BJean

Butch I think you are a very bright guy. I agree with a whole lot of what you had to say. The reason I agree with you is because I have been witness to it, practically all of my life. I don't think that we will ever reach Nirvana though, as much as we would like to think we could. But I feel a lot of the time as if we are just fighting among ourselves, and the administration is loving every minute of it. It's a great diversion from the fact that they are not working to solve any of the majority of our country's problems. They're too busy making bucket loads of money before they leave office. Tommy of course we are all individuals and we all have different qualities as well as different problems. We are as different as our fingerprints and DNA indicate. No two of us are alike. Identical twins are even different in certain ways. So no one particular panacea will work to solve all the personal problems that we have in our lives. But let's face it, we can do much better! Green I do admire much about my Canadian cousins and their beautiful country. But I have to tell you, sometimes I wonder if your pride in your country isn't keeping you fitted with rose colored glasses. When we moved to Montreal, we were told that there were no "street people" and no beggars and practically no crime. That wasn't true. There were lots of street people there. One guy who was begging on the street one day actually landed a punch in my DH's face. We witnessed men urinating on the streets quite often. There was always a puddle of pee in many of the downtown Metro stops. There was a murder just around the corner from us in a jewelry store during a robbery. Did I read about it in any of the newspapers or see it on the news? Not very often. The newscasters did not stupidly sensationalize shocking stories like they do in the states, and I do not doubt that more crazy things go on down here than in your parts, but your country isn't Nirvana either. (Although I do admit that it's closer to it than the U.S.A.) For all the negative stuff you hear about what's happening down here, just please remember that we have a crazy media that loves to exaggerate for effect. Most of our neighborhoods are quite safe and beautiful places to live. We do spend a lot of time debating and criticizing our own, that's one of the really neat things about us. But it also wreaks havoc on our self-esteem, both as a country and as individuals.

Nope. You're wrong. You said early on that you weren't for capital punishment because it was a deterrent, and I accepted that as the gospel according to gadget. But I thought it was relevant that you only posted the part of the article that was trying to make people think that there is some new wowie-kazowie study or studies that prove that capital punishment deters crime. The article was filled with information that showed that it was not an accepted study at this point, by many learned people. Consequently I didn't make you out to have an agenda at that point, your behavior did. You can turn things around any way you like, but if anyone is reading this (which I doubt) they can see for themselves how things unfolded here. It isn't fair for you to blame me for something I haven't said or done, nor is it fair for you to say that I said something or other that I did not say. Come on, play fair.

If you say so, gadget. I don't follow your logic, but I'm sure you must know what you're talking about.

P.S.S. I too find it completely repulsive that on the one hand people say they don't believe in harming an unborn baby, but on the other hand when they're born, it's okay to hit the little people. What tha? I should post photos of abused children here, or a link to graphic violence against children with photos of their little bruised bodies, burned arms and legs, or dead limp bodies from their mother's drowning them in a bath tub. That would be as relevant as posting a graphic link showing some kind of brutal late term abortion here. Good grief.

