BJean

To my mind, there is a difference between right wing and right wing extremists. There is a difference between a person who is religious and one who espouses fundamentalist and extreme religious viewpoints. That is true with Christianity as well as the Muslim religion and other religions throughout the world. When any group, religous or not, goes to extremes and becomes rabid and/or a threat to anyone who disagrees with their beliefs, they are capable of harm, both verbal and physical. That makes them dangerous. I have not called you dangerous. In fact, when I have mentioned the words extremist, fundamentalist, etc., I have generally used it in the context of behavior or thinking. I don't believe that I have said that is actually who you are. It is behavior and beliefs that I've been addressing. I do this because of what I have observed. Either by the words you and others post or things that I see in our society, plus things that I have been exposed to in my lifetime that knit it all together to form the big picture. You are willing to lay out your beliefs and your thoughts here at LBT patty and that opens you up for a dialogue and discussion and even debate since you post at Rs&Rs. For example, you have compartmentalized our president so much as to say he wants socialism for this country. That deserves to be rebutted in kind, if that is what we believe. You can take others' comments as personal or not. That's your choice, just as it is mine. But most of us are simply stating our beliefs, just like you. And we are just as credible as you and our interpretation of the Bible and what we believe God intends is just as valid as what you espouse. You know you're right. I know I'm right. I endeavor to lead you out of darkness and I suppose that's what you think you're doing. And in the end, we will both know which of us had it more right. I have the utmost confidence that I will be redeemed. And I hope you will be too.

Maybe you never went to Sunday School but I am very surprised that you never went to church before the age of 25. That's very interesting, patty.

You've often declared that without the Bible and a belief in God, man would have no moral compass. Here's a link (I know, I usually do not post links, but this one is some alternative reading for you to consider.) Josephson Institute of Ethics: The Six Pillars of Character: Trustworthiness, Respect, Responsibility, Fairness, Caring, Citizenship

Well I believe you just made their point, phil.

Good! You seem to be a very open-minded person from your last post. That is all I'm suggesting that we try to be. I will add that if you do not feel the least bit threatened by extremists who do try to force their personal beliefs down down your throat, then you are a someone with very strong personal convictions. It sounds like you must be able to listen to all sides and then make your decisions in life. That is excellent.

I posted this on another thread but I guess maybe it fits on this thread even more: That's the irony of the right wing extremist message to the world. They want us to believe that they are righteous people because they believe they know the exact intentions of God and the Bible, but they are openly scornful of people with whom they do not agree. These holier than thou self-important fundamentalists often miss the message of Jesus which was love, tolerance, forgiveness, generosity of spirit and the acceptance of all mankind. Many of them are angry, bigoted, mean-spirited and willing to do harm to others. It is such a strange dichotomy, oddly real and unreal thinking. And some of them have a death grip on the Republican party.

That's the irony of the right wing extremist message to the world. They want us to believe that they are righteous people because they believe they know the exact intentions of God and the Bible, but they are openly scornful of people whom they do not agree with. These holier than thou self-important fundamentalists often miss the message of Jesus which was love, tolerance, forgiveness, generosity of spirit and the acceptance of all mankind. Many of them are angry, bigoted, mean-spirited and willing to do harm to others. It is such a strange dichotomy, oddly real and unreal thinking. And some of them have a death grip on the Republican party.

Lb, that was very cool.

It is normal to want to blame someone or something when we have really bad experiences or we see someone we love suffer. But there are not always answers and that is difficult. My DD has lost 2 babies, one died in utero at full term and one at 3 months. For all the testing and research and praying for an answer, there is none. When you think about mother nature and science and the universe, you just have to realize that life isn't perfect. And we just have to make the best of it. We play the hand that is dealt to us. I hope rodriguez, that you and your baby girl are doing well.

