BJean

I agree with your assessment about polls and specific answers. It does all have to do with the way they can manipulate responses by the structure of their questions. You have really read a lot into my statement about "profit-at-the-cost-of-our health-care" now haven't you... Please tell me just exactly how you think our health care mess has come into being. I hope you will agree with me that we do not have the best health care in the world and certainly not the best that we could have. How do you think it got that way? My doctor has explained it to me on several occasions from a doctor's perspective. He is tops in his field and has written and published books and insructs other doctors on various laprascopic techniques. (My GP says my surgeon thinks he's God.) I have a sneaking suspicion that he knows a lot more about it than I do - from a doctor's perspective - and probably at least as much as you do. Although I give you that you're one smart cookie. And I shouldn't have used the term "pharmacies" because I meant pharmaceutical companies. Although I do know that pharmacies get their piece of the pie and are reaping the benefits of the system we have now: doctors keeping us in all manner of medications because it is the most profitable way for them to attend to our health these days. Insurance companies are definitely the bane of our existence here in the U.S. We shouldn't blame them because we definitely allowed it to happen. But its' their greed and their lobbyists that have put us in this position. I think I explained it on an earlier post and won't go through that again. But I will say that the insurance industry has an unbelievable amount of power over this country via their mega-huge number of lobbyists and the money that they devote to keeping the bills in Congress favorable to their industry. There are other reasons why the insurance industry has influenced our inferior medical care, but as I said, I've explained much of this earlier. That's what you get for not reading and absorbing my brilliant posts. :crying:

Looks like it's been nearly scrutinized to death. With it so watered down, it's probably going to wind up another drop in the bucket of bad health care policies and won't actually solve anything. I'm all for public scrutiny! But there's so much misinformation and downright lies being set adrift in this ocean of media bullcrap, the public is obviously having a very hard time sorting it all out. But no, that doesn't mean we should pass just any turd that happens to float to the top.

Amen, kat!! Except this feels more like the kid beating the parents over the head trying to correct them. :laugh:

Ooooh good. I am not the last one who posted about religion on the prostitution thread. Do I hear crickets? The old LB group used to talk about cheese when they decided a topic was beaten to death.

Government controlled medical reform? Who exactly do you think is going to reform our health care system? We left everything up to the insurance companies to figure it all out and look where that got us. The government MUST get involved now. We really have no choice. That doesn't mean that we are going to get "socialized medicine". That's just a term that is bantied about to scare you. The people who stand to lose if there is change use it a lot and lots of Americans have been scared to death of the idea of any government invovlement in our medical care system. They always think that government involvement means "socialized medicine" and we have many years of negativism to overcome because of that. Well too bad. We are in a situation where something must be done. If everybody hadn't just kept paying more and more and getting less and less, maybe we could have gotten a handle on it before it got to this point, but we didn't and now we are.

kartman as usual, you've made some extremely relevant points. To tell you the truth, the public health issues are far more important to me than the potential for tax revenue when we discuss government controls over prostitution. The health department governs the way we are allowed to run restaurants because they can be a health hazzard. Why do we stick our heads in the sand about the health issues prostitution causes in our society? The religious aspect is daunting. It reminds me in a way of the religious right's total aversion to quality, all-encompassing sex education. They believe in abstinence only as a means of birth control and of dealing with teen sex and pregnancy. It does not work and yet they cling to that idea. Their own children pay the price and their aversion to allowing their children to be exposed to sex ed and the distribution of condoms in schools honestly boggles the mind.

Like I've said many times before: prostitution is not the same thing as women having sex with their spouse, a secretary having sex with her boss or sex within any other interpersonal relationship. Prostitution is not based on the dynamics or politics between two people sharing an interpersonal relationship of any kind. It is a profession in and of itself. It is a person with a certain skill set who is providing sexual acts for another person purely for profit with no personal strings attached. It makes sense for the government to be involved in that business the same as it is in every other business. And by so doing, the government wouldn't be endorsing the prostitution business any more than it endorses the ice cream business. It is important to understand that sex between two people who have common interests beyond the sexual activity itself, is something quite different. Although there is no doubt that some women and men do use sex to barter for something they want from someone they know, it doesn't make them prostitutes. It could make them sneaky and unattractive, or it could make them quite attractive to their partner because, let's face it, some relationships thrive on that kind of barter system. However, the government really can't control sex between people who share a personal relationship. The government could not and should not enforce legal requirements to guarantee either party's safety, and the government certainly shouldn't try to tax sexual activities between two people who have an interpersonal relationship. But the government can do those things with the business of prostitution. And it should.

