BJean

Wow, another red herring. congratulations, for I am sure you thunk up this nicotine thing as being the answer to the health care problem all on your own. patty your side says we are all for death panels and all kinds of dopey bull. Your side says we are socialists. You call us and Obama all kinds of unflattering things. Things that frankly are not true. No wonder we think that those who engage in this, instead of trying to seriously change the health care industry and solving the problem, are not too bright. That kind of name calling and the attempt to sideline the real issues by saying ALL government is bad, stop smoking and it'll fix health care, just invoke terms limits, limit malpractice lawsuits, etc., are extremely transparent. None of those things will solve the problem. The are important issues, but those things will not solve the problem. But you seem to be having fun, so have at it.

Oh kartman I guess I should apologize for calling you my "buddy" because you might very well not want to be considered my bud. I am sorry.

I'm with you buddy. Some of these folks are a lost cause.

Oh my I help, please oh please oh please? Think we can get someone like Ann Coulter for his running mate?

kateman, if only I had your strength.

Nothing I said suggests that God doesn't exist. I could worry about God's return to earth, but right now I'm much more worried about the religious zealots who threaten my existence. It is one thing to speak of righteousness and quite another to practice it. The interesting thing is that you and I disagree on what that consists of.

123crod: I'm not sure that there is a spiritual war going on. I believe it is more of a regligious war. The same kind of religious wars that we read about in the middle east and elsewhere. It revolves around the many citizens' in a country interpreting their Bible, or whatever writings that they believe they are meant to follow, each very differently. Take the Muslim religion, for example. Some Muslims believe that killing is a major sin. Other Muslims believe that to kill in the name of Allah, to get rid of the horrible infidels who go against Allah's teachings, will be praised by Allah and that if they die in martyrdom for Allah, they will be rewarded by having virgins handed to them in heaven. Right here in America, people who believe in the Bible certainly don't all agree either. Some believe that war is justified if they believe that some other ruler is a bad guy and in some way threatens our 'righteous' nation. Other believers in the Bible believe that Jesus taught us that killing is a sin and that no one should kill another human being, ever. Can you explain how we, as a nation, should be able to get along if we don't all agree on our basic religious beliefs? Are we destined to go to war - fighting within our own neighborhoods against those whose religious beliefs are so different from our own? How bad do you think it will have to get here in the United States before we choose to pick up arms and fight for our own personal interpretation of the Bible?

There is hell, but not a literal hell, eh? God is fire but not a literal fire. Whenever the Bible speaks of fire, it speaks merely of God's judgement, you say. Interesting. I always find it very interesting that you say you believe in the Bible - literally. And you argue that various translations over the years have not changed the meaning of the original words. You must believe, in order to justify your claim that one can believe that the Bible is literal and self-explanatory, that it contains no ambiguous messages. Imprisioning someone for life and separating them from society because they broke the law is, you say, the same as hell is meant to be interpreted in the Bible. With the understanding of course, that one will not be separated from society, but from God. Please explain to all of us how you have come to believe those things. Because it seems to me that you use the Bible to justify your interpretations, yet you say that the Bible can be taken literally because it has not been changed in any substantive way from the day it was written. But, my goodness, if we do take the Bible literally, God must indeed be real fire, as it is written, no? And I don't see how you can deny that there are mysterious passages in the Bible that you have to interpret in order to explain everything. Especially since you're interpreting some things in your post regarding what the Bible means about hell and fire. Tell us please, how do you know, for sure that God is not literally an all-consuming ball of fire? Take your time. We're in no hurry. :laugh:

patty I believe that YOU are sick of both parties and that some people share that illness. However many people are very happy with the Democratic party and have very high hopes that Obama can fix some of the horrible things that the Bush administration did to this country. And we have high hopes that problems can be fixed like improvement of our public edcuation system, like environmental protections enhanced, the health care system revamped, our infrastructure repaired and improved, tax incentives for people who do things to help green up America instead of the incentives to those who are simply motivated by greed, and much more. The Dems that are unhappy, as far as I'm concerned, are those who probably would only have been happy if the Democratic candidate was a male WASP. Who needs 'em!

Cleo's, well yeah, they get away with it and continue to do it because the media latches onto to it and makes a big deal out of it. I must say though, even though it makes sense to ignore them, it doesn't work And it works so well because if you want to believe something bad about someone, and you hear a lie about them, even if it is entirely implausible you decide that it is true and you repeat it to everyone you know. These clowns have been conditioned for years and years by Rush Limbaugh saying these things and getting away with it. Now they have it coming at them by different people, constantly. The liars and perpetuaters of the lies are in hog heaven. And the people who believe it all, without question, are incited into a frenzy of hate. Like one of the people who was commenting on all the lies about proposed health care changes said, the interesting part is that the right has some serious health care issues that they could be spending their time on. Issues that are actually important to a lot of people. Instead, they are trying to topple the man and in the meantime, those issues are being ignored. What a rip off for honest Republicans. Wait, isn't that an oxymoron?

