I know this was mentioned before here in the Vegans/Vegetarians forums and I wanted to maybe start this thread for all things pertaining to the book that Dr. Garth Davis authored, Proteinaholic. So far I'm on chapter 6 of it and I'm just amazed with how sound it is and all the studies that are out there to support why we don't need such a high amount of protein, and why it's a culprit of obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc.... There's just so much to talk about if anyone wants to get into discussion. Now, this thread IS NOT going to be for debate. I do not want anyone coming on here advocating high protein and what they "know" and debating with any of us who are or evolving into plant based, vegans or vegetarians. I want to share the things I've learned from the book and if anyone wants to challenge those, READ THE BOOK FIRST, and then you can come and talk about it. If you don't or haven't read the book, feel free to read the things that will be posted...and do your own homework to find these facts/truths out for yourself. I literally don't have time to do a protein ping pong match...so don't start one. You will be ignored.

Okay, with that said and out of the way, the first thing I want to mention is that Dr. Davis actually dispels the myths about protein and why our bodies don't need so much. It is not an opinionated book, it's a science/fact book. It makes TOTAL sense. He is quite comical too. The parts where he plays out his doctor/patient dialogues hit me the most...because I can relate to how I was educated about protein being what we all need. I had the same mentalities as he did regarding it, but after I started watching documentaries on plant based diets for the past couple of years, I've slowly become open to all the health benefits of eating plant based. But now, even though I knew plant based is great for the health, I didn't know that the protein component was/is what was causing so many problems in my health, my husband's, etc. Now, I've got science and truth to understand the premise of protein. The history of why, what Dr Davis talks about, we western society pick apart whole foods and live based off of macronutrients. Now, it just boggles me why we do that. The other thing that rings true and is nice knowing, is that he is a bariatric surgeon too. He knows what he's coaching/telling his patients. He knows that he was not a nutritionist, didn't know a single thing, but the one hour of nutrition studies in his school days, but he took the time to dive into history, studies, reports, etc to bring light to why western society is so unhealthy, and most of it is based on animal protein.

Wow.

Read the book!

Ok, Newme17. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Here's an interesting article:

http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/06/14/vegans-can-have-a-protein-deficiency

Basically it's a good reminder that we don't have to guess at things like protein status.. there are tests! We all need to be sure to get our vitamin/protein levels tested regularly, regardless of diet chosen.

6 minutes ago, Newme17 said:

Ezekiel bread is awesome....good for you too. Check out the ingredients:

Organic Sprouted Wheat, Filtered Water, Organic Sprouted Barley, Organic Sprouted Millet, Organic Malted Barley, Organic Sprouted Lentils, Organic Sprouted Soybeans, Organic Sprouted Spelt, Fresh Yeast, Organic Wheat Gluten, Sea Salt.

I have Ezekial bread in the freezer. I love it, toasted after having been frozen. Still not good plain though! (Love butter on toast).

I just don't have room in my diet for it yet (looking forward to having it when I reach goal!)

Fluff.. man, you drew the short straw when it comes to being a baker! Eek! Fingers crossed for you too, that surgery can help your diabetes!

5 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

Ok, Newme17. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Here's an interesting article:

http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/06/14/vegans-can-have-a-protein-deficiency

Basically it's a good reminder that we don't have to guess at things like Protein status.. there are tests! We all need to be sure to get our vitamin/protein levels tested regularly, regardless of diet chosen.

Interesting article from a journalist though....so I'd like to see some scientific resources with it (he doesn't list any---makes me have to be cautious about believing these types of articles). I do know that there is 3% of Americans who are actually protein deficient (there are sources listed in Proteinaholic and nutritionfacts.org). The lady he writes about could be that 3%...also she was raw vegan (I don't know too much about it). Also, I eat eggs and cheese still and have the occasional protein shake. I'm not lethargic, pale, or anything either. Hubby says he's amazed at the level of energy I have and I don't complain. LOL So, I still stick to "it takes care of itself" for what I'm doing. Thanks though!!

13 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

I have Ezekial bread in the freezer. I love it, toasted after having been frozen. Still not good plain though! (Love butter on toast).

I just don't have room in my diet for it yet (looking forward to having it when I reach goal!)

It is pretty filling...that's why I don't do any breads at this point. Maybe some fresh fruit on top??

Edited September 26, 20178 yr by Newme17

Umm.. maybe you didn't add up my given quantities of protein.
Oats: 10
Beans: 32
Nuts: 8
Total: 50.
The minimum protein required for an average female is 46g, so this only has 4 more grams than the bare minimum... and not enough for a man (who needs 56g).
Nowhere in the veg-based conversation have I stated people need 80g of protein. What I keep saying is with our limited stomach size, it's really, really hard to meet our protein needs through UNPROCESSED plant based foods.
News alert: protein shakes are extremely processed. "Boca burgers" probably are too..I don't know what they are, so that's an assumption.
Since we are talking about a "whole food, plant based" diet, I'm trying to show just how difficult it is to meet our nutritional needs that way.
Add in a bit of animal protein or processed veggie-protein shakes, and you'll be covered.
But if people want to be purists, they pretty much have to rely on beans and nuts all day (or processed bean noodles and tofu). I'm not saying it's impossible.. I'm saying it is HARD and takes planning and what I keep hearing is people saying, "don't worry, it'll take care of itself" and. it. won't.

