BJean

But, our 'deeds' , or actions and things that we do, will not 'save' us. It's our faith in Jesus that does that. Yup, like I said, that's what some people believe.

Well if that is what it takes for us to get universal health care in America, then it's fine by me. I just don't agree that the picture you paint is anything we can count on. It's been so long since Americans didn't have insurance coverage to cover all health care costs, people have forgotten what it is like to just pay as you go for your doctor visits and simple medications. If we had kept that system, insurance coverage simply to cover catastrophic health care costs, things wouldn't have become so convoluted in the U.S. It has taken since the 50s for our health care system to become the hideous monster that it is today. Now you have to pay through the nose for coverage that is controlled by people who stand to make money if they deny you coverage. How good is that for your health? loserbob, we have the kind of coverage in our company that you talk about - where you must have 4 or more employees to get group coverage. But they still won't insure my husband and me. Studying successful health care systems that other countries have would be a good thing. But Americans are so afraid of "socialized medicine" they are not open to any meaningful solution, much less something that might be universal in nature. And you have the insurance companies to thank. They have our legislators in their pockets and they never miss a beat putting out a load of crap when a plan is being discussed that doesn't include them making billions of dollars off us.

Me too hummingbird! Neener,neener. But according to some, that's all you have to do. And you are quite right Cleo's. And the Pope is infallible and other stuff. As for terminology, patty, religion can be interpreted as: any systen of belief, worship or conduct; a state of mind; any object of conscientious regard and pursuit and more. It can mean denomination or church or it can mean personal belief in a divine superhuman power or powers to be obeyed or worshiped. Or even to unite publically with a church. Just because you use a word to describe one thing in your everyday pontificating vernacular doesn't preclude someone from using it in a different context for it to be correct. I used it appropriately, just perhaps not in the same way you normally use it.

There are many religions that believe that they have the answers but respect other religions and accept the fact that the others may have it right as well. Catholics, for instance, totally respect the sacraments of other churches. It affects many things relating to their members and how they treat people of other religions within the confines of their church, as well as the way their members are expected to behave in relation to other churches' sacraments. Not so with Southern Baptists, for instance. They believe that they are the ONLY ones with the answers and the ONLY ones who are getting into heaven. If you are not baptized in their church, you're doomed. Unless that ideology has changed since I was baptized there many years ago. Having participated up close and personal in both of those churches, I can tell you which one I believe has a better chance of being right. I watched Catholics go about the community doing good works for anyone in need. I watched the Baptists very vocally criticize the non-Baptist community members and take care of their own. It was a dramatic contrast in community service, love and generosity and being good because it's the right thing to do. Versus doing something simply because you're looking out for your own hide and hell-bent (if you'll pardon the expression) on getting into heaven. Please don't think that I am saying that all Catholic churches are good and all Baptist churches are bad. I'm merely using those two experiences of mine to show the contrast between them, as I experienced them.

I grew up (mostly) in Oklahoma and it used to be a far different place than it seems to be now. They have some of the biggest tools in congress. And they have turned all extreme in their religious and political views and they keep electing complete nincompoops. It has always been a rather conservative state in some ways, but it used to be a Democratic state. Some very wonderful prominent and effective politicians in Washington hailed from Okahoma many years ago. I have been gone for many years, living all over the country, traveling abroad, etc. So I am not sure when this faction of right wing poliltics took over the state. But it is embarrassing and I hate telling people that I went to school there these days.

You know Cleo's I've been so frustrated by the whole tea party b.s. I've not even stopped to consider why they were doing it because I assumed they were just ignorant. But you are absolutely correct. It makes total sense. They think they are covering the bases of abortion, guns and homosexuality and rather than owning up to that, they're calling it an aversion to big government and taxes. And its meshing well with the Republican politicoes. I do know that the extreme right wings' first and foremost agenda is to make abortion illegal again. They're also fervent gun toters and do not approve of gays, especially out of the closet gays. Thanks for waking me up a little. I've been in the fog of shock over their behavior. I also know that in many cases they are appalled that we have a president who can be considered black. So all of these things have them so riled up, they're quick to embrace those things that sound more politically correct instead of being shouted down for the ugly discriminatory beliefs that they harbor.

patty why do you keep saying that Democrats don't want what most Americans want? The majority party in Congress were duly elected by Americans. The president was elected by Americans. They are what the voters want - not more of the same garbage that the Republicans dished out during the Bush years. You don't really want what the Republicans represent. Unless you are a very wealthy person. And you sure don't sound like a wealthy person. Like many people, you're just completely swayed by their P.R. campaign that does nothing for the majority of Americans. They represent the very, very wealthy in this country. They represent the corporations. The corporations who make sure that our congressional representatives become wealthy either by accepting money from their corporate lobbyists or by other means. Whatever it takes to buy their votes. Most of us are no longer being duped. We learned a huge lesson during the Bush years - lessons that we learned from previous Republican administrations but had mostly forgotten during the Clinton years. America can't stand more Republican domination and this president and congress better figure out a way to get America back on its' feet and grow this country in the right direction, or we stand to lose everything that we hold dear as Americans.

