked up to be? You champion the big money people because you think it will eventually be passed along to the po' folks? Spending money is what will help get us back on track. The moneyed folks need to be an example, is that what you're saying? Well, that's what they're doing. I seem to remember that you went on a vacation.

Hogwash! I couldn't disagee with you more. Of course you have every right to claim anything you wish about how lousy our government is. That sure don't make it the gospel.

You have such a good sense of humor, plain. But your condescending attitude really wears thin. You honestly think that Kinky is the best person for the job? Any job? Good luck with that. AnnNo, you're quite wrong about me. You proclaim that I am a die-hard Democrat who has no common sense or ability to choose the kind of candidate that I believe can do a good job and make a difference, beyond the party line. Just because you disagree with everything I say, you've compartmentalized me and well, I guess I just really wish you'd stick to the issues instead of trying to put a label on either me or pattyg. I have a sneaking suspicion that this being a moderator thing has for some unknown reason gone to your head. It seems to make you think you can go about correcting everybody's posts and making folks feel bad for saying what they believe. No, I haven't observed this in your recent posts necessarily, however I have been noticing it here and there and it is really weird. I know you don't care if you're liked but you gotta understand that we don't care if you like us either. We have every right to say what we think. You can disagree all you want, but dude, get over yourself. Correcting us is pretty silly. Even I was asked to be a moderator. Hit don't make you special or more intelligent or better able to use logic or reason than everybody else. Really.

"Yet though you've seen government failure after government failure coupled with fiscal irresponsibility on top of that failure, you seem to somehow believe that the government will do a better job of taking care of this mess than if some regulations and reform at the base level were implemented." Beth I believe we have no choice but for the government to get involved. Just like in the banking industry and housing industry and many other places that we have to muscle our way in to keep this country strong and to keep our citizens from being ground into the mud by the people who have the power to do it and stand to gain financially by doing it. We're not making this move to change the healthcare system because it is working well. We're getting government involved because the health care industry, including pharmacuticals, doctors, hospitals and the insurance industry can't do it for us. They have way too much to lose. And in fact, they are the ones who are fighting us every step of the way and they are the ones who have put a stop to changes in health care in the past. And on top of that, I do not believe that the government behaves irresponsibly like you say. We've worked in the government, in some of the biggest parts of the government and trust me, you only wish that private corporations had the kind of controls and transparency that most branches of the government have. It's very popular to bash the government. Fact is, we can't do without it and have the country that you say you're so proud to live in. I am not saying that the plan put forth in the House is what I would choose, if I had the chance. But I do believe that no plan is far worse than doing nothing and keeping things as they are. Could it be improved, hell yes. Will it be done? Probably not. And one reason is because there is so much B.S. that is out there muddying the Water. If we could handle this in a straight forward way - without lobbyists and palm crossing of big bucks, we could hash out a decent plan. I will admit that most people, by human nature, are afraid of change. But when you have to live with a medical system that is run by big money and you fight battles all the time just trying to get a doctor, the proper diagnosis and treatment, good safe care in the hospital, medications that are top-notch that you can actually afford, and an insurance company that won't cut you off if you get a recurrence of cancer, where your treatment is limited to what you can afford out of pocket (as happened with my school teacher sister, who subsequently died), it is easy to see that although change is scary, not making some major changes can threaten your health and even your life. We're stupid if we, as a country, don't understand that after years of dealing with the system the way it is. Just because it hasn't happened to you or one of your loved ones doesn't mean it isn't going on every single day.

plain since you say that, "Of course we need reform. It's how that reform will take shape and what the cost will be that divides" it would be beneficial if you could actually map out the plan that you and the brilliant minds you support, can git 'er done. People don't understand what is on the table right now and part of the reason is because people keep saying all kinds of stuff that might sound logical on the surface, but it is not logical. It is just chatter that clouds the real issues. No wonder people are so confused. I have not intimated that opposition to Obama is anything but political opposition. I can't imagine that everyone who opposes Obama and his political views is a racist. That's just plain stupid and I don't believe that for one minute. And that is very offensive that you would suggest that his race is the reason people don't agree with him. Of course there are racists in America, but it doesn't mean that people oppose the President because he is of a mixed race. If your response to my post is an example of how you go about explaining "... each of those seperately, if you want me to" don't bother. I'm pretty sure I understand where're you're coming from. First of all, you disagreed with me that we don't have the best medical care in the world. So, I don't think I need you to explain cost, availablity and quality for me. And secondly, you've talked a lot on this topic on various threads but I haven't read anything that leads me to believe that you have a clue how this "rotten in Denmark" system that we have will actually be fixed. And btw, the reason you keep hearing it brought up that people were not outraged by our former president, when he was indeed completely outrageous is because it is a very important part of our history. Is there some reason other than historical significance which causes everyone to continue to talk about Reagan, Kennedy, Carter and other past presidents and their behavior in office? We hear about Clinton, ad nauseum, and usually the reference has nothing to do with anything but his sexual indiscretions. So sit back and get used to it. You'll be hearing all about President Obama once he's out of office too. It's a part of our history and part of our learning experience if we are smart. And comparisons are always inevitable. We learn when we contrast and compare, right?

