The Mouse that Roared

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

You don't need no stinking rights:faint:

[bitteroldhag 0]

My, my. Hitler would have been proud.

[BJean 16]

What do we do, Tom? They've gotten away with murder. Personally I think that the past two presidential elections were rigged. How do we stop them? Is this how some of the Germans felt when Hitler grabbed more and more power? Many Germans thought he was the Messiah. I do not understand that. I do not understand why so many people at this site are so strongly in support of this administration and why they support Bush so strongly, in spite of everything they must know in their hearts and minds.

Is it because they hate the whole ideology that the Democratic party stands for? Is it because they honestly think that their taxes are going to go away or drop dramatically under a Republican president? Is it because they are wealthy and greedy they want more wealth? Do they hate poor people that much? Do they think that preserving our environment should not be a priority? Do they really think it is good and fair to tell people what they should believe morally? Why do they support war so much? Why do they think that war is the way to stop terrorism? Would they like to round up all the Arab Muslims and put them in camps?

[mousecrazy 2]

http://rpc.senate.gov/_files/Dec1806HABEASBB.pdf

Just to give some background.

[BJean 16]

Thanks, Mouse. Like I said, do some people want to round up all the Arab Muslims and put them in camps?

Nobody said that Hitler did it alone.

[mousecrazy 2]

No, not all Arab Muslims. Just the ones with plans to harm us. Apparently, there is the feeling here that these guys were just peacefully minding their own business, and then they were snatched up and put in prison, with no reason.

I doubt it.

Have you ever heard the abuse the military guards put up with at Gitmo? Do you know that these peaceful wonderful innocent guys tell them regularly that when our system releases them, they are going to find their families and kill them? They throw urine and feces at them? But, I suppose this is deserved, since our military guys and gals are puppets of Hitler, and should be abused as a way of protest?

I would ask, why are people more concerned with the rights of people who are trying to hurt you, than the safety of the citizens of the US?

[BJean 16]

Please Mouse, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. And don't read between the lines and accuse me of saying something that I don't mean and haven't said.

If you don't want to negotiate or use diplomacy or work at finding out what people are really up to, how are you going to figure out which ones have "plans to harm us"? Where do you want to start in keeping terrorists out of this country and not allowing Arab Muslims to convert us (under duress) all into Muslims? Because that scenario has been brought up a few times.

Hitler is not alive to use people as his puppets. We don't have to worry about Hitler except to learn from him and his reign of terror, how he went about it, and how he managed to get so many followers.

No one I know says any of those detained at Gitmo are innocent. I am certainly not saying that. I am saying that if they are guilty of something, bring them to trial, if we find them guilty, punish them. Yes, there is a huge expense in doing that. But there is a pretty big expense holding them where they are for so long too. The expense isn't all monetary. The point is, what is right and fair?

It is just like the Geneva Convention argument with respect to how we treat prisoners in Iraq. What is right and fair?

How can we expect our men and women, who are taken as prisoners in Iraq, to be treated decently under the rules of the Geneva Convention, if we do not recognize the rules of the Geneva Convention? Yes, Gitmo is different, as you pointed out, but what is right?

Terrorists in the Middle East took a man who works for my husband's company hostage, and later beheaded him. Do you believe that I think the men who did that deserve mercy? Maybe they don't deserve my mercy, but do you think that I endorse our taking some Arab Muslim hostage and beheading him here because that's what they did? Would that in any way make us different than they are? Do we live by Christian principles in this country or not? Or do you pro-war people think that "An eye for an eye.." is the only way to handle heathens and terrorists?

[Sunta 4]

Do we live by Christian principles in this country or not? Or do you pro-war people think that "An eye for an eye.." is the only way to handle heathens and terrorists?

It's always the so-called "Christians" who are the most war-mongering. Why is that? Things that make you go hmmmm....

[BJean 16]

Am I the only one who's noticed that the people who are all for Bush and the war are the same ones who talk about their faith in Christianity a lot?

I guess the fact is, I'm a Christian and I'm not pro-war. But then I definitely do not talk about my faith a lot. A couple of the people who do are completely obnoxious about it. I don't want to be classified as one of them. (NOT referring to you, Mousecrazy!)