Devana you've explained part of the situation in America very well. And the reason Americans are so afraid of the idea of socialism is because the Repulicans have for decades run a very effective scare campaign. In recent history, before the current president was elected, Americans were duped by a corrupt administration and majority Republican congress for the better part of 8 years. Then the voters got a belly full and voted the opposition party into power. But that didn't shut the Republicans up. They didn't want to take a back seat to a Democratic majority, who were elected fair and square. So the fear tactics were stepped up in intensity. And many Americans, being the easily swayed, fickle people that they are, listened. So that's why you see people posting absurd stuff here on LBT about "socialism," "tea bag parties," "birthers" and the rest. But this is only the most obvious problem. The bigger problem with getting things done for us in Washington has to do with the way the system of our government is actually run. What most often winds up happening in Washington is that our representatives wind up representing the wealthy and huge corporations instead of their constitutents. Now one might ask why they would do this. Afterall they are elected to make sure that they represent their constituents in Washington to help improve America for them. Unfortunately the way our politics works in America has provided an excellent opportunity for those representatives to become rich by taking money from various wealthy sources to represent them when they vote. It's done in the back alleys but everyone knows it. And your everyday American voter only provides them their salary and benefits. We can't compete with the lobbyists and their abililty to funnel millions of dollars into the hands of our congressional representatives. And why don't we change the system? The only way we can do that is through those same representatives who are being bribed by the wealthy. What chance do we have? You might say that we could use our voting power to throw those people out who aren't representing us well. But that isn't the answer. There will only be corruptible people to replace them. So we're screwed. And until we demand that the system be changed and our president and congressional leaders become incentivized in some way, to do what is right for the country - for the majority of Americans - we can't be surprised how well this system works for large corporations and the wealthy in our country. But that still doesn't excuse us from being so easily manipulated by scare tactics. I hope you don't think all Americans are so gullible. Millions of Americans know the score and are every bit as frustrated as you can imagine.

The Republicans in our congress who are behaving in such a dispicable manner are an embarrassment to all Americans.

Providing insurance for our employees definitely makes us think twice before hiring anyone! And bob, we pay our employees premiums for the best insurance we can provide, but the same company will not insure my husband or me because of preexisting conditions. Cool, eh? Tort reform is a slap across the face to freedom loving Americans. Republicans and insurance companies would like for all of us to think that it is an answer to the exorbitant cost of health care due to frivolous lawsuits. Frivolous lawsuits are not the problem. I think Cleo's article hit the nail on the head. The problem is the number of genuiine malpractice cases and what does that tell you? That in a lot of cases, we are paying doctors and/or hospitals big bucks for health care that is dangerous to our health. When a doctor or hospital causes a horrible loss to someone, through negligence or malicious endangerment or just plain ineptitude, and someone loses their life or limb or ability to function, we should have the power to seek redress. Just think what it would be like if doctors and hospitals didn't have to pay for their gross errors!

You two are the best. Har!

phil, stupidity is extremely frustrating if you are trying to communicate or have a rational debate. I can deal with stupidity though, if someone is able to understand logic and learn. If they keep posting illogical opinions and do not learn from anything they read, then I can't handle stupidity of that magnitude without becoming extremely frustrated. And that's when I post things that I usually regret because they are so harsh.

Ah, ah, ah, AH-CHOOOOO!!!!!

patty: "Could it be that the answer those good christian's were looking for was not the answer God was willing to give? When our children ask for money to buy something, and we say no or wait, it may seem to them that we can't give them what they are asking us for, but in fact we can, it's just that we understand that to give them the money would mean harm for them in some way, so we don't give them what they ask for. God is like that,too. "When it comes to God then, do you really know him and does he know you? Do you have a relationship with him that warrants God answering your prayers? Or is God pretty distant, pretty much just a concept in your life? With God, when the person is actually a child of God, when the person belongs to God, he knows them and hears their prayers. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me...my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." "I believe that God allows life to go on and if prayers from his children go up to him, he hears them and answers them." So if we are believers and pray to God for anything, salvation, healing, winning the gold, whatever, he hears us. But if we don't have the right kind of relationship with him, he doesn't listen or deliver? Except if we are asking for salvation, of course. Honestly I understand everything you're saying. But it makes no sense. None whatever because you (or someone else here on earth) are the ones who are deciding whether or not God has answered your prayers or those of someone else. If you've determined that someone has a good relationship with God, then you'll agree that God's probably listened and whatever the outcome, it is God's will. But if you decide that someone doesn't have a good enough relationship with God, then that person shouldn't expect his prayers to be answered. Or perhaps even listened to. The God you've created in your mind is not what the Bible promises. My God is within me. I don't have to justify the extent of my relationship to Him, myself or anyone else. I do not expect a heavenly being to pass judgement on me or my prayers for them to be worthwhile. The answers all come from me. Not an entity that some church lady conjured up for me.

