Why are people afraid of atheism?

TommyO · May 15, 2008

Comments like that in the literal bible are the ones you can't take literally, from what I have been told it's like reading the sports section of the newspaper.

Geesh!! don't you know anything!!!!

brandyII · May 15, 2008

I am referring to the kind of prayer where someone asks their God for a favor of sorts. Save the baby from the train wreck kind of question.
Take God out of the scenario, who are you asking to save the baby?

I understand meditation, I did a great deal of it as a twinkie. Did the chants and all! ;o) But if you ask God to do something either he says no, or if he does it then he was going to do it anyway so what's the point? If he does change the great cosmic plan, then he doesn't know everything before it happens because prayer made him change his mind about the plan.

I know where you're coming from somewhat, won't say totally because I'm not you. I prefer to call myself "a fallen Catholic" but still "spiritual". I see how difficult it would be for you to out yourself as an atheist. In certain circumstances it's difficult for me to out myself as a fallen Catholic or my daughter when she was wiccan and wanted to become a "High Priestess".

How do you explain to the neighbors that she's not a satan worshiper even though she's traced a pentagram on the patio and has candles lit all around it at one of her feast days ceremonies in her black cape. She's finally found out that the wiccan community are not really what she thought they were and has left those beliefs behind her but still is a very intelligent and spiritual person. Maybe I don't know exactly what makes a person spiritual, maybe it's just a term I use to explain the feelings we have towards other people and living things. The good parts we've taken from religions, moral codes and such, Karma etc...

I don't believe in organized religion for myself and always felt as if I were going through the motions during any Catholic service I've ever attended. It just seemed off to me and not true to who I was. It took maturity on my part to acknowledge that.

Some people need some type of spiritual belief in order to get through their every day life or feel it's for naught. I've felt guilty at times because I did not force Christianity on them, I admit that. I wouldn't be human if I didn't question myself at times. And they were never baptized. Imagine how my Catholic relatives feel about that!

Anyway I don't feel I am atheist or agnostic, I think there are a lot of people that lead similar lives. I respect your right to practice atheism and it's good to teach people about it so that they're not affraid and gain some knowledge etc...but other than that I don't know what the purpose of this debate really is.

WASaBubbleButt · May 15, 2008

but other than that I don't know what the purpose of this debate really is.

I think there is always value in trying to understand people with differing POVs.

anonemouse · May 15, 2008

Plain...
We see what she is saying, she isn't seeing what we are saying.

Do you suppose it is easy to be an atheist in today's society? Most hide it, they have to. It's not nice to discuss atheism in front of others, everyone takes offense. They ask why we lack belief and when we tell them they are insulted.

You know, I was raised Roman Catholic. It's no easy task to go from Catholic to atheist. I remember many years ago I was seriously struggling with my faith. I wanted to believe, but none of it made a bit of sense.

So I started reading the bible. To be honest, the more I seriously studied the bible the more I realized I could no longer force myself to believe in Christianity. I was horrified by what I was reading, there was no way I could call any of that morality.

So here I am, a Catholic with no faith. So I went out searching for a God I could believe in. I attended every church, I did it all. I even took the spiffy little classes to become Jewish. That didn't work out either because no matter how hard I tried I couldn't believe any of that either.

Then came New Age. I was a true blue New Age Twinkie.

Finally, one day it hit me. I really don't believe in this stuff. I can't force myself to believe and I can no longer trick myself into believing. I lack belief. I dawned on me that this makes me an atheist.

Atheism is not something anyone strives to be, it's not like that. It's more like... one day you get down and dirty honest with yourself and you realize, admit, and accept that you are an atheist. We don't "choose" to not believe, that's silly. Belief is either there or it isn't. If I tell you that Santa Claus is real, do you "choose" to believe it or do you simply know it isn't true? It's not a choice, either you believe Santa is real or you don't.

It took me 20 years to undo the Catholic upbringing and get a grip on what my feelings really are and what my opinions are. I was fighting with myself tooth and nail struggling to force myself to believe. Twenty years, Plain.

Then some Christian comes along and tells me that my fight of 20 years means nothing if someone believes that is ignorant. Instead, she is Christian so the slams and insults mean more.

They don't mean more, slams and insults are just that. I don't care if you struggled for 20 years to maintain belief or if you struggled for 20 years to GET some level of belief, we are all made up of our own history.

I'm not really sure if it is harder to believe in the impossible or if it is harder to be honest with those around you and admit you are an atheist. And nope, not being sarcastic. I'm dead serious.

So this claim that idiot means more to her than it does to us... it's crap. Nothing more, nothing less.