I've avoided this thread because I figured it would upset me. Sure enough, I had time tonight to read the posts and I am extremely upset. My parents used to spank my siblings and I. My Dad especially, thought it was right and good to hug and kiss us after he spanked us and explain why he "had" to spank us so that we would understand right from wrong. My sister and I always said to each other afterwards, that here comes the "buttering up" part. We knew that he felt guilty for hitting us, and we were very young when we knew it. He used to take us, one by one, into another room and "spank" us with his belt. He didn't leave marks. We had to wait through dinner until it was time for us to get our spanking for whatever it was that we did or didn't do that day. Then afterwards we were told how much we were loved and how he didn't want to spank us but that we were bad and we knew we had it coming. This didn't happen often at all, but you can be sure that I remember each and every time that it happened. It was abusive, it was ugly, and it was totally unnecessary. I did not love and feel any respect my father until he was was older and I was no longer afraid of him. We grew to be very close when I was an adult. My mom died and he really needed me and my love. So I certainly gave it to him. My siblings were unable feel respect toward him for most of their adult lives. Oh sure, they could say they loved him, but they didn't respect the way he raised us - with fear. Laurend has posted one of the most intelligent and sanest things that I read here. She said that consistency is the answer to raising your children. She's completely right. Today we are all so busy making a living, attending all the kids' functions, and cramming everything into every day that we think we should, that we are all strung out much of the time. I believe that is why we see so many unruly children. They are begging for our attention. They crave consistency and love and caring and too many times we put them last after all the other chores and activities we feel we must get done. I never, not once, spanked my daughter or son. I thought I wanted to a time or two, but I was able to get a grip and realize that they were begging for me to listen to them. They seldom misbehaved - only when they were very tired or sick or feeling like we were ignoring them. They did very well in school, they were popular with other children and their teachers loved them. They have become awesome adults. They now have children and they do not spank their own children. I am very proud of how our 3 - four year olds stand out in a crowd of other 4 year olds. They are well-behaved, polite and have lots of sweetness and love in their hearts. Corporal punishment is not the answer. Children may grow up to be good people in spite of corporal punishment, but I do not believe that children grow up to be well adjusted, happy people because they were punished by spanking when they were growing up. The answer is consistency and listening to them. When children act out, it is for a reason. If you are a loving, caring parent you will investigate what caused the behavior and then you can address the behavior and correct the problem. You really have to love your children unconditionally and you have to be willing to give up some of yourself and your time to parent them 24/7. I am shocked that anyone would use an implement to whip their child in this day and age, after all that we know about how negative corporal punishment is for children. The fact that a child will look at you and say that they love you and understand why you had to whip them only tells us that they are scared of you. It doesn't necessarily mean that they respect you or honestly understand why you want to hit them. They know, deep inside, that it doesn't make any sense for someone to be able to hit them. P.S. To say that someone has to be a parent in order to say how children should be punished is completely ignorant. If you think a non-parent can't understand the proper way to parent, that's telling me that you lose it with your children from time to time, otherwise what's the big mystery?

The first Sandra Brown book I read was, "Lucky." It was one of a trilogy. Really entertaining. Then I read another one but can't remember the name. The heroine woke up in the hospital, all bandaged from head to toe, unable to talk, and learned that everyone thought she was killed in the airplane crash, and that they think she is someone else. Remember that one? After that, I was hooked big time for a while. That was probably 10 years ago and I haven't read one of her books since then. Do you have any recent ones to recommend? I'd guess that they're still a quick read and lots of fun since she always throws in a little spice and intrigue.

If we can't rely on the findings from studies that are conducted, then why post the link and why bother reading them? The fact is that if we are thorough in our research and if the studies are unbiased and properly constructed, we can trust that they will reveal accurate findings. When a study is done that provides very different results from all of the previous studies, we look to honest researchers to analyze it and publish a thorough accounting of why the findings are so out of the mainstream. Poorly constructed and biased studies are usually only given credibility and deemed reliable by those who WISH they were true, even though they make shocking headlines.

It will be interesting to see what conventional wisdom shows after all of the recent studies are analyzed. As you know, there are studies and then there are studies. They're all over the map with respect to almost any topic you can think of. Whether they are credible and accurate is what makes them worthwhile. Not just because we agree with one side or the other, or some clever person has figured out a way to make a case that goes against what most other studies have shown. For over a hundred years, and in many countries around the world, research has shown that capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. If the tide has changed, it will be very interesting to understand the nature of that change. Maybe when ALL of the results are in, you'll do us a favor by posting a link so we can read all about it.

rrod: how lucky you are to have so many sweet nurses to take care of you. My DH's niece had a little boy when she was 15. Just barely 15. She had a horrible home life. She and her boyfriend got married. Frankly I was relieved that she found a way to move out of that house! They are still together, and just had a baby girl. They have been married 7 years. Their daughter is 4 months old and she just found out that she is pregnant again. She is thrilled. The family isn't, but none of them have done much to help her. She finished high school, against all odds, worked in a retirement home and put herself through nursing school. Her husband has a habit of getting tired of any good job that he's ever had. And she is the stable one in their relationship. They love each other and they are crazy about their children. Sure they've had some ups and downs, but what marriage hasn't? I have the utmost respect for her and what she has accomplished in her young life. She is a great mother and by all rights, if she weren't so smart and loving, she could be an abuser like her father. As I said, I respect her very much and she deserves our respect more than any of the other kids in the family who have had everything they ever wanted and still don't have their acts together.