No, actually those 3 things stop health care reform, not fix it. Which is their goal.

sam: "Is it different or ok for you to tell us what not to believe? You claim these people are close minded to what out there or your beliefs. Aren't you being close minded to theirs?" I am not telling anyone what to believe at all. I am merely hoping that people will be open to expanding their spirituality. And I am not being closed minded at all. I have experienced what they've said that they believe. I too have believed it. I am not at all saying that anyone should not believe whatever they choose or whatever fulfills their own needs. Some others, on the other hand, have said that if we do not share their beliefs, we are going to hell. They've said that we are immoral if we don't share their beliefs on homosexuality, on a woman's right to choose, on even whether the Bible is in fact the unedited word of God. You have misinterpreted my posts absolutely. I do not claim to have any authority over others' behavior or beliefs. I do not tell people that they are going to hell if they don't believe as I do. What I have said is that one should be open to further expansion of one's spirituality beyond the conventional lessons we learned in Sunday school. I don't understand how anyone can feel threatened by that.

Well yes, in the past it sure has worked for them and the Democrats have been quite remiss in selling their agenda. However, I have a feeling that the Republicans have finally gone too far with their irrational public displays and biased media reports and Americans are becoming wise to them. I hope!

Love the remarks from Reg Henry, Cleo's.

Cleo's: I think that the reason you are so focused on the hyprocisy of Republican politics is because as you've noted above, they get a lot of support from middle America by saying that they hate taxes, hate big government, etc. They are in fact, constantly saying that they hate anything that they think will make them popular with voters. Nevermind that their actions belie their words. In fact, their behavior is quite different from their talk. That's hyprocrisy. And now they are screaming quite loudly about the president and "his" trillion dollar deficit, and all the other things that they think will influence the voters. And the irony and hyprocrisy of it is that they created the war in Iraq. And they know that we have to eventually pay for it. The way they play that game to their advantage is to force the Democrats to on take the responsibility of solving the problem (balancing the budget and paying off the debt) and in so doing the Democrats will undoubtedly have to raise taxes. Republicans love that because it allows them to scream and holler about how awful big government and higher taxes are which diverts the attention away from their causing the out of control deficit in the first place. And to add insult to injury, when they are in control they make sure that the tax incentives and breaks go to the richest Americans. So what has happened is that they have caused a hugely significant part of the deficit and they want us middle class Americans to pay for it, instead of the wealthy paying their fair share. So they shout the Democrats down and make accusations and misrepresentations that cause people who are clueless to believe that the Republicans are against taxes and big government and they had no part in making the government big or causing the horrific deficit. This is not something new. It is just new to some people who haven't historically experienced it. Or people who believe that the Republicans do what they say they stand for. The Republicans have been doing this for decades. Anybody who buys it is either benefitting from it or too stupid to understand what's going on. You have a more intellectual and sohpisticated way of saying what I did but sometimes people are too dumb to understand big words and real numbers. Some people only comprehend Joe-the-Plumber and Sarah-Palin-speak. Wink, wink... you betcha.

patty: "Do you want me to go looking for the posts where I was told that I 'hate' Obama, and that I am a racist bigot?" Yes, that would be helpful in your defense. Again, having someone say that you "hate" Obama is quite different from someone saying that you are a bigot or racist. I am pretty sure I have said that you are a bigot and/or I said you're racist. Although I don't use the second term often. Bigot works just fine. However I haven't said, ever, that you hate Obama. I have no way of knowing how you feel emotionally about our president. However if I am to believe your posts to be truthfully what you think, then bigotry comes to mind quite frequently. Because proof is usually in the pudding.

patty: "Did you know that a news wire report from scientists in 1980 made this surprising statement: 'The sun's diameter appears to have been decreasing by about 1/10% per century.' "Scientists have been watching for over 100 years. Additional studies have shown that the rate is variable, but on average it is more like 400ths of a % per century. Every hour the sun is shrinking about 2 feet. Of course, 2 feet an hour isn't much when you consider the sun is nearly a million miles in diameter. But what are the implications? "If the sun is shrinking .04% per century, then it totals .4% per millinium. Now if you believe the sun's age is only 6000 years there's no real problem. In that time, the sun will have shrunk only about 2.4%. Life on earth would go on quite fine. But if you believe the earth and the sun have been around for nearly 5 billion years, as scientists predict, you have a problem. "If the sun existed only 250,000 years ago it would have been double its present diameter. At that size with the earth at the present distance from the sun, it would be too hot on earth for life to exist." __________________ patty, can you tell us where you got this information?