Yeah kartman. It's like when you meet someone and you don't think they're very pretty and then you get to know them and they seem beautiful to you? Well that's the way it is with Palin, in reverse.

Hows come you got that crazy little red box thingy, patty?

patty's just trying to get people stirred up and discussing Glen Beck. He doesn't deserve one iota of anyone's time. Far be it from me to criticize someone's reading matter. I'd think it would go a long way toward converting patty to the Democratic causes. The Dems who have been obstructing progress are doing it simply because it gives them some power. In the end, they will vote the right way, and for the reason ya'll said. They want to get reelected. When Bush was in office, yeah all he had to do was tell 'em what he wanted and they fell in line. It was a Republican dominated Congress, folks. Besides, no one wanted to be on Cheney's "F U" list. The "You're Wrong" folks are crawling out of the woodwork and having a rally this weekend. We need to get out the fire hoses :-) Seriously though, it will be great to see who shows up so they can be easily identified. Think they're being encouraged to bring their guns. Even better. Maybe some of them will shoot off their pistolas and it'll be a good excuse for the gendarmes to return fire. They're selling tee shirts like hotcakes. We need to raise some of our own money with "Wrong Way Wilson" shirts. Seriously you all, why is anybody taking these clowns seriously? Btw, anyone notice how rough Sara Palin looks without her $100,000 wardrobe and her makeup and hair artists?

Cleo'sMom and HappyHomeCC are totally right - why don't we vote? I think many people don't vote because they are so busy working, taking care of their families and making ends meet, they don't want to spend the time researching the candidates. So they just sit back and take whatever they get. Most of them don't think it makes a lot of difference which party is in office anyway. Which is wrong, of course, but that's what a lot of people think. If our voting rights were taken away, we would begin to understand how important the right to vote really is. I feel a strong undercurrent today of a fast-emerging Independent party coalition. I've always said that there will never be enough Independent registered voters and money behind them to be a driving force in a national political race. However with the extreme right wing neocons take over of the Republican party, I am changing my tune. I think that there are a lot of moderate Republicans who feel they have no choice but to switch over to the Independent party. There may even be some moderate Democrats who join it as well. So maybe in 2012, it might just amount to something. I have to say that the longer President Obama is in office though, the more moderates will see that he is actually a relatively moderate president. Things are certainly getting very interesting. I am relieved that the media, due to last nights' outburst in the joint session, is finally reporting on how ridiculous and inappropriate the extremists are behaving.

I heard a Brit say today that their campaign time before an election is 4 weeks! I get goose bumps thinking about how great that would be for us. But kartman is right, that would give a huge advantage to incumbents because they already have exposure during the term they won. The interesting thing about term limit debates is that the congress will only do something if we rise up and influence the media to make them so uncomfortable that they seriously address the issue. But if they can't agree on something as basic and important as health care, just think what a can of worms would be for them to try to agree on term limits. That's like getting them to vote on giving up free postage for their mailings.

Didn't we borrow from China to keep the war in Iraq going? And patty must be very conflicted about that. She supports the war but is against borrowing for it. It is downright silly when someone says that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are keeping us safe. They think that by sending our troops over there to die, then the average American citizen or two thousand might be saved because we're keeping the terrorists off our soil. What about the thousands of American lives that have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan? Don't they count at all? Aren't they just as important as you and I or the people who worked in the World Trade Center? How can one say they are being patriotic by supporting a senseless war that is killing our men and women? That's what they think is caring about our troops and supporting them? Oh my.

I watched part of the Larry King interview John McCain last night. Interesting. Larry asked McCain what he thought about the president saying if people lie about what's in the healthcare bills and if they continue to make up stuff to scare Americans that he (Obama) is going to call them out on it. McCain said that he thought that was wrong of Obama and that he shouldn't have said that. But what Larry King didn't follow up with was why is it acceptable for people like Sarah Palin to go public with claims that are outrageous and untrue? Republicans obviously have no intention of reaching across the aisle (like last night when they sat there with their arms folded, grim-faced when everyone else was giving the president an ovation when he said that Americans deserve a better health care system) and refuse to work with Democrats to change a system that is not serving the American people and is only boosting the insurance companies' bottom line. This is a life and death situation that has become unfair and intolerable and Americans deserve better. We look to the congress and president for help. Republicans are refusing to engage and compromise and get something done. Americans should not put up with it!

