BJean

Just as I thought. Years ago I knew a girl by the name of Zoe and she pronounced it with a long O. I never could get used to it.

What I want to know is do you pronounce Zoe with a long O or a long E?

gadget your last comment defies reason - as do many of your other statements. Think about it, hon. If he was doing abortions, he was perfectly well aware of what came out. Ultrasound didn't reveal anything to him that he wasn't already aware of, unless he was/is a bigger quack than I even thought. And since his numbers don't add up nor do his stories, then why would you put so much creedence in what he says? I can answer that and it is what you've accused me of - you like what he has to say since it supports your beliefs. You accused me of not wanting to read his stuff because I don't like his politics. You are perfectly, squarely wrong about that. I read opposing credible sources and listen to the arguments and beliefs of those with differing opinions all the time. But I do not waste my time on people who I know stretch the truth or make up their own truth just to get people to listen to them. There just aren't enough hours in the day to do that.

:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::clap2:

Sorry, I'm just not interested in reading the writings of a former atheist abortionist who performed 75,000 abortions and who has found religion and so now you've decided he is brilliant and knows of what he speaks. I think he's using his history to manipulate people and numbers and that just doesn't interest me.

gadget, you're a tricky one, aren't you! I never said he had credibility - EVER - he seems like some kind of quack to me. But then I don't share his bouncy ball politics, so there you go. My point was that his abortion stats just don't hold up so none of his stuff can be trusted as fact either. You gotta watch folks on both sides of the fence. That's one reason why I don't post a bunch of science or statistics - unless I've seen the full studies. And frankly that's not why I come here. RnR is a place to post opinions, rants and raves. It sure ain't science.

nurse: Thank goodness for smiley faces, because otherwise I wouldn't know how you REALLY feel. Sarcasm can be a tricky science.:confused:

Elisabeth: Those are very touching examples of just why people should be in control of their own health care. My mother did not want to die in a cold sterile hospital. She did not want to be kept alive so that her cancer could fill her with more pain than she had already endured. Against our better (we thought) judgement, we took her home. She had a hospital bed in the living room where all the activity was. It was hard on us, but I personally felt so good about taking care of her needs instead of having a stranger do it. It gave me something to do for her. She did it her way and we will always respect her for taking charge of her life and her death. My sister, on the other hand, fought her cancer with her last dying breath. She was off and on chemotherapy and other drugs and radiation for 3 years. It was a horrible existence. She had every side effect you could imagine from the drugs - and many you couldn't imagine. But she never gave up hope and she got our respect because of her courage and her willingness to fight with all her might. Two very different ways to approach death. There are many more and I hope that when my time comes I will be able to have a say in how I go out. I don't want to be kept alive well beyond what is normal. I would be completely mortified to have that decision taken out of my hands or the hands of my family. They know how I feel about this. But you are right, if I were faced with death unexpectedly, I might beg to be put on a ventilator. edie: I appreciate your posting the day and time for Larry King's interview with Kevorkian.

Dr. Nate's credibility flies right out the window when he cites statistics about the number of llegal abortions that were performed before abortion bacame legal. That's a load of B.S. used to skew the numbers to suit his politics.

Dang Mark! Why didn't I think of that. I could solve the problems of both abortion and adoption in one fell swoop. :faint:

gadget - I'm just as uptight about the dichotomy of your stance on it being unacceptable for never taking a human life if it is a baby, versus always taking a human life if it is a convicted killer. A life is a life, as you so often put it. If you believe there is no middle ground about taking a life when there is an "innocent" human being's life at stake, then you shouldn't believe that there is no middle ground when there is a "guilty" human being's life at stake. Of course I have children. How else would I know exactly how a pregnancy affects a woman? That's not something you can read about and fully appreciate or understand. And I take the responsibiilty extremely seriously. That's why I could never, in a million years, give a child up for adoption. That is unfair to the extreme as far as I'm concerned. All you have to do is watch Oprah, Springer or a few of the other talk shows, or know someone who is adopted very intimately, to realize how much pain adoptees can experience when they learn that their mother gave them up for adoption. And can you blame them? Unlike your belief about abortion, however, I'm not saying that adoption should be illegal. But I don't think that a healthy woman should give a baby up for adoption. She's created this little human being and she should take the responsiblity for it. Same goes for the father. No matter who he is. Adoption is not always a perfect answer to an unwanted pregnancy. It is fraught with emotional as well as, in some cases physical, unhealthy implications. To pass adoption off as the perfect answer to make abortion illegal, is wrong, wrong, wrong. That is my belief. I know you think it is incorrect and you probably think it is ignorant. Perhaps that is why you are so intent on "educating" the rest of us. But it is my belief and I am probably just as educated about the matter as you, and I am definitely just as firm in my belief as you. Sandbagging women into going through with an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is terrorism in some cases, as far as I'm concerned. Just as it would be to sandbag a woman into having an abortion if she's a poor, unmarried, irresponsible woman. It's okay for you to try to make people "think" but you don't let it go at that. You paint all women who have had or who may someday want to have an abortion with the same brush (unless her life is threatened, I suppose.) It isn't that simple no matter how much you will it to be so. Abortion is complicated decision, it is not to be entered into lightly, just as adoption is complicated and should not be entered into lightly. But sometimes abortion IS the best answer, and sometimes adoption IS the best answer. My entire argument ends with the simple premise that it is not for YOU to decide what EVERY woman should do if she is faced with either of those circumstances.