Extremely well said, Wasa. I went to church every Sunday for 18 years. I WANTED to believe. The problem was, I didn't, and nothing I did or hoped or thought was able to change that. It's very difficult to be a non-believer in this country, and I don't think many believers understand just how difficult it is. People think nothing about talking about God, about their disgust towards "perverted" lifestyles, about their disgust towards or dislike of non-Christians, etc. because they automatically ASSUME that the person they are talking to is just like them, a Christian. How do you think that makes the person they're talking to feel, if they're an Atheist? It sure doesn't make us feel like saying, "Aww, that's okay. You just feel strongly about that because you're a Christian." It sometimes hurts and it's honestly scary, in some cases. In most places in this country, if you admit that you're an Atheist, you get "the look." You know, the raised eyebrow, the slight (or in some cases, more than slight) look of disgust. Living in the Bible Belt, I don't publicly proclaim my Atheism, unless I feel like I am surrounded by like-believing people or otherwise feel safe. Yet, I'm supposed to feel less offended by having my very personal, very strong beliefs attacked because I'm not a Christian?

brandyII · May 15, 2008

I think there is always value in trying to understand people with differing POVs.

Yes this is true but it seems as though we're beating a dead horse:whatchutalkingabout

brandyII · May 15, 2008

I think that's why it's a good thing to move out of the bible belt if at all possible, lol and live somewhere where there are lots of different types of people. I benefited from growing up in the D.C. area, it's as far from the bible belt as you could get. I live in a small town in upstate, NY where it's more white bread but still it's NY.

Fanny Adams · May 15, 2008

Wasa, your story sounds familiar, except for the very beginning. I was born into a Church of England family, but my father is a lapsed believer, while my mother is a staunch atheist. Starting at around 10, I became interested in spiritual matters and started going to church by myself to take bible lessons, and had myself confirmed at 12. I lapsed for a couple of years (first two years of high school, when I was being a rebellious little snot), and then went seeking again. I did the full gamut - Children of God, Anunda Maga, Hari Krishna and ended up being baptised into Christianity in the Church of Christ in my mid-teens.

I left there several years later when a group of gossipy, back-stabbing girls and their close-minded parents demonstrated to me how hypocritical their beliefs were when translated into reality. I did the whole astrology, tarot, meditation thing, and even dabbled in Satanism. At one stage had myself convinced I knew how to astral travel and had personally grappled with demons for my soul! Later I learned about hypnogogia and sleep paralysis and those little escapades finally made sense :party:.

The more I sought, the more I learned, the more I read about the human psyche and the power of our minds to convince ourselves of just about anything, the more I came to the conclusion that it was all myth and fantasy. One of my all time favourite books about this concept is The Social Construction of Reality.

I don't doubt the sincerity of believers. I know how powerful and convincing those emotions can be. I just also know that it is our own minds convincing ourselves about a non-existant external "god", to satisfy multiple complex needs in individuals and society.

Fanny Adams · May 15, 2008

Extremely well said, Wasa. I went to church every Sunday for 18 years. I WANTED to believe. The problem was, I didn't, and nothing I did or hoped or thought was able to change that. It's very difficult to be a non-believer in this country, and I don't think many believers understand just how difficult it is. People think nothing about talking about God, about their disgust towards "perverted" lifestyles, about their disgust towards or dislike of non-Christians, etc. because they automatically ASSUME that the person they are talking to is just like them, a Christian. How do you think that makes the person they're talking to feel, if they're an Atheist? It sure doesn't make us feel like saying, "Aww, that's okay. You just feel strongly about that because you're a Christian." It sometimes hurts and it's honestly scary, in some cases. In most places in this country, if you admit that you're an Atheist, you get "the look." You know, the raised eyebrow, the slight (or in some cases, more than slight) look of disgust. Living in the Bible Belt, I don't publicly proclaim my Atheism, unless I feel like I am surrounded by like-believing people or otherwise feel safe. Yet, I'm supposed to feel less offended by having my very personal, very strong beliefs attacked because I'm not a Christian?

This part is very weird for me. My society is VERY secular, and those with religious beliefs tend to keep it very much to themselves. Proclaiming religious beliefs publically is what would get you "those looks", not stating that you were an atheist. Even the very devout (and I have a couple in my extended family, including an ordained minister in the Church of England and a lay preacher in the Church of Christ), look upon the US style of ostentatious religion with distaste.

brandyII · May 15, 2008

Fanny, you're a cool and really smart lady! I don't think I could compete with some of you when it comes to Jepardy! I must admit I did not get the best education from the Catholic school system. I'll blame them and didn't finish college because I was more interested in moving out of my house so I got a job, met my dh and he finished school and got his masters so it's okay. I just wanted to make sure my two daughters got very good educations and my eldest graduates with her bachelors on Saturday and will begin her masters program in the fall. My youngest will start her third year of college in the fall. My three brothers all have doctorates and my sister has her masters. I am the only uneducated one in the family!

I know it's a bit off the subject but I just wanted to state that I think you group of ladies are way out of my league when it comes to "smarts"!

I do still dabble though in astrology and wish I could do charts but it's too hard for me on my own and need to take a class. I also picked up the tarot cards from my daughter and she bought me a set of my own and I tend you use them when I feel pressed on a problem! There really is no name for my belief system but it's okay and I'm okay with every belief system as long as they don't persecute others etc...brandyII.

brandyII · May 15, 2008

This part is very weird for me. My society is VERY secular, and those with religious beliefs tend to keep it very much to themselves. Proclaiming religious beliefs publically is what would get you "those looks", not stating that you were an atheist. Even the very devout (and I have a couple in my extended family, including an ordained minister in the Church of England and a lay preacher in the Church of Christ), look upon the US style of ostentatious religion with distaste.