If that is true, why did you only post the side of the argument that gives the impression that recent studies show that the death penalty is a deterrent? You gleaned specific exerpts and said nothing about the parts of the article that disagreed that the studies proved anything. If you are completely on the fence about this issue, I'm very surprised.

rrod: I didn't think that your post was completely clear about what you did about the terrible problems your baby had before she was born. I assumed that you didn't find out about all of her medical problems until the 25th week of your pregnancy. Did you go to full term and deliver her? Although the answers aren't relevant to the question, "was I wrong?" You made the best decision you could make at the time, with all of the information and emotions and beliefs that you had at the time. Whatever you did, it is certainly not for any of us to decide whether you made the right decision. That decision was between you and your husband and your doctor. No one else has any right to tell you that what you chose to do was right or wrong. I too am very sorry for your loss. Of course you still grieve for your daughter. I will always grieve for my grandson, Jake, who was stillborn. Everytime we see a rainbow, we think that Jake is reminding us of his love. The day he died, we had the most beautiful rainbow any of us had ever seen.

You only included the statements that support your agenda. Below is more information in the article that you did not post. There were more statements to the effect that capital punishment is not a deterrent, but I won't bother to post them because we can all go there and read them if we're interested. But don't go giving the impression that it is accepted and acceptible that capital punishment is a deterrent to murder as stated by the article you posted a link to. "Ultimately, a panel was set up by the National Academy of Sciences which decided that Ehrlich’s conclusions were flawed. But the new pro-deterrent studies haven’t gotten that kind of scrutiny. At least not yet. The academic debate, and the larger national argument about the death penalty itself — with questions about racial and economic disparities in its implementation — shows no signs of fading away. "Steven Shavell, a professor of law and economics at Harvard Law School and co-editor-in-chief of the American Law and Economics Review, said in an e-mail exchange that his journal intends to publish several articles on the statistical studies on deterrence in an upcoming issue."

laurend: Sadder still is the fact that the lousy, stinking, dishonest, jerks concocted that ad and ran it and even got away with it!

Nothing in that article would lead one to believe that capital punishment is a deterrent to crime. However, at the end of the article it mentioned that a Harvard prof is planning to publish some related articles. They should be interesting to read.

I used to read all of Anne Rice's books, but eventually the movies turned me off so much I quit enjoying her books.

My intent was not to highjack the thread. But a guy I used to date told me that years ago Linda Ronstat came to the door to greet him wearing only a towel. I'd love to hear the Bob Dylan story. Anyone reading Dylan Thomas right now?

TinK: Thanks for your kind sentiments. Admittedly it has been rough to go through the deaths of my dad, my mother and my sister, and to now watch my MIL deteriorate. I agree with much of what you said. I didn't actually say that I am a big proponent of euthanasia. I agree that people should make their wishes known as well as they can and that we should all have a Living Will and a DNR if we believe that we do not wish to be kept alive artificially when there is no hope for recovery. I do have a big problem with keeping people alive like they kept my Dad alive. My MIL may still have the ability to fight back from her current problems. Having her doctor treat her with less than total respect is very hard to take, though. Aging people are not attractive, by society's standards and they have a hard time standing up for themselves, especially when they are sick. And they are discriminated against everywhere, just as fat people are. When there is a person who is in the hospital or a nursing home and the person is in relentless pain, with no chance of eventual recovery, I believe it is inhumane to keep them alive artificially. I cannot believe that my God would want that for any of us, despite passages in the Bible that may indicate otherwise. Putting it in writing does not assure the patient or the family that their wishes will always be respected, as proved in the case of my Dad. Some compassion must be felt for them by the people attending to their care. The fact is, as several who have posted here say, many health care professionals do have compassion and will not allow a patient to die a horrible, painful, long-drawn out death. Some of the medical profession cannot be trusted to put the patient first, however. That's why we need to make this a political issue. It's something most of us will have to deal with in our lifetime, either by ourselves or through someone we love. If God were here in person, talking responsibility for each and every human being and making a judgment call for each human being at these critical times, then I would say that we should turn it over to him. But he isn't here physically except in our minds and in our hearts, and we are only fallible human beings.