Uh the reason Ted Kennedy didn't do what he proposed is because it was only a proposal - it hasn't been put into action yet. Unfortunately people like Ted Kennedy are the people in the U.S. who can call the shots with their health care (if you'll pardon the pun). Most of us cannot. We're jerked around like puppets and we pay through the nose for the privilege. The interesting thing that you all seem to agree on is that the insurance companies are at the root of the problem. Do you think that if we tell them that they can't operate the way they've been doing it, they'll change the way they do business? And that action will revamp health care in America? Sure, and I have some beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you.

Just as I suspected... a closet LIBERAL! Muahahahahaha!

The point is, where was the outrage when something truly, truly outrageous was happening to us? Instead of complete and utter outrage when people are trying to put together something that will improve our lives so dramatically. I can't imagine that anyone among us doesn't understand the need for serious healthcare reform. When Cleo'smom said: "All of these arguments against health care reform are red herrings to divert attention away from the real issue which is that profit driven health insurers will still be able to do what they have always done: 1) sell policies 2) collect premiums 3) deny as many claims as they can get away with 4) make obscene profits. Why would they want to change any of this" she is totally on the mark. I can't understand why all Americans (except of course those whose income is from the insurance industry) aren't screaming for healthcare reform. It seems as if they have allowed their aversion to our current president overshadow good sense and the possibility of a policy that would improve health care costs and availability and even quality for this country of ours.

No, sorry dude, if Kinky ran again, no matter which party he graced his presence with, I wouldn't vote for him. I might consider his bottled salsa, but that's the best I can do. patty you never cease to amaze. Obama's trips abroad are in representation of our country. You know, the United States of America. Some of you got so used to George W's lack of meaningful, useful interaction with foreign countries, you've forgotten, if you ever did know, how beneficial it can be to our well-being as a nation. As for his other so-called "vacations" I don't think you have taken into consideration that in the first 100 days in office, Obama had spent more time actually working - being a productive president - than Dubya did in the first 4 years of his presidency. So where were you then? I remember the first year he was in office (beginning in January if I am correct) that he took the entire month of August off. Retreated to his little ranch in Tejas which the Americans paid major bucks to convert to a safe haven for him and his family. Why weren't you bellyaching about that expenditure? You obviously operate with such a double standard that it is laughable. And some LBT folks make claims that I am bad about being biased. You make me look like a piker. Btw, may I ask why you put the term "birthplace" in quotation marks when you referred to Hawaii as the place where President Obama was born? Are you one of those transparently nutty "birthers"? :thumbdown:

I never get involved in political discussions either but I read an email from a friend of mine in Montana and her report was quite different from the one pattygreen posted. She said that the protestors who were against Obama and his presidency were very boistrous and ugly. Only once protestors from the other side showed up did they behave at all. They were outnumbered and intimidated which was cool because they've been able to cause such a ruckus at earlier events that were scheduled for Congressmen to discuss the healthcare proposals but who were unable to field questions or even in some cases finish their talks because of the opposing, totally obnoxious people shouting them down. I think that real people who are sick to death of the healthcare debate being quashed by a few people who do not understand the questions much less know the solutions, are finally showing up in numbers and those anti-everything-related-to-Obama folks can't take what they've been dishing out. Also, did you know that Obama is allergic to shellfish? And I heard that the airport was the only venue that was able to handle the number of people who were expected to show up for Obama and we all know that there are no chairs in Montana and that's why they had to be flown in. Let's get the facts right folks. And if you don't forward this message to at least 100 people within the next 3 minutes, you're unAmerian, unpatriotic, not a Christian, and you undoubtedly are married to your brother.

she know what "headhuntah" means. And we all know how compliant ms. beth is.

Nah, clowns are complex carbohydrates - all that red fuzzy hair and that nose. Wonka, wonka. But don't let him blow seltzer down your gullett 15 minutes before and 2 hours after you eat him. That's cheating!

Said like a true wacko. Their answer to everything when they disagree with someone: hatefulness, death and destruction. ] When are you people going to get it? You LOST. Time for some serious changes. Grow up and deal with it in a constructive way, um kay?

Plum forgot you like the Kinkster. Pretty good indication that we will never be in the same ballpark, politically, so you and I have little common ground for a meaningful discussion on politics in Texas. But if you ever go to the ballpark in Arlington, give me a call. Although I shudder at the possiility of running into Dubya there. That would be so distasteful it could ruin a perfectly good day at the park.

Get a ladder... find some ribbon... find one of Plain's toyz... then do a Carradine imitation. BINGO! PB Cowabunga Kemosabe. What happens here, stays here. You filthy, filthy whoremongers. (anybody besides me stiffle a giggle when their boss sez she's gonna do a dog and pony show?)

Advice for a really, really PB, two words: bran muffin. You can trust me on this.