BJean

I just heard that jackass John Cornyn say that Americans don't want this and he threatened retaliation of sorts. What is wrong with these mean-spirited, vicious people? People don't want greed to rule anymore. People want fairness in government. They're sick to death of the tea baggers, deathers, birthers and racist hate mongers!! Congratulations Cleo's. I know you've worked for this and I am proud of you and the others who did their part in helping Americans get a fair shake with their health care system.

Alex, please enlighten us with the specifics.

I would love to say that there are Republicans that are better than the worst Democrats in congress, but right now I can't think of one. The regular people don't matter to the Republicans and they have done a job on vulnerable Americans who have fallen for the hype. It has made no difference at all to the Republicans that every argument they have made has been repudiated soundly. On a far far smaller scale, it is the same here at LBT with the people who are drinking the Republican kool-aide. No matter how much logic or relevant material has been posted that would influence an unbiased voter, certain people just keep repeating the same revolting nonsense and regurgitating the Reagenisms ad nauseum. As for the tea baggers who have totally lost it and are insulting a man who has Parkinsons and people who disagree with them and using bigoted language against those of a different race, they better cool off or this thing is going to wind up with such a backlash at the polls that it will make their heads swim.

Leisha, great to know that I'm not a lone wolf in this incredibly conservative state. It is cool to know that not only are you here but you actually make a lot of good points when you post. Way cool. High five!

Coloradobanding, are you trying to tell me I don't have a life? :-) The great thing about going to rants and raves is that you're probably not having any problems with your band or you'd be spending all your time in the forum section asking others if they have experienced whatever it is that's troubling you. So seeing you here is a good thing! And besides I really like what you had to say.

patty unless you've been introduced to phil in person, he doesn't know you personally. He only knows what you post. And he obviously very strongly dislikes the things you post. He isn't alone. He just says how he feels. Most of us try to hold back a little. You've been provoked from time to time and said things that you've had to apologize for. So you, of all people, should understand how phil could get so angry or disgusted that he says things that are very harsh. Again, they're directed at your posts and if you choose to take them personally, that's up to you. But if you can't stand the heat....

"...you are dillusional." sez patty. Nice, real nice.

[quote name='pattygreen; Ins. companies don't drop people who get sick. They must pay for your care as long as you continue to make your premium payments on time and in full. If you lapse at all' date=' then they don't have to cover you.[/color'] On another note, Ins. companies try to invest in people who are healthy. That makes sense for them in the business. This is why they don't want to cover people with pre-existing conditions. What planet have you been living on patty? You seem to have this pollyanna vision of what the insurance companies are to Americans in this country. They are the evildoers. They are the ones who have caused the health care system breakdown. They have done it with high powered lawyers, high powered lobbyists and they've been able to to it because they make billions in profit every year. If you haven't been screwed by the insurance industry, then lucky you. But most Americans have in one way or another. Too bad you are unable to understand what universal health care really is and what it would mean to this country. Too bad you believe all the hype and lies that the insurance companies have flooded the country with. Sucker.

I too have noticed that patty doesn't seem to get a reprimand when she hurls personal insults, but when someone hurls them back, we get called on the carpet. I am crying foul! I agree that the mods seem afraid of her. It's probably because they figure she'll lash out at them and tell them they're going to hell. Unfair! This is rants and raves and everyone should be able to speak their mind. If someone can't handle it then they are the ones who should quietly get back off the thread. There have been times in the past when I was completely outnumbered on a thread and terrible things, personal things, were said to me. I didn't whine to the mods. I just opted off the thread. Several others pm'd me and told me that I was in the right, but they weren't willing to say it in the open forum because they didn't want to be singled out like I had been. You need to be tough to play here. You need to be able to not take things personally. Afterall, we all know that none of us REALLY knows each other. We only know what we've posted. So when someone hurls an insult, it is because of something you've said that provoked it not because the poster actually dislikes you personally.