Nope, never had the occasion to meet the beautiful one. However my son was in the movie. No speaking lines. But what the hey, worth mentioning. Also worth mentioning is that I did see Led Zepplin in concert. Holey freaking freeholies - it was incredible. It even stands way out from the fantastic concerts that they stage today. Moody Blues was also another amazing concert. They oversold the tickets and I watched people put their elbows through the glass so they could break in - I was right behind them. They actually allowed the show to go on. Standing room only, even in the nosebleed seats and everyone got seriously stoned and back then some of the freaks were doing "hand trips." Very far out. But now that I'm more adult, a serious fire hazard. I saw Edgar Winter and White Trash in Richmond and their opening act was Don McLean. Can you even imagine? Don McLean was booed off the stage by all the freaks and in the women's rest room, I saw girls shooting up and snorting all manner of weird substances. Scared the living hell out of me. Leon Russell did a great concert in Tulsa that I saw outside, elbow to elbow with lots of crazy dudes. They passed pipes, cigarettes, and other things that I did not know existed. I survived the experience, but I was really afraid that big brother was watching my every move. Dude! This is way more fun than talking about books! Not exactly intellectual, but Memory Lane can be a good place to take a walk now and then.

Butterfly you just made my day! Everything you told us about your interaction with your two kids, sounds fantastic. Your responses to their reaching out to you were perfect and it means so much to them in this very upsetting time in their lives. They need to be able to grouse about their dad to someone and it is the best possible scenario is if they are able to talk with you about him without any criticism or any "I told you so's" You did GREAT!!! You're going to be going through lots of stages during this time of transition. You're bound to want to vent and get it all off your chest. This is a great place to do it. I think all you'll get is support from the good people here. In fact, many of us have been through similar experiences and know how difficult this whole thing is for you. I am so impressed too when I looked and noticed your 91 lb. loss!!!! Eat my heart out! I know you're concerned because you're forgetting to eat, and you do need to keep your metabolism up and running, but it sure sounds good to me to be in a place where you're not consumed with thoughts about where you're going to find the next great thing to eat. Any advice for me about that? I was banded in September and I've lost around 40 lbs., all in the first few months. The last 3 months I have not lost a pound.

Yup, that's their M.O. I'm sorry to know that it happened to someone in your state. I always hold out hope that the public sees through that crap. But the fact is, most people want to believe the worst about people. The arse-holes plant a lie in with something that is actually true and it is almost impossible to fix the damage it does.

Boy am I out of touch with that party. Who's Harold Ford, Jr. and what's he up to?

Butterfly your last post sounded lots better. And things will continue to get better. It won't be easy and it will never be the same, but it can be better even if it is different. I never, ever spoke badly to my son about his biological father. Finally when he got old enough to think about that he asked me the question I'd been waiting for. He said, "Mom, if Dad is such a nice guy and you don't dislike him, why did you get a divorce?" That was my cue. I finally explained to him, gently, what all his father had done to cause the divorce. He didn't understand everything of course, but he began to understand a little. Now he is an adult and his biological father has tried to all of a sudden be a part of his life. The biological father is extremely religious and has tried to give my son all kinds of advice about how he should live his life and be more religious, etc. Now my son says to me, "how did you EVER love him?" You will be so much better off in the long run if you stick to your policy of not putting him down to them. They will, before too long, put two and two together and you will look like a saint to them, compared to him. A good friend of mine and her husband divorced when her kids were just entering college. The kids decided to live with him. They were old enough to choose. She was extremely hurt, but she understood because he had money and resources. He was happy and not struggling with anything. She was poor, living in a small apartment (away from their kids' friends.) The dad was having a free, exciting bachelor life. She was trying to figure out how she was going to survive. Then she had to have both knees replaced not long after the divorce. Neither of her children, or her ex-husband were willing to help her out. She did all of the rehab on her own. She struggled through it for months and just about the time she thought she wouldn't be able to do it, she realized how strong she was and that she actually COULD do it. She and her kids are now closer than ever. They don't live with either of their parents now (the father wound up driving them crazy with his demands) but they spend almost all their free time with her. Think about it for a minute. If you're a young person, where would you rather be? Hanging at a place where things are upbeat, where there's no sadness, no stress? Or at a place with someone who is deeply wounded and frightened and stressed? It doesn't have anything to do with their feelings for you. They probably love you a whole, whole lot. But they are just trying to survive in all of this too. And the most comfortable place they can be, in their previous home, is what feels the most stable for them right now. Once you get into a more comfortable routine and you find your way and start working toward the goals you wish to achieve, you will be happier and they will be more comfortable being around you. Right now, it is very important that you heal from the divorce. You are undoubtedly wounded and have so much to sort out in order to map out the rest of your life. Take this time to get it together and I think you'll realize, like my friend did, that the divorce may have been the best thing that ever happened to you.