Isn't that what people have said about European countries too? It kind of makes me laugh. I don't know why we're so different in so many ways here. Don't Americans tend to share more info than most other countries too? I mean when you meet people we talk too much or something.

My daughter studied in Germany for a while and everyone was from a different part of the world and the only thing they had in common was their ability to speak the German language and it was the best experience of her life, well so far:thumbup:

Fanny Adams · May 15, 2008

Brandy, I try not to put people down for their beliefs, although the young earth proponents trying to pass themselves off as actual science will get me ranting fairly quickly :party:

My bestus girlfriend still asks me to read the Tarot for her, whenever she has a major life decision to make. She knows that I don't believe any of it, but it can be fun to play with and she takes the readings a lot more seriously than I do. This is a girl with a Masters in Education too, so she's not uneducated!

RE the differing societies, I think a lot of it has to do with the historical roots of the countries. Europe has seen the rise and fall of many religions from pre-historic days, through the Grecian and Roman eras to modern Christianity. They've also seen the hypocrisy, pain and suffering brought about by religious institutions and I think they are collectively trying to "move on" from that. The USA was founded specifically by people seeking a safe haven to express their religious beliefs and I think the entire concept of religion is embedded in the fabric of your society. Australia was founded as a penal colony and our early settlers were the scattered few of the English ruling class and a main population of people with anti-authoritarian and rebellious tendencies. Religion has just never been that big of a deal here. When it was common in society, it was present, but it isn't as deeply tied in with our identity as Australians as it is tied to your identity as Americans. As secularism spread, it has been embraced here, whereas the US seems to cling to religion as part of its heritage.

brandyII · May 15, 2008

Brandy, I try not to put people down for their beliefs, although the young earth proponents trying to pass themselves off as actual science will get me ranting fairly quickly :party:
My bestus girlfriend still asks me to read the Tarot for her, whenever she has a major life decision to make. She knows that I don't believe any of it, but it can be fun to play with and she takes the readings a lot more seriously than I do. This is a girl with a Masters in Education too, so she's not uneducated!

RE the differing societies, I think a lot of it has to do with the historical roots of the countries. Europe has seen the rise and fall of many religions from pre-historic days, through the Grecian and Roman eras to modern Christianity. They've also seen the hypocrisy, pain and suffering brought about by religious institutions and I think they are collectively trying to "move on" from that. The USA was founded specifically by people seeking a safe haven to express their religious beliefs and I think the entire concept of religion is embedded in the fabric of your society. Australia was founded as a penal colony and our early settlers were the scattered few of the English ruling class and a main population of people with anti-authoritarian and rebellious tendencies. Religion has just never been that big of a deal here. When it was common in society, it was present, but it isn't as deeply tied in with our identity as Australians as it is tied to your identity as Americans. As secularism spread, it has been embraced here, whereas the US seems to cling to religion as part of its heritage.

I don't think you're putting down people if you have nothing to stand up for you have nothing right? Everyone has something they're passionate about and this has not been my passion but is interesting reading.

I finally looked up young earth as I had never heard of it prior to some of these postings and can see where you'd think they were a bit of a loon, I would also. Not trying to offend any of them on this forum but it's just not my bag!

As for the tarot readings my 19 year old is the one who is gifted. I've always said she is very spiritual because I was pregnant with her when my maternal grandmother died and she was a very devout Catholic. My other grandmother was not a practicing Christian and told me stories about Edgar Caysie and others so as you can see they were quite opposite in some ways and similar in others. My daughter also sees auras and mine is pink, whatever that means. My brother sees halos and I'm not sure if that's something of a gift or something of a disorder, lol. He says he's only seen a few and I have one go figure:lol:!

Anyway I'll keep on reading these as long as they're posted, thanks brandyII.

And it's interesting to think of Australia as being kind of rebellious because of it's start as a penal colony, never thought of that. Oh and when my sister was visiting Australia she was in Sidney and Cairnes and wasn't familiar with any of those foods you mentioned but said she would go to the bakery because they made the best cream custard, don't know if it was a tart or not though.

Edited May 15, 2008 by brandyII

plain · May 15, 2008

So why did he say "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto thee"? If that was actually said by a real being, then it's a lie.

Again, I can only speak for my church, but I believe that this is referring to receiving Christ and salvation. Although there have been some televangelists that claim that "God wants you to drive a caddy....all ya gotta do is pray (and send me a large gift offering)", I think most Christians get the gist of the verse.

plain · May 15, 2008

At one stage had myself convinced I knew how to astral travel and had personally grappled with demons for my soul! Later I learned about hypnogogia and sleep paralysis and those little escapades finally made sense :party:.

Fanny, do you have Narcolepsy? PM me if too personal and I've overstepped courtesy...

plain · May 15, 2008

Wasa and Laurend....I had no idea that you each had so much emotion and pain tied up in your atheism. I can certainly see how somebody belittling your beliefs could be very hurtful to you. Unfortunately, there are insensitive jerks in every group (Christian and atheist). That's why I think everybody should be at least respectful to each other, even if our beliefs are polar opposites.