Were you right wingers all proud of the way your people in Congress behaved last night? I'll bet you were. You probably think it was fantastic that one of your heros yelled out at the president that what he was saying was a lie. I hope you realize that the Republican's behavior last night exposed what they're all about. They are obviously in the pocket of the insurance companies since the president's remarks about making it illegal for them to not insure anyone with a preexisting conditiion were received by the Republicans with such disdain. Have you ever seen such sour looks and ugly demeanor before when a president has addressed congress? I never have. I heard one of the Republicans afterwards saying that the Democrats refused to include some of the Republicans proposals in the bills that are being considered and so they just aren't going to work with the Democrats on it. So it sounds like the Republicans are saying it's their way or the highway. In other words, the American people won't be getting any help at all from Republicans on ensuring that we have attainable and affordable health care. I hope Americans don't forget this mess when they go to the polls to vote for these clowns again and they toss the bums out.

Kat-thank you for clarifying it for me. I was really surprised that you would take that position and post something like that. I should have known better. I just got in a hurry and didn't realize that you were quoting someone. Sorry about that! In Florida when the powers that be did all the PR and talked people into voting for the lottery, they did it by telling us that a big piece of the money made from it would be put into the schools. But guess what? Yeah, they put a piece of the lottery pie into the schools but they also took away the money that the schools had been getting from taxes before the lottery. After the lottery was started the schools had even less to work with than before. It was a dirty lousy trick and I hope that the people in Florida have fixed it by now. New Mexico it seems, has a conscience and a concern for public education. I don't know if Bill Richardson had anything to do with getting it right there, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

You are totally spot on, Cleo'sMom! And everyone knows it. Why else would there be so many extremely personal attacks on the man and his wife? If it were really just about the decisions he's made and wants to make, there would be more substantive discussion about the specifics of these things. Instead what we hear is about his spending - period. No discussion of WHY he has done what he has done or how better it would have been solved if he had taken a different action. And certainly no concessions on the fact that it looks like some of his actions may have saved this country from economic collapse. We didn't hear public outcry from these people when Bush was spending billions every week on the Iraq war - and untold amounts of money that went unaccounted for. They were instead, busily justifying the war and calling people unpatriotic if we criticized the war in Iraq. They even said that we and Obama weren't supportive of our troops because we didn't want the war!!!!! Now they're blathering on about spending and Michelle's shorts, the family vacation, Michelle's staff because what? she's a princess? And making up stuff about death panels and birth certificates. To say that it is not the man that they don't want or approve of is a lie. If it really were the issues they care about, they'd discuss the issues and have well-thought out alternatives. As for Bill Clinton's presidency, he was all about doing what they seem to want. He cut military spending, he did some revising of welfare and he balanced the budget. You'd think that if it really were about spending issues, they'd be singing the praises of Bill Clinton and holding him up for Obama to emulate. But nope, when they talk about Clinton, it's in reference to Monica Lewinsky and what a no-good man he is and what a lousy president he was because of his indiscretions. We know what the right wing is all about. And unfortunately for them, there's no disguising it anymore. They're all out front about it and everyone in the media and personally should be calling their hands on it. Good job Cleo'sMom!!! And HappyCC - glad you joined the party on this thread.

In a discussion that included a post by kat that says that RI will not give up the $$$ that they make on prostitution no matter how tarnished it makes them look. patty responded: "That sounds like our government system. Not willing to give up $taxing$ the people by eliminating waste and cutting spending no matter how financially indebted we become to to the rest of the world." So does that mean patty, that you prefer that prostitution be allowed to operate in RI without taxation, which means no oversight whatsoever? And that by governing prostitution, the state of RI is refusing to eliminate waste and spending cuts, even though the country (not the state) is financially indebted to the rest of the world? Sorry, I'm not following your logic here. I'm also not following the logic that kat put forth that RI will look tarnished by regulating and taxing prostitution. Prostitution is not something that goes away depending upon whether it is taxed or not. It is here. It is everywhere, and it's here to stay. How does it tarnish the reputation of a state if they step in and clean up and regulate prostitution and enforce the payment of taxes on that business - just like my small business, for instance, is required to pay? Seems to me that they look much more tarnished by the paintbrush of ignorance by not taxing and regulating prostitution. We all know that arrests and jail sentences do not make prostitution go away.

I knew it!! The wealthy ruling class want to burn all the wrong books!

Why can't you just take responsibility for your use of the term? You know the context in which I used it - in reference to your usage when you said that "death panels could be the inadvertant result of the overburdening of medical resources." You pulling my leg again and if so, the very nerve~! :thumbup:

Why am I feeling a strong tug on my right leg?

patty I have asked you before and I am asking you again - do not change the way I posted my words without making a note that you did it. I am not someone who takes stuff to the top. I like to take care of my own business on my own. But you're trying to force my hand here and I don't appreciate it and I will do something about it. As for God having Mercy on me. I have no doubt that God is well aware of the meaning of my words and Jesus is supremely happy with my defense of the words that he said and the meaning of them. You on the other hand will have some serious explaining to do.