Sharon, I agree with you totally. It isn't that we believe that abortion is a good thing or a decision to be made lightly. It is that the government just cannot judge each case separately and fairly. The government can only make a blanket law that applies to everyone, no matter what. It just can't work that way.

Seriously patty, what am I talking about? Just drop it. Pretend I didn't say anything. There's no way that I can explain so that you could understand. The denial and hypricisy is too deeply embedded in your mind and in your rethoric.

patty on prayers: "They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that." I really don't think it makes any sense to say on the one hand that God doesn't control the bad things that happen and on the other to say that he intervenes. I know your arguments, but I respectfully disagree. I've known so many really good Christians who have faithfully followed His teachings and have prayed fervently for something that would be fair and just if He answered them. They've even employed the assistance of their church and other churches - they've had prayer groups, they've enlisted everyone they know and those people have asked everyone they know to pray for a righteous cause and yet there was no intervention. God just didn't see fit to answer all those fervent prayers. And what of the person across the street who needs the exact same thing to happen in their lives (healing of a loved one, for instance) and they don't pray and yet the sick person is healed. And what of the person who prays to God that their team win a Gold Medal in the olymics... and the other team is praying for God to intervene and let them win? Well whichever team wins, their prayers were answered. When a person has prayed for help in anything and the very thing happened that they prayed for, they believe that God intervened and answered their prayers. When the opposite happens, the answer is that God has his own plan. He has a reason for refusing to intervene. Sorry, you just have to understand that God wanted that person to die for whatever reason He may have. This is not in the form of a quesstion. I'm not asking you to debate this with me. I know your arguments. I am telling you that it makes absolutely no sense. You cannot justify everything that doesn't validate your religious beliefs and then fervently embrace the outcome as proof that prayer works when it appears that your prayers were answered. I believe that prayer works for us because we repeat positive thoughts that cause US to get positive results. It is up to us to have goodness come into our lives. We shouldn't give God false credit and we shouldn't give Him false blame.

Good for you HummingBird. You sound like a very nice person.

patty, first you say: "Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory." But I guess you were exaggerating because then you admitted: "my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.) Going to catechism counts in the indoctrination process. I'm surprised you don't realize that. In order for you to get married in the Catholic Church, you attended some sessions - they were called instructions - prior to your wedding, unless your Catholic church was completely out of the ordinary. That counts for something when one thinks of having been indoctrinated. And as for your last little comment, your Catholic church must REALLY have been out of the ordinary. Because if your "Catholic Christian" friends simply "used the church to "do what they needed to do" it was unlike any Catholic Church I've ever attended. And I have attended Catholic Churches all over the United States. By the way, what in the world is a Catholic Christian?

geez patty, there is no end to your denials and inability to take responsibility for what you've posted! In every area where you post, your hyprocrisy is staggering. I know that hypocrisy seems to be the word du jour, but honestly you give new meaning to it. One can't help but point at it in mouth-dropping amazement.

Does anybody remember what I posted after patty posted the cartoon? I said that there are people who are so ignorant they don't even realize how bigoted they are. In fact, they will rail against it and tell you that they have a family member or best friend who is an African American and I forgot to add that they will tell you that they don't see anything racist in a cartoon like that and that for those reasons, they're not racist. Thanks patty, you made my case for me - in spades.

It seems likely that the poster doesn't understand the obvious bigotry of the cartoon. To some of us that seems almost unimaginable, but to some people who have a deeply ingrained racial bias, they are not even aware that they are bigots. In fact, some will even tell you that they have friends who are black. Or family members... proving that they aren't biased, right?

patty, that is a highly offensive cartoon. You should be ashamed of yourself.

phil: They don't want to open up that can of worms that will only serve to cloud the debate further. That would be playing into their hands. The Republicans have only criticized (and without merit) ridiculed and made outlandish claims in the heath care debate. None has come up with a better plan. None has put forth something viable that we can seriously consider. They're obstructionists at the expense of middle class Americans. They should be ignored and the people who do care about America should get on with fixing this mess.

patty: "Since God created the Heavens and the Earth, I believe He alone is quite capable of handling it without my energy input or Al Gores. God's Earth doesn't need to be "saved" from anything! It's the people who need to be saved." As an inhabitant of this earth, we all owe it to ourselves and those who come after us to have a conscience and responsibility to treat our environment with love and respect. The bad people aren't the Al Gores who are attempting to preserve the earth's pristine environment. The bad people are those whose motivation is greed; those who pollute and defile the earth for us and our children simply to line their pockets with gold are the ones you should put down. Not the other way around. Not if you love and respect God's creation.