Leigha, good point. But it is obvious that logic and common sense do not work with patty and those like her. They are just against health care reform and that's that. They can't be swayed by the facts or common sense. We do need to reduce the deficit. We do need to keep down government spending. But not in an area that costs Americans' lives. There are any number of areas where cuts can be made. But when it comes to having health care vs. Americans not having health care or having lousy health care, that's not where the cuts need to be made. We need a better health care system. We need better schools and teachers. We need to rebuild the infrastructure of the U.S. We need to address environmental issues. We need to take care of the business of all Americans that were woefully neglected during the Bush years. We need to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan - that would be a start in cutting back. And then we need to do an across the board assessment of programs where cuts can be made. And we probably need to raise taxes. But before that, the subsidies of wealthy corporations needs to stop and the tax breaks to the wealthy must cease. Start with those things and you'd be surprised how quickly the deficit gets back under control. Clinton figured out how to do it after the lousy stinking Reagan years. Now this president has to get busy and pull us out of the mire. But people who are against health care reform are whistling in the wind. The insurance industry went too far and this is all on them.

I just read your last post. Barbaric is not too strong a word for your attitude in the health care debate.

patty: " barbarism? Oh brother! "This is where you are wrong. We do support HC reform. Just not the reform the president wants, which, ultimately in the long run, leads to government run HC for everyone or at least one more step closer to it." How can you claim I am wrong? We've debated the very issues I'm referring to and you support capital punishment and you believe that wars are necessary. You've even tried to justify the war in Iraq for a very long time after even Bush's cronies admitted that they were wrong. Barbarism is not a stretch. And for you to defend the insurance companies right to gouge us is barbaric in light of the current health care conditions in this country and how it affects so many people. You say you aren't against health care reform but from the very beginning of this debate, you have been dead set against it and the arguments that you put forth have never presented one iota of proof that you are serious about coming up with a better plan. The Republicans are full of bull$hite on this and I do not respect your previous post one bit because you do not take responsibility for supporting them in this fight. You say you want change. What a joke. You only want change if it means that the insurance companies can continue to be in charge of my health care and only if it doesn't cost you personally one red cent. You don't want change. You've already said that you do not believe that people have a right to health care in America. You're all for the status quo. Especially if that means that the president fails in his attempt to make things better for mainstream America. You are just full of it. __________________

One of the most heartbreaking things about the Republicans saying that no one has a right to health care, is to know that they are the ones who chose to spend billions and billions of dollars to kill people in the streets of Iraq. They totally support war. The say that the collateral damage is just a necessary component of war. They say they support our troops, but how is insuring that thousands die in an unjust war, supporting them? They support barbarism. But they do not support changing a health care system that is not working for anyone but the wealthy in America and the health care providers and insurance companies who are killing us with their greed.

patty: "I could dig up just as many videos and pictures of liberals doing similar crap at rallys when Bush was President. If I did, you would just tell me that a small minority of people in your party don't speak for the majority of you. That's all I can say when you relentlessly bring about videos of conservatives protesting. There are a very small minority of jerks in every party. Why don't you try to show us here on LBT that you're not a jerk like that? Why don't you try to be more mature in your hatred for those who don't take your side? Why do you feel the incessive need to belittle those who don't agree with you? So what? Some guy was being a jerk at a protest. I bet if you looked at other videos from that day you could find a liberal at that same protest being a jerk too." patty, nothing about what you've said, above in quotes, excuses those people's behavior. If you can find someone behaving as badly on the Democratic side, please, I challenge you, bring it here and we can discuss it. __________________

GREAT post Cleo's!!

I like the guy who said it's too bad we can't sit down and discuss the pros and cons. As the last lady spoke, it was obvious that the Republicans have succeeded with some people, in planting fear and distrust. There have always been conflicts with political issues in this country but the Republicans and right wing have made it impossible to have an intelligent dialogue that might result in people learning something and making an informed decision. They are operating, as usual, on misinformation, lies and fear mongering. When you're debating if you can get away with this behavior, you don't need the truth on your side. You don't need to have any serious merits in your arguments. All you need is to spout buzz words and fear and it's enough to convince a lot of Americans. I really wish we were better people than this.

Nice. Real nice.