I agree with you that it is a struggle to get in what you need. I’m only 8 weeks postop and every day is a battle. I didn’t mean to say it was easy. I definitely have plant-based protein powder almost every day for 10-20 grams boost. I’m not a pure vegan, so I will eat an egg or have some cheese.

I was just trying to say that as a whole, we (Americans) eat way too much protein, when we should be upping our plant based foods and worry less about protein. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of a regular person that’s protein deficient (not accounting for the poor, hungry, already sick).

That's a nifty calculator. Has me at 44, and my hubby at 65.

Thanks for the post!

3 hours ago, Apple1 said:

Check out the protein requirements calculator by Dr. Davis

http://proteinaholic.com/calculator/

it says I only need 38g daily. That explains why I am doing so well eating 40-50g.

Mine is roughly 42; how I like it, if I were counting. LOL I like how he put notes and disclaimers on the calculator page as well.

1 hour ago, Newme17 said:

I do know that there is 3% of Americans who are actually Protein deficient (there are sources listed in Proteinaholic and nutritionfacts.org). The lady he writes about could be that 3%...also she was raw vegan (I don't know too much about it).

He also said she may not have been eating enough of the right kinds of foods or that she may have had a digestive issue that caused her to not be able to absorb the protein she was eating. I agree if you have absorption issues you would have to eat more to compensate. However, how many of us are going to have those issues? Blood work would certainly pick up on any problems or deficiencies and I think we all do plan on having regular check ups.

I agree that he didn't sight anything scientific and this was a study of N=1.

For the type 2 diabetics reading this thread. You should really read the book. Type 2 diabetes is caused by fat clogging up the cells in your muscles which leads to insulin resistance. Eating a low carb diet solves the symptom of high blood sugar because you are not giving your body any carbs to process. You can be cured of diabetes or at the very least reduce your medication by eliminating fats from your diet.

Ahh.. but now I think we're back to caloric density. Is it FAT that is the problem, or is it the concentrated number of calories the fat contains, which makes us store excess fat.. etc. etc. ??

I think I'll have to take a nice long gander at all the scientific research into what causes diabetes in the first place.

In the meantime, I'm going with the moderate approach. Whole, real food. Small amounts of animal proteins. Keep my calories low so I can continue losing weight. Take vitamins.

The long-lived cultures WERE calorie-restricted, but not compared to the bariatric population. They were eating like 1800-1900 calories a day. Americans eat around 2500. We should keep in mind those populations may have been significantly shorter in stature than us as individuals as well.

The WHO recommends fat in the diet to not drop below 15%. 15% of 2000 calories is 33g of fat. (An egg has 5g, an ounce of whole milk mozzarella has 6g, a Tablespoon of olive oil has 14g, an ounce of nuts has about 15g). Lets make sure we don't drop below 33g of fat, because fat is used by the body for lots of functions (like making hormones), not just energy. And even though we are on a low-energy diet, we still need to make hormones.

33g is the minimum amount, you can safely double it (but I can't recommend consuming more than 66g of fat a day).

Boy, I'm glad this came up, because I hadn't done this research before! I think my fat grams typically run in the mid 50's, but I'll be more sure to pay attention in the future. (I don't plan on decreasing it, unless it's above 65g).

11 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

hh.. but now I think we're back to caloric density. Is it FAT that is the problem, or is it the concentrated number of calories the fat contains, which makes us store excess fat.. etc. etc. ??

I think I'll have to take a nice long gander at all the scientific research into what causes diabetes in the first place.

Here is a link that describes this better than I can:

https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/03/09/how-exactly-does-type-2-diabetes-develop/

Thanks for the link.

" Fatty muscles, in the context of too many calories, leads to a fatty liver, which leads to an even fattier liver."

He describes the build up of fats in the muscles, liver, and pancreas as the cause of diabetes, but it's the number of calories that causes the fat accumulation, rather than fats themselves... at least this is how I read it..

Again, caloric density is at fault, rather than fat its self. Now he does mention saturated fats being a problem, so I'll continue doing research until I feel confident in the answer...

Not everyone that develops diabetes is obese, and not everyone that is obese develops diabetes.. so there has to be a piece that I'm not understanding yet...

Have you read this book by Michael Mosely? I've read some of his other work and in general I'm fascinated with the SIRT gene research and epigenetics.

16 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

Not everyone that develops diabetes is obese, and not everyone that is obese develops diabetes.. so there has to be a piece that I'm not understanding yet...

I think part of the problem is that some normal weight adults are really type 1.5, but are misdiagnosed as type 2. There are a few different types. However, most cases of type 2 are related to insulin resistance which is caused by a build up of fat in the muscle cells which blocks the insulin receptors. If the insulin can't get in the muscles blood sugar rises.

If you eat a very low carb diet you can keep your blood sugar at near normal levels as long as you stick to the diet and exercise. You haven't cured diabetes though because as soon as you eat something with high carb your blood sugar will shoot up yet again.

Once you switch to a low fat WFPB diet and get the fat out of your cells your body can once again process carbs normally as long as your pancreas hasn't stopped producing enough Insulin.

Calorie density would only apply to eating foods high in saturated fats. If I ate a bowl of whole grains with very little fat it would not be the same as eating steak or some chicken.