patty: "What I said was that it's too bad you don't allow Him to talk back to you. For the only way to hear from God is through his words in the bible." Uh wait a minute... you said that you know that the Bible is God's word. He spoke to the authors of the books in the Bible and told them what to write. But wait a minute, if the only way he can hear from him is through the Bible, explain how that works, um kay? Ever heard of the term "catch-22"? patty: "All it takes is a recognition of sin in your life and an understanding that a day can't go by without you disobeying God in some way. This will lead people to ask Him for forgiveness and eternal life. " Sounds like the way you've interpreted the whole thing is like God went about setting us up. He wants us to sin, expects it every day in fact, and he tells us that we must ask for forgiveness and he demands our obedience or he condemns us to an eternal, raging, burning hell. Sounds like fear mongering to me. And you're saying that was what Jesus was all about? He spoke of hell more than anything else? Guess that's where the preachers get the idea to do that, eh? An aggrandizing tactic to be sure. Sorry kat. I promise that this is my last post on that subject. It has gone on ad nauseum.

And, btw, I'm surprised you put much stock in poll numbers. All the polls said that Al Gore would win way back when. Even the exit polls.

Plain: "But you just basically said a few posts back that "doctors, hospitals and pharmacies" have become profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health agencies." And you disagree with that statement because.....?

patty, because I want medical reforms I want to take away people's freedoms that Americans fought and died for? How absurd. Utterly absurd and short-sighted. You've been drinking the "kool-aide" like you Republicans like to say.

BTOW, I never said that everybody in the medical profession is evil. But the bottom line is what is guiding our medical care on a daily basis. How can you argue with that? And what is right about it? Why shouldn't we want the best medical care in the world?

plain, mostly because of all the crap talk and misinformation. (Some of the stuff we see here on LBT is a prime example.) BTW, where'd you get the stats on "most Americans" not wanting it - which poll?

I feel very sorry for you patty. And plain, the goverment has historically made jobs for Americans and in the process, it made this country a greater place to live. But in recent history, the focus has been on personal wealth to the exclusion of most working Americans. Now all but the upper middle class and the wealthy are hurting. Some people are complaining about unions, which on the surface is understandable. But if you dig a little deeper, you realize why unions came into existence and why they continue to exist. Corporate greed. And the amassing of wealth by a few to the detriment of many. If everyone played fair, unions wouldn't have become necessary. If everyone played fair, this country wouldn't be in such a melofahess.

Excellent points, Kat. Well done. Patty you claim you don't approve of smoking but you don't hold the person in low esteem because they smoke. And yet, you didn't approve of giving out free food to a smoker because if they have enough money to buy cigarettes, they can buy their own food. You pick and choose from the Bible. You say you don't, but you obviously do. And how pompous of you to say that I don't speak with God. It is your comments like these that reveal your true nature and the fact that you are judgmental and that you feel superior because of your beliefs. It is the tone of your writings and the claim that you know for a fact what God says that cause your arguments to fall flat. What you espouse is religion. Even when you say you don't approve of organized religion, your kind of blind faith is all about religion - not sprirtuality or goodness or generosity of spirit toward others - which is what Jesus represents. You represent religion, preaching, condemnation, self-glorification and hell fire and brimstone. Your brand of religion gives you an out for all of the negativism that you feel toward others. You use the Bible for religious purposes not to expand your own goodness. All of this is IMHO, of course and based on solely on your posts. You could be a black, Democratic, homosexual, abortion lover for all I know and just yanking everybody's chain. If that's the case, the only good that has come of our reading what you post is that it serves to solidify our own beliefs and the knowledge that we don't want to be a nutty right wing extremist. For that, I thank you. :thumbup:

You think the hospitals aren't making a profit? Yeah, right. I am not quite so sure about tort reform. It sure depends on how it's done. I don't think we as patients should be barred from seeking retribution for malpractice. Now if you're talking about putting some caps on what can be awarded, then I'll listen. But too many people believe that people shouldn't be allowed to sue because everybody gets so damn greedy during the process. Greed is the root of our problems. The insurance companies are greedy. They sure do make a lot of money by controlling our health care. The hospitals make money and making decisions based on the bottom line is causing our health care in the U.S. to deteriorate to the point of not being the best health care in the world. In fact, our health care is way, way down on the list. Our baby's mortality rates are lousy. Our life expectancy isn't the best. And the list grows with numbers that show us that our health care system is not adequately providing good health care for Americans even if they have insurance. Only the wealthy can afford to get the very best health care we have in the U.S. because they can afford to tell the hospitals, the doctors and the pharmacies that they will pay for anything that isn't covered by their insurance. Years ago hospitals, doctors and pharmacies were not the profit-at-the-cost-of-our-health, entities that they have become today. We have to right this situation that has gone so wrong. If we can get President Obama to work on it, it will be a start. Just the beginning of hopefully getting America's health care system back on the top of the list and get Americans the promise of a longer, more vital life.

kartman: "It is why I feel so strong about equality now. I voraciously fight racism, bigotry and religious intolerance now because I think they are at the root of so many of society’s ills. If we could embrace our differences rather than alienate each other we would all be better for it." It's this religious intolerance that seems to be polarizing so many Americans today. I heard President Eisenhower's daughter speak the other night. One of the interesting things she talked about was the fact that she is no longer a Republican. It was quite obvious that she denounces the religious intolerance that so many of the extreme right wing of that party espouse. I also heard her speak to the fact that right now America is in really bad shape because we are so separated and polarized as a nation. I agree with her. It seems to be another Bush legacy. Things that so many right wing extremists speak of regarding the Bible - for instance, the way they absolutely disrespect anyone who is gay because they thinks that's what God says to do - is unspeakably mean spirited and bigoted. It is not what God wants from us - to take away a gay person's rights, to disrespect them because of their sexual orientation - it is not! If one believes that God created us all, one must acknowledge that God made gays just the way they are. And he loves them as his children just as he loves all of his children here on earth. The early bible writers decided that the best way to increase their flock was to 1) disallow birth control and 2) disallow gay partnerships. The fact that the right wing extremists have seized upon passages that men wrote and included in the Bible and use those words to discrminate against fellow human beings is dispicable. To call them God's words is just plain wrong. And this is only ONE example of the bigotry and religious discrimination that we've read over and over here. There are more examples. And I, for one, am sick of patty saying it loud and clear in one post and then denying that she meant it that way in another. "Hate the sin and not the sinner." Sorry, I'm just not buying that B.S. I say live and let live. Do not cast the first stone. He who is without sin, etc.

plain, darling, I'm so glad you agree with me about the bad ole Republicans. What a twittish thing to say: "They will, however,make them either shift their operations overseas where labor and taxes are cheaper (putting more Americans out of work), or raise prices to compensate for the increased cost." They've already done that, dear. Their greed caused them to do that before anybody raised their taxes. Americans have already been put out of work because of it. That's exactly one of the reasons we have such a ridiculously high unemployment rate. Word to yo mamma. What the new president endeavors to make happen is to put Americans back to work. He wants to create jobs to take care of the past years that we've neglected our infrastructure, our environment and all the other things that the greedy corporations and our government refused to spend any money on. And it wasn't just the corporations and the governement who were greedy. We as individuals played the game just as hard. So now we ALL are going to have to pay. And if we care about this country and if we want to preserve our glorious way of life, we can make some compromises for the greater good. If we don't, we will go by the way of Rome. I jest a little, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility. For instance, do you think Americans would be willing to give up their clothes dryers for a while? Do you think we might consider putting those unsightly clothes lines back out in our yards and hang our clothes out in the sunshine instead of running our electrical sucking machine to do the job? That's a very small consideration, but all the small compromises we could make (reusing our grocery bags, maybe?) would add up when millions of people are not only willing but excited about participating for the greater good. That's the hope that our current administration has and it is the total opposite of what our past administration worked for.