[TommyO 5]

We have laws to protect the innocent and we believe that these laws are the foundation of a just society. Rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be hanged. I am willing to live with the consequence of that belief and those are the types freedoms I believe are worth fighting for. However as I say these words I speak as a Canadian and I know that the great majority of my country men agree with me.

I also know that the majority of my neighbors to the south would agree with that premise and that makes me very happy. The words that I have read on this forum have shown me that.

There are some who disagree and to me they are all the same. They talk of evil doers and they agree that they need to be destroyed. They are willing to committ horrible acts and they have committed horrible acts.

They talk of different enemies and they pray to different Gods but they spout very similar rhetoric. Whether they are Muslim or Christian they are willing to fight and kill those they believe to be evil and they are more than happy to take away the rights of those whom they disagree with.

If you are one of them I feel the same sense of dread and revulsion for you whether you live here or somewhere esle. I believe that it will be people with those sorts of beliefs who will eventually cause the end of this world. They will be quick to push the button to save a set of beliefs that are narrow of scope and simplistic at best.

TommyO

[mousecrazy 2]

Sorry, BJean, I didn't intend to put words in your mouth.

I really don't like the Hitler reference thrown around, because I think it is very inflammatory, and probably offensive to those who suffered real loss in those days. It's just not something we need to do to make a decent argument.

I am not "pro-war". That makes it sound like I am running around looking for wars to start, and wars to continue, and wars in the future in case one happens to end. That is really another inflammatory tag.

Simply, we are in a war, and we do not need to fail in this war. The consequences for failure are dreadful and dire and would serve neither the US nor Canada nor Mexico.

I am sorry there is a problem with being Christian and understanding that there are times for war and times for peace. This does not confuse me. I do not have a problem understanding that there are those who need someone to come to their aid, and sometimes that means you have to fight for them.

[BJean 16]

In all fairness, Mouse, I must admit that one reason I use the term, pro-war, is because so many people use the term, pro-abortion. Neither is fair.

When you see your basic civil rights being taken away and you see people who seem so certain that if they don't start shooting, the bad guys are going to get them, you fear that what happened under Hitler is what may be happening in our country. It isn't just the war that I'm upset with. There have been many other things that I think point to such a scenario. For us to sit back and wait to see how this is all going to unfold doesn't feel right. If they have to carry me out and put me back on a reservation, I will still be yelling about having our basic human rights being taken away. I will still be protesting against a president who caused (with his party's dominated Congress) it to happen.

From all that I've read here and all that I feel, I believe you and I are both good people. We do have our differences about this political situation in our country. I understand your wish to be a good and patriotic citizen and support the president since he is our president. There is good reason not to demean the office itself, like has been done in the past.

But for me to not voice my opinion about all of this is to me, like the Germans who allowed Hitler to do the things he did. His inhumanity did not happen overnight, it was slowly worked on and took hold. It is because of the suffering and horror that people went through under Hitler is the very reason we need to keep those memories alive.

[BJean 16]

After reading Tommy's post, like when I read Green, it makes me think that I should think about moving to Canada.

[anonemouse 1]

I am not "pro-war". That makes it sound like I am running around looking for wars to start, and wars to continue, and wars in the future in case one happens to end. That is really another inflammatory tag.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you support the war in Iraq, you are pro-war, even if you are just "pro-war-in-Iraq".

Simply, we are in a war, and we do not need to fail in this war.

No one has given any standards for winning, though! You can not win a war against terrorism. There will always be terrorists. You can not win when you don't know what "winning" is.

[lisah25 3]

No one has given any standards for winning, though! You can not win a war against terrorism. There will always be terrorists. You can not win when you don't know what "winning" is.

Exactly. I hear critisicm of the dems not having a plan. But so far, no one has laid what winning will look like, at least that I've seen. What milestones have to be passed in order to decide it's time to bring our troops home?

The middle east has been in conflict for a very long time. I don't see how we can change that by being in Iraq. In fact, I believe that most terrorists don't hate us for our freedoms and want us dead because of our lifestyle. I've talked to some very non-radical muslims who feel sorry for us. They think we are too decadent and shallow.

I do think they want us out of the middle east though. And some are willing to kill us for what they see as interference.