For any of you who are interested, there have been a lot of studies over many, many years about the death penalty and whether it is a deterrent to crime. It has always been shown to not be a deterrent. So if we are in favor of the death penalty, we should not kid ourselves by saying that it is done in order to discourage other potential killers. Several of you who said they're for the death penalty went on to say something about it being done to, in some way, appease the families of the victim. However, in many cases, intelligent people whose family members have been murdered, are not appeased by the imposition of the death penalty on the killer. The most wholesome and effective help that grieving family members can experience is by forgiving the killer. Yes, you got that right. Forgivness. It is healthy, it is lasting and it is what Christ would want. Besides, we should, as someone posted earlier, take the higher ground. We should not be in the business of killing. We may not be able to rehabilitate a killer, but we should not reduce ourselves to taking other people's lives for revenge. Now in the case of Mark. I am completely on his side in the argument that ensued after the exchange between musicalmama and Mark. I'm glad ya'll stopped beating that horse because it was obvious that those of you who persisted in putting him down, were only taking advantage of the situation because you surely couldn't have possibly believed that Mark thinks that killing Christians is acceptable to him. Musicalmama's comment wasn't taken as serious, so Mark's shouldn't have been either. I agree with Mark often, so I'm not a fun debate partner for him. But he brings a lot of interesting viewpoints to the table and he has a great sense of humor. I would be seriously depressed if he disappeared from the scene.

I haven't heard much about him for some time. I guess from the sound of the posts here, he's in ill health? I am so glad that he brought the problem out into the open and helped people think about physician assisted suicide as well as euthanasia. Many of us will have to deal with these decisions at some point in our lives. It is important for us to make our wishes known to our loved ones in case we become incapacitated and are unable to tell our doctors ourselves. Ayers, yours is a powerful post on the subject and I really appreciate everything you said. I have had to watch my dad, my mother and my sister (who was my best friend) die. I too have witnessed the ungodly way we are able to keep some people who are riddled with pain, alive far past when nature intended. Dying with dignity, in a beautiful, respectful, peaceful and loving way is what everyone should want. Not dying in excrutiating pain, without control of bodily functions, without the ability to move about or perhaps even eat or breathe without assistance. What a horrible, inhumane way we've allowed the government (mostly) and medical community (sometimes) to intervene in our impending deaths! I'm with Mark... thank you Jack. I hope you have trained someone to follow in your footsteps, although I doubt if many men are as courageous and caring as you.

396: So you've had a vasectomy... somehow that gives me a feeling of relief. I wish there was some possible way that you could experience becoming impregnated without your consent, then carrying the totally unwanted baby until term, being an unwilling host to a creature growing inside you, making you ill and causing you to lose teeth and acquire hideous stretch marks (that your intimate partner finds disgusting) acquiring hemmoroids and vericose veins, having a pound of flabby stretched out flesh where your flat stomach used to be, going through the fear, uncertainly and physical pain of labor and delivery, having your vagina opening torn up past your anus, wind up with bladder and bowel problems from it, and then cope with having a little person expecting you to take care of their every need for much of the rest of your life. If there was some possible way that you could feel it, know it, experience every single moment and every single aspect of it and you still thought that someone else could make a better decision for you than you could make for yourself, then I'd be willing to take your opinion on this subject a little more seriously. But sorry, you just sound like a little guy who, for whatever reason, likes to think he can force his beliefs about a woman's right to choose on others. Bite me, dude. Where's the nice, warm, runny Brie when you need it?

The only downside for me is all the time I spend on my a$$ at the computer instead of moving my a$$ burning calories. At least we aren't watching TV. I've read that watching TV burnes fewer calories than just about everything! Glad you decided to jump in here. R & R can really bring out the beast in folks. My DH wonders why I've become so much more vocal politically lately. Poor thing. He's a very conservative Catholic, who's worked in the military defense sector and votes Republican. Well they say opposites attract. We're living proof! :biggrin1:

Jasmine- We the people of the United States are the ones who are responsible for the vast numbers of people migrating to our country. It isn't their fault that we have made it so attractive for them to be here illegally. That's one reason calling them unflattering names seems so unfair. But they are here illegally and they aren't natives. Just like Hurricane Katrina victims, they don't deserve our scorn. But it is still a huge drain on resources. And as for the illegal immigrants, it is hugely unfair to all of the people who have spent the money, done all the work and jumped the hurdles to become legal citizens of the U.S. But I'm stating the obvious. I just wanted you to know that I do not blame illegal aliens - or undocumented immigrants - for their plight.