To say that the Bible has not changed throughout the ages - thousands of years - is rather an odd claim, I think. It is wishful thinking and based on "faith". Why else would we have the "King James VERSION"? You can read that particular translation and another version and come up with some interesting differences. Theologians would say that they are essentially the same and interpretet them to mean essentially the same thing. And that is interesting because these versions were written within the scope of modern times. When you dig deep back into the times when the Bible was first written, it gets even more interesting. What do you make of all the time that people were living on earth when there was no religion at all? You think God just decided that we were finally sinful enough that he had to make himself known to us? And in so doing, he then had Moses bring down the commandments who throw them down in a rage to wake us up to our transgressions? Too many inconsistencies, too many things have to be simply taken on faith. We are not quite as irgnorant as people were in the early days. If it happened today, we'd sure be asking more questions and insisting on some serious explanations before we developed a strong, indisputable faith. I always think about early Christianity in the context of my ancestors, the Indians. My people thought they knew for a fact that nature ruled the earth. That's why they prayed to the rain god and sun god and moon god. To them, there were events and situations that proved that they understood who and what ruled the earth. Those things gave them "faith". They shared what we now call "folk lore" and I wonder if some day in the very distant future, some of our religious beliefs today will be considered "folk lore" because we will have expanded our brains and our knowledge of the truth. Just like we did once we learned that the earth wasn't flat.

kartman you are spot on. And regarding the war and all the rest, the only way we might be able to get us out of this hole is by raising taxes. You think Bush didn't know that? Of course he did. So did he man-up and take care of business? Nope. He gave a token tax rebate and then he waited out the inevitable so that the Democrats could do the responsible thing, which they usually do. And then the next election, the Republicans will be bashing the Democrats for raising taxes. People with a brain can see exactly how this stuff plays out. The fact that so many continue to buy into this totally transparent political behavior is the mystery. The Republicans are brilliant - they have the middle class believing that it is unAmerican to regulate corporations. Those corporations are feeding off the middle class to such an extent that we're almost to the point of having two classes in America. The very, very wealthy and the poor. What's been happening here is similar to what we see in many countries that mainstream Americans hate. Now we expect President Obama to fix it without actually making anyone pay. He can tax us all heavily or he can make the corporations pay their fair share. Do you all really think that making corporations pay their fair share is unfair and unAmerican? The Republicans have you believing that it is going to put small businesses out of business. This is economy is what is putting small businesses out of business. Deregulation brought all this on.

HappyhomeCC I'm curious, why have you asked these questions? Thanks kartman! I'm back in the loop a little and I have to say that I've sure missed reading your brilliant posts.

Balderdash, patty. The Bible tells us that it is right to take an eye for an eye. It speaks to war and fighting and all that. Utopia would never be achieved if all people lived according to the Bible because all people can't even agree on what the Bible says to do. Just because you think you have magically decoded everything in the Bible and you think you know exactly what God intends for us, doesn't mean that you're right - only that you BELIEVE you are. The Bible was written at a time when there was no way for the stories to be validated. Today if someone wrote one of the stories in the Bible, there would be cameras and news media all over it, proving it to be all true or not true. I'm not calling the Bible a pack of lies, but I am saying that it isn't necessarily an historical document that we should blindly embrace as the final word on human behavior. It's a lovely book and a facinating book and a cruel book and it is many things, but it is not a book that represents the absolute as you say that it does. As far as prostitution I totally disagree with the idea that prostitution is practically the same as a woman having dinner with a man and exchanging dinner for sex. Prostitution is not that. Prostitution is not a secreatary trading sex for a raise. Prostitution is sex with generally no emotional relationship, without a love connection, without respect from the prostitute for the john or vice versa. It is more of an animalistic behavior. There is obviously a need for that type of outlet for human creatures and that is why I believe it needs to be regulated and accepted for what it is. In this discussion it doesn't help to make it out to be an abomination or a date. It is something that is a part of humankind and has been for as long as people cared to document it. Expecting human beings to be godlike creatures is like beating your head against the wall. Ain't going to happen. So accepting the behavior for what it really is and dealing with it in a realistic and rational way and in a way that is beneficial to society, is what needs to happen.

Anybody notice that some of the biggest banks are posting huge profits this week? And it's all Bush's fault. :cursing:

Sounds like you peeps miss me. :cursing:

Hey Wheet! Great to get a bit of an update from you. Congrats on the baby! Hope all is well and it must be or you wouldn't be seeking gainful employment. Have no clue about drug testing, so I can't help you there. But I do hope it goes well for you and you get the job!