America's decline of morality

[pattygreen 5]

Could you "choose" tomorrow to stop loving your husband or your children? You could choose to behave as though you have stopped, but could you really just make the choice to stop? I know lots of people, myself included, who have sincerely tried to feel this magical belief so many people claim to have, without success. I maintain that it is not a choice at its most basic level. Professing faith in a religion is a choice...actually having it is not.

Humans are easily suggestible, though. I don't think many people really examine their feelings closely enough in the matter of religion. They swallow what they have been taught without really thinking about it.

For me, this was not the case. I was raised in the catholic religion. When I got older, I pondered God. I was enticed to read the bible to see if there was something more to this life that I was missing. The first time I ever opened the book, I read from John chapter 3, the story of Nicodemus about being born twice. I felt it was crazy. Like him, I replied "How can a man be born twice. Bull sh*t." Yet, I continued to read and before long, I was a believer. I began to comprehend the spiritual things because God's Holy Spirit came to live within me and opened my eyes to the truth. (needless to say, I left the catholic religion, cause once you have read the bible through, you 'see' where they filled you with a bunch of their own teachings, rules and doctrines- just like most religions) Christianity is not like that. It's a 'relationship' with God. All other religions require something of you. Some sort of work on your part. Not so with Christianity. Just a faith in Jesus. That's all.

[Alexandra 55]

Christianity is not like that. It's a 'relationship' with God. All other religions require something of you. Some sort of work on your part. Not so with Christianity. Just a faith in Jesus. That's all.

There are many faiths that consist of little more than a relationship with a Divine Being. They may or may not incorporate a "saviour" mythology, and they may or may not have many facets in common with one another. Do you acknowledge them as being equally "real" as your own?

[plain 12]

We've been through this already on another thread. Read the Bible some time. god loves him some death and destruction.

Oh, right. Maybe I should read the Bible......heh.....

[BethFromVA 5]

Could Humans are easily suggestible, though. I don't think many people really examine their feelings closely enough in the matter of religion. They swallow what they have been taught without really thinking about it.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but this sweeping generalization isn't exactly fair. Any more fair than if somebody were to say that those who reject proof of God must have their heads up their rears. I only say this to show that that's not necessarily true, is it?

You are entitled not to believe, but to knock those of us who do the way you do -- well, I would imagine if the same was done to you (and considering who you're posting with, it may have happened :cursing:), you'd think the person saying it had a screw loose.

[Alexandra 55]

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but this sweeping generalization isn't exactly fair. Any more fair than if somebody were to say that those who reject proof of God must have their heads up their rears. I only say this to show that that's not necessarily true, is it?

You are entitled not to believe, but to knock those of us who do the way you do -- well, I would imagine if the same was done to you (and considering who you're posting with, it may have happened :cursing:), you'd think the person saying it had a screw loose.

I'm not knocking anyone, Beth. I'm saying what have found to be the case, that many people profess to a religion simply because it's what they were brought up with. They may never have really examined their own feelings and beliefs, but go through their entire lives simply parroting what they were taught. Depending on the social order, they may go through their whole lives not even knowing they could think for themselves about religion. That's one effect of a state-mandated religion, and why it comes perilously close to brainwashing.

I daresay these are the people least likely to get into conversations like this one, though. :sad:

In any event, I'm not knocking the fact of belief or anyone who embraces any particular religion. All I ask is that everyone grant everyone else the freedom to choose for themselves. That is to say--keep it out of the social order.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Alexandra

[pattygreen 5]

There are many faiths that consist of little more than a relationship with a Divine Being. They may or may not incorporate a "saviour" mythology, and they may or may not have many facets in common with one another. Do you acknowledge them as being equally "real" as your own?

Can you name me one?

[KartMan 58]

Can you name me one?

Odd answer, why would you assume that Christianity has a monopoly on that? Here are a few:

Judaism

Christianity

Islam

Several “Nature Religions”

Greek Mythology

[Alexandra 55]

Can you name me one?