Cleo's: "Imagine if all education was for profit private education (a goal of the neocons, by the way) - then only the rich could afford to send their kids to school. The poor would be shut out. But we have access to free public education for all. That's the way healthcare should be." One reason private schools are fine with the neocons is because it will keep those poor people in their place - doing the neocons laundry, polishing their shoes, picking up their trash, planting and harvesting their crops, etc. 8 years of the Bush administration - which included a Republican dominated congress - has brought this country into a phase where the rich has been getting richer and the poor poorer and the middle class shrinking. Now we need to get things back on track for most Americans or we're going to end up like Mexico with just two classes, the very rich and the very poor. Have you been watching what's going on down there? If people keep supporting policies that the Bush administration got going or strengthened, then we will keep getting the results that brought us to the brink. How stupid, how very very stupid, is that? We need changes all the way around. Not to make this a socialist country, but to make this a country where everyone gets a fair shake. That's what our founders worked for and that's what we Americans have been promised by our Constitution and Bylaws. And it's also what people who flee to this country have been promised. At least the ones who come here legally. I am thoroughly embarrassed by the greed displayed by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Mr. Williams, quoted above. Wanna bet how wealthy Mr. Williams is? I don't know but I'll be willing to bet on it.

Good to hear from you Coloradobanding! It is also great to see that you have found your "sweet spot"! I hope you continue to do well with the band and you reach the goal you've set for yourself!

YES!!! There are so many reasons why sex education in schools is vital, but if right wing extremists want fewer abortions they should be in support of it not against it. Great point, Leigha.

Thanks for your post Leigha. You made the point much more convincingly than I. But I am very passionate about this issue and just can't keep from ranting from time to time. Btw, not that it means much, but I was a virgin when I got married. I got married at 19, so it's not as if I waited until I was 30. But I was very involved in my church and firmly believed that it was a nearly unforgivable sin to have sex before marriage. That is exactly why I got married so early. Biological urges made my decision for me. So I was married to the totally wrong guy and it lasted for 4 very long, very desperate, very unhappy years. He was a staunch Baptist too and his sexual education was non-existent. What a calamity! And we were both convinced by the teachings of the church that marriage was forever. Hence the very long, horrible 4 years. I left that marriage relieved but broken, with feelings of very low self-esteem and failure. And I had a one year old baby to take care of as a single parent. Ignorance is not bliss!

I've been amazed and mystified over the years to learn how many of my mother's contemporaries "had" to get married. We didn't invent the term "shotgun weddings" it was used long before I was born. I didn't mean to insult you, patty. Tell me, how did you get your sexual education? How did you find out about sexually transmitted diseases? How did you learn everything there is to know about contraceptives? And at what age did you teach your children everything so that they could be prepared to take care of themselves? My mother gave me some brochures from the health department. She was embarrassed to discuss sex or contraceptives or veneral disease. She didn't tell us about condoms or birth control pills or foam or any other way to protect ourselves from unwanted pregnancy. It was just too embarrassing for her. And I was very close to my mother. She was a well-educated woman. She was a perfect mother in every other area of parenting. And no one I have ever known got a good sexual education from their parents. People I know who thought abstinence was the way to handle the topic of sex, taught them just that - abstinence before marriage. Period. They might tell their kids about the horrors of disease or pregnancy to scare them, but as for real meaningful sex ed, forget it. That's why so many kids of parents who teach abstinence only still have sex, still become pregnant, still get veneral diseases. If teaching abstinence only worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Actually patty, the question should not have been why you put single quotes around the word repercussions, but why you put that word in quotes at all. I'm just curious. I don't understand what you were trying to tell me.

Yeah Cleo's, that and comprehensive sex education. If parents actually taught their children about anatomy, physiology and reproduction as well as sexually transmitted diseases, it might be a different story. But they don't and our kids in America pay an awfully big price for their parents' ignorance. How people can justify keeping this very basic information out of the public school curriculum is beyond me. Basic anatomy and physiology should not be considered something to be feared or afraid of, or something to shield one's children from. It is basic information that all humans should have about their bodies, just like information about nutrition, physical exercise, sleep and all the things that we need to learn about keeping our bodies healthy.

patty: "These 'repercussions' wouldn't be there if parents would tell their kids the importance of abstiance until marriage, and why God set it up that way in the first place. Maybe if that were taught in schools, there would be less repercussions." The studies indicate otherwise. It isn't the knowledgeable kids who get into trouble with unwanted pregnancies and veneral diseases. It's obvious to most people that preaching to kids to abstain from sex before marriage isn't an effective deterrent. I'm not saying that all kids have sex before marriage. I am saying that you're playing with your kids' lives when you give them abstainence in the place of a comprehensive sex education that includes visually aided lessons on pregnancy prevention and sexually transmitted diseases. May I ask why you put the word repercussions in single quotes?