The words "illegal alien" may be distasteful to you because of the connotations - not just the words per se. But to me, calling them undocumented immigrants doesn't feel right. To say they are immigrants is to say they have immigrated. How can that be correct since in no way have they legally immigrated - they are not actually new citizens of this country. They are squatters maybe? Of course if you use the term, immigrant, simply to describe one who has migrated north, then I guess it is accurate. I'm sure this will be wildly unpopular for me to post this, but I think many Americans prefer the term "illegal alien" to "undocumented immigrant" because it is such an emotionally charged issue.

Yo mama!!!!

Green in theory I completely agree with you. Mexico is a beautiful country, loaded with so many beautiful people and with a fascinating colorful history. The fact is, I have a little personal knowledge of the corruption in government there, and I have heard about it being an even more prevalent and widespread problem than just the local gendarmes. I am not sure how our two countries can work things out for the little people, when the boys at the top of both our countries are so fat and happy with the status quo.

Carlene it doesn't surprise me one bit that Pat Robertson's outfit operates like that. Personally I think he is very slimey and disengenuous. I know people who truly worship the man. There has to be something different going on in their brains and mine, because it just makes no sense at all to me. Oral Roberts' counting room was filled with people ripping open and counting. I do not know what they did with all of the prayer requests but I will ask my SIL. I think some of these evangilists start out with passion for Jesus and God's word, but they get blinded by all the $$$s and that becomes their mission. With Pat Robertson, his mission is not only to amass wealth however, he wants political power too. Obviously he's accomplished both goals.

Funny thing about televangelists, if someone is cured they take all the credit, if they are not cured it is because of the lack of faith by the sick person. That whole mindset reminds me of people who pray to God that they win the ballgame. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, it's because they must not have had enough faith so that God would help them. I've never heard them consider the idea that the other team might have more faith and therefore God answered THEIR prayers first. When Oral Roberts got started in tents, he was incredibly believable and charismatic. Then he went on local TV and one of his lines was, "Put your hands on your television while I pray for you and you will be healed." My SIL worked for him right out of college. She was one of the "counters." She opened envelopes and tallied the take. It was a large secure room and it was just brimming with cash. They treated her like a convict. It was bizzare! Reminded us of Scrooge McDuck.

Very well said, Green. Generally speaking (dumb to do, I know) Americans do not think as globally as Europeans and I guess some Canadiens do, at least in terms of our nation wanting open borders and allowing pretty much just anybody to become an American citizen. We are very self-centered. We love our country and we love our way of life. Anything that threatens us will cause Americans to rise up en masse against that threat. (That's why initially, on Bush's word, most Americans approved of our attacks on Iraq. I must add that I never did.) Having millions of illegals in this country is infuriating because of the work we do to keep America great, and all of these unaccounted for people are not contributing (as far as we're concerned) to keeping America great. Although that seems to be the consensus about illegal aliens for some of us, it also seems that Dubya, and some Congress people think having them here to keep the cost of labor down is contributing to America's greatness. Well if we can believe him and Congress that the definition of greatness in America is capitalism, I guess they're right.

Dynamo: Sadly to say, no I am not recommitted. Everyday I start out that way. I am sure that I need a fill. I keep saying next week. But I promise I am going to call tomorrow for a fill next week. That will also involve a visit with the nutritionist. She's a stern taskmaster. But that's not the most important part. I can go over my symptoms and she will help me figure out why I'm having this problem! But I am in a much better mood and feeling like I'm beginning to understand better what's going on here. Sorry you didn't have a restful night. A very good women's wellness doctor I used to see says that sleeping straight through the night is a crucial component to a woman's healthy life. Something (it's been a while) about elevated cortisol and other hormones being out of whack that make it a problem, especially when you are worrying about the risk of cancer. So if you have to take something to get a good nights' rest, do it. Be careful of taking Tylenol PM though. Tylenol is hard on your liver. The main ingredient in Tylenol PM that causes you to sleep is Benadryl and so just take some Benadryl. Preachy little thing ain't I? Sorry about that. I'm just passing along information because I've had that problem, including lactose intolerance, in the past.

Sweet dreams, Dynamo! Hope I didn't give you nightmares!

Uh oh I jumped in and posted over at the illegal alien thread instead of here where all this is actually going on. How'd this bleed over into the God Bless Jerry Falwell's thread anyway? Do we need some Limburger here too?