Laurend: Recent history tells us that the Republicans will pull out all the stops to retain control of the White House. Right now it is early and they are pretty much playing by the book. But it will change when things get closer and tighter. They will wage a war over the internet. In the past they've done everything you can imagine to plant doubt in the voters' minds about the opposition. They do not mind concocting very believable stories about the Democratic candidate. During Nixon's time they did it with snail mail. This time it will be through emails. They managed to do it to Kerry, horribly, and it worked. Although I'm the first to admit that Kerry was a weak debater and his campaign retoric became very stilted toward the latter part of his campaign. It has to be awfully difficult to go through what he and his wife went through in that campaign. Al Gore made mistakes too. His first mistake was not allowing Bill Clinton to go out and stump for him. He under estimated the power of Clinton's popularity. But what really beat both of them was the extremely powerful and united front that the Republicans had. The fact that they have such an unpopular President at this point may cause them to splinter a bit which would hurt them. But I don't think that is likely because in these early debates, all the Republican candidates have the platform down pat. None of them seems to be willing to buck the Republican machine. And who can blame them? They could probably never get elected without it. But after all my yammering, I just want to say that many people think that a Democrat is a shoo-in, and I absolutely believe that it is too early to know for sure because there is no end the political dirty tricks that the Republican party is capable of. (No, Democrats are not immune to dirty politics, but in the past they were not willing to go to the extremely dishonest lengths that the Republicans were.)

laurend, I'm not like Carlene. I didn't want anyone to know. I've suffered too many diet failures and had to face people afterwards. I didn't know if this would work for me and I just didn't want to have to deal with the comments and questions. As it is, I told a couple of women who are neighbors and I don't see them very frequently. So everytime I see them, they check me out and wonder how much weight I've lost. Well I haven't lost ANY in the last 3 months so now I have to explain what's going on and assure them that I have not given up the fight. I can do it, but I wish it weren't a topic of conversation. If they thought I'd just lost some weight, they'd be impressed right now. As it is, they're wondering why I'm not losing more. I too used to cry when I got very angry. I am certainly over that now. And as you get older and more self-confident about your own intellect and ability to deal with stupid, cruel people, you will get over it too. Bitter has it spot on. We shouldn't care what others think, probably especially those in our families who should be our support system. As I've gotten older I'm almost too outspoken when someone ticks me off. I think I scare some younger people because they're so used to being terribly sweet to keep the peace. Like I USED to be. Believe me you do not have to hurt someone's feelings though just to keep from being hurt yourself. Just listen to Bitter. I honestly think she's right about this. You can always just get up and leave the room if someone brings it up and you don't want to talk about it. You can tell them that you have to go PB, but then you don't have to actually DO it. They aren't worth the waste of good chow.

One word: Homophobia. It's a hold over from years and years of men being scared to death that gay men are going to hit on them, I guess. I mean nothing else makes any sense to me. Of course that is an extremely ignorant thought process, but what else is there? All this talk about gays not being allowed to marry is another stupid, stupid issue. When you confront those who argue against it, and ask why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry, they come up with all manner of bogus reasons, like higher health insurance premiums because of AIDS, etc. Right wingers will narrow-mindedly argue that God didn't create Adam and Adam, He created Adam and Eve. Boggles the mind, doesn't it. Sometimes the stupidity in this country makes me want to cry. If Americans don't get rid of this administration in the next elections, I am clearly in the wrong country.