Kartman's right. People worship the Divine in all sorts of ways, many with elaborate mythologies and stories shoring up the basic tenets, but just as many without. What does it matter what they're "named"? You said:

...Christianity is not like that. It's a 'relationship' with God. All other religions require something of you. Some sort of work on your part. Not so with Christianity. Just a faith in Jesus. That's all.

...which is, actually, self-contradictory. Which is it? A relationship with God or a faith in Jesus? And in any event, you started this thread by saying that the US has lost its way by not expecting its citizens to live by a Christian code. That sounds a lot like you think Christianity actually DOES require something of its followers.

[KartMan 58]

Oops, you just found another paradox Alexandra, or mabey its just a contrdiction - I get so confused sometimes.

[Alexandra 55]

Yeah, Kartman, there's no undoing the tangled web we weave... :cursing:

[BethFromVA 5]

I'm not knocking anyone, Beth. I'm saying what have found to be the case, that many people profess to a religion simply because it's what they were brought up with. They may never have really examined their own feelings and beliefs, but go through their entire lives simply parroting what they were taught. Depending on the social order, they may go through their whole lives not even knowing they could think for themselves about religion. That's one effect of a state-mandated religion, and why it comes perilously close to brainwashing.

I daresay these are the people least likely to get into conversations like this one, though. :sad:

In any event, I'm not knocking the fact of belief or anyone who embraces any particular religion. All I ask is that everyone grant everyone else the freedom to choose for themselves. That is to say--keep it out of the social order.

Okay, then I misunderstood. I apologize.

However, I have to say that I was not raised with any religion and I found what I found on my own. And I have to say that most people I know personally would say the same thing. I know you said you believe most were raised a certain way, and that may be true, but I have found the opposite.

You better believe that the only thing that keeps me believing is faith, especially when I see what man can do to man (i.e. 17-year-old rapes and murders baby, etc.). I don't understand many things I can SEE and FEEL, so for me, believing in God is less of a stretch, if you will.

Besides that, I only know where God has intervened in my life and set things in motion which have benefitted me. I know many may call that karma or luck or planetary alignment or whatever, but for me, it's God. :cursing:

[BethFromVA 5]

Christianity is not like that. It's a 'relationship' with God. All other religions require something of you. Some sort of work on your part. Not so with Christianity. Just a faith in Jesus. That's all.

I know these are actually Patty's words (I have her on ignore but saw this quoted), but, even though I believe in God as well, Alexandra is right. Christianity DOES require something of its followers, and you said what that requirement is: Faith.

[pattygreen 5]

Odd answer, why would you assume that Christianity has a monopoly on that? Here are a few:

Judaism

Christianity

Islam

Several “Nature Religions”

Greek Mythology

Because Christianity does have a monopoly on that. There is no other faith out there except christianity that doesn't demand a person to 'work' (be good, follow laws, go door to door, recite prayers, etc.) for their salvation. Religion is man's way of working to receive an eternal place in Heaven, and Christianity is God's way, his gift to us, reaching down and saving man on no merit of his own. Simply God's grace extended to us. You will not be able to find a religion out there that doesn't expect you to 'work' or 'do' something to be saved.

In Judaism, if the people observed the rules of the Torah, they expected to be saved.

In the Islam religion, forgiveness is based on a combination of Allah's grace and muslims works. On the day of judgement, if a muslims good works outweigh his bad ones, and if Allah so allows it, he may be forgiven and then enter into Paradise. Their book says, "To those who do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward." (Surah 5:9)

God knew that man was not able to live without sin in their lives. We can't follow the laws. So, in his Grace and love for us, he provided a way for us to be saved.