patty: "I certainly don't believe that anyone who disagrees with someones policies or makes fun of someone because he is the opposition (rep. vs. dem.), 'hates' them. I only used that word because in the past whenever I expressed my disagreement with a politician on an issue, I was told that I was a "hater" and/or a "bigot" on these forums. I was just reciprocating what is done around here to show others how wrong it is. I am glad that you picked up on it and now maybe others can see that it's NOT 'hate' or 'racisim' or 'bigotry' that moves us, but simply the persons agenda or beliefs or political stand that we don't like or approve of." Bigotry does not mean hate. Look it up. Check out racism while you're at it. You are the only person that I have obvserved using the terms hate and hatred. And you use them quite often. You may even be the only one using those terms in thread starters. Do not blame others for the way you post or the things that you think or assume. Take responsibility for what you say. Others have no control over you. Only you can control what you post and the terms that you choose to use. If you don't want someone to resent your mean assumptions, then think before you accuse them.

Devana, I have a lot of connections with people who think that their beliefs about God and the Bible are the only way to believe or be spiritual. I have extremely devoted Baptist missionaries in my family. I have very strong Catholics on the other side. And everything in between with the rest of my family and my friends. And I have lived through and believed those same things. If those who believe strictly in Christian dogma were more happy, more generous of spirit or more content in their personal lives, perhaps that would be an indication that they are indeed the ones who have the answer. To tell you the truth, I think that it has a lot to do with our hardwiring. It seems that where we are in our state of evolvement in this world determines whether we are open to true spirituality within or whether we need the Bible or others, like patty, to tell us what to believe and to confirm whether we are good or bad people. It is a pleasure to come in contact with someone who understands some of these things and your goodness is very apparent.

A perfect analogy Devana.

patty: "Only God can open a persons mind to a higher level of awareness. (consciousness) We get this gift from Him when he deems we are ready for it. It's called knowledge and wisdom. Every single thing that we have, from our posessions to our thankfulness to our wisdom comes from His grace and mercy that he pours out on those who believe in him. We can not even love others without God first putting that desire to love within us." You go on to say: "Anyone who has discovered something so wonderfully spiritual and has no desire to share the experience with others so that they may obtain it (or even deny it if they wish), really has nothing at all. And you call ME an elitist? "We get this gift from Him when he deems we are ready for it. It's called knowledge and wisdom." Obviously He has not deemed that you are ready.

patty: "He posed nude over 20 years ago when he was in his 20's. Are you trying to say that people don't mature and change in a few decades of time? Come on. Isn't there anything 'real' that you could pin on him for your hatred towards him. or isn't it true it's just because he's not a bad guy and he's not a democrat?" What's this preoccupation you have with hate? I have no hard feelings at all toward the man. I certainly do not hate him. In fact, I have a feeling that the Democrats might have use for the guy. I was being sarcastic. I was saying what I figured the Republicans are saying about him. If he votes his conscience, and indeed actually has one, that will be a good thing. And it hardly incites hatred. Except perhaps in the hearts and minds of Republicans.

I'm actually hoping that Brown isn't too excited about tea bagging. Guess it remains to be seen.

phil your last post, above, is your most impressive yet. I love the part about corporations' desire to save the planet. Spew my drink out my nose.

Well what can you expect from the state of Mass, those losers! That's what they get for electing somebody who would pose nude. Hath the man no shame? No sense of responsibility to all those Democrat, er Republicans, who voted for him? Those angry tea baggers (incited by Foxnon-news) will soon put the pressure on him and get him in line. They are so intelligent and powerful and have such good intentions, he won't be able to resist their influence. I mean, hasn't he even heard a Palin speech? What IS he thinking?

elcee you are definitely on the right track!