[pattygreen 5]

Kartman's right. People worship the Divine in all sorts of ways, many with elaborate mythologies and stories shoring up the basic tenets, but just as many without. What does it matter what they're "named"? You said:

...which is, actually, self-contradictory. Which is it? A relationship with God or a faith in Jesus? And in any event, you started this thread by saying that the US has lost its way by not expecting its citizens to live by a Christian code. That sounds a lot like you think Christianity actually DOES require something of its followers.

Every persons belief in something starts with their faith. Faith is not a tangible work. Once you believe, a relationship begins.

It is true that after a person chooses to believe in God, that they then desire to obey him. But, it is not required for salvation. It would be best if they did obey him, because once they died, there will be a judgment and they will be disciplined for their deeds (or God may discipline them in some way now), but it is not a judgment of their salvation,(where they will spend their eternity) for that was settled once they chose to believe in Jesus, but it is a judgment of the deeds done in the flesh.

It's like this: A man has a child. That child does many things aginst his fathers will. His father will discipline him, but will the child ever cease to be his child? No. He will always be his child.

In America, we have turned our backs on God, therefore, he disciplines us. A father disciplines his children by removing blessings from them (privileges), bringing pain (spanking) or allowing consequences for their actions. When we allow things like Homosexuality to be legalized, there will be consequences for it. (AIDS, The breakdown of the family and its values, immorality among us, etc.) When we allow millions of unborn babies to be aborted, the consequences are a removal of His blessings upon us or they could be individual conseqyences.(My sisterinlaw had 3 abortions when she was young cause she wasn't ready to have kids yet, then when she wanted to have kids later in her life, she was unable to. I'm not saying that was definitely God's discipline for her, but it could have been.) When we took prayer out of schools,etc., God began to remove his blessings from us. "You don't want to know me or ask me to bless you? Fine."

[Alexandra 55]

Every persons belief in something starts with their faith. Faith is not a tangible work. Once you believe, a relationship begins.

It is true that after a person chooses to believe in God, that they then desire to obey him. But, it is not required for salvation. It would be best if they did obey him, because once they died, there will be a judgment and they will be disciplined for their deeds (or God may discipline them in some way now), but it is not a judgment of their salvation,(where they will spend their eternity) for that was settled once they chose to believe in Jesus, but it is a judgment of the deeds done in the flesh.

It's like this: A man has a child. That child does many things aginst his fathers will. His father will discipline him, but will the child ever cease to be his child? No. He will always be his child.

In America, we have turned our backs on God, therefore, he disciplines us. A father disciplines his children by removing blessings from them (privileges), bringing pain (spanking) or allowing consequences for their actions. When we allow things like Homosexuality to be legalized, there will be consequences for it. (AIDS, The breakdown of the family and its values, immorality among us, etc.) When we allow millions of unborn babies to be aborted, the consequences are a removal of His blessings upon us or they could be individual conseqyences.(My sisterinlaw had 3 abortions when she was young cause she wasn't ready to have kids yet, then when she wanted to have kids later in her life, she was unable to. I'm not saying that was definitely God's discipline for her, but it could have been.) When we took prayer out of schools,etc., God began to remove his blessings from us. "You don't want to know me or ask me to bless you? Fine."

America has not turned its back on God at all. What about those surveys that consistently find America to be one of the most religious populations out there? More Americans believe in a Divine than don't. But you're ticked because America doesn't claim YOUR God to be the one for everyone. And America doesn't use YOUR Bible as the basis for its civil laws.

You're not talking about God or the Divine at all. You're talking about a code of behavior that you find written in your favorite book. And since you find truth and safety in it, you want to force others to live the same way. Sorry, but this country protects its citizens' right to read other books. In this country, thanks to our Founders, one's relationship with the Divine of his or her understanding can be a private thing. They deliberately set out to ensure that remains the case via the First Amendment. No one gropup gets to call the shots. Our laws MUST be based on the commonalities we share in our HUMANITY, not religion.

I'm truly glad that you find so much certainty and comfort in your beliefs, Pattygreen, and you should be glad that your country allows you to publicly profess them. In many places that's not the case.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Alexandra