BJean

Maybe she is away for the weekend. Who knows. The questions that you asked gadget, have been answered by a number of people over the very long course of debate on this subject. Each and every time someone does take the time to answer those questions, and the answers are not ones that you can fully appreciate, they are attacked and there is post after post with links of everything from bloody photos to raging theories on how slavery is just the same as abortion. Why should anyone at this point wish to get into that with you?

If the media reported something that did not actually happen, then they should be more careful. However I watched that portion of the rally and what I heard someone yell was, kill him. I have also seen footage of other rallies where people shouted scary things. The Palin rallies in particular have been inciting that kind of anger from people. She knows that her smarmy delivery and sarcasm and exaggeration of the truth and accusatory comments, all while she is grinning, are encouraging bad behavior on the part of her supporters. Has she taken any responsbility for it? No. Has John McCain? No. In interviews with a couple of different reporters, they fiercely deny that they are lying or stretching the truth or inciting to riot. Palin has continued that same delivery and the same smarmy statements, over and over even today. She seems to delight in it, even appearing to stifle an outright giggle when she gets a really negative reaction from the crowd. It really makes it clear what kind of person she is. It makes it clear what kind of core this woman has in the center of her being. And if someone did take a shot at someone running in this race, I have a feeling she would secretly embrace it as an accomplishment of her own. I don't think she or McCain or their handlers care one whit about pulling this country together after this election. To them, this is war and the only plan is to win at any cost. Damn the people, damn the country and hurl anything at the enemy that just might cause one voter to cast a vote for them. What do you suggest gadget, to unite this country after the election if Senator Obama and Senator Biden are elected? What would you do to convince people that we need to work together even though we may be disappointed that our man/woman didn't win? Maybe that would be a good thread starter. How can we united everyone to work for the good of the country after the election is over - no matter which side wins!

As for late term abortions, my opinion is that it is a matter between a woman and her medical practioner. I would never be able to make a medical decision like that for another person. And you shouldn't be making them for others either. If you wish to be influencial in helping another woman make a decision like that, it is your business. You don't seem to have any trouble telling others what is right and what is wrong with the way medicine is practiced today. And that is your perrogative - it is well within your rights to make your opinions known. But I object to your desire to pass a law that makes it illegal for women to make their own decisions when it comes to late term abortions or any other decision that involves a woman's reproductive organs.

Seriously gadget? Seriously? You equate a man's penis in a vagina and a person's finger in a woman's mouth to be in any way similar to a fertilized egg in a woman's womb? For heaven's sakes. No wonder there's such a huge disconnect between those of us who support women's rights and your wish to take them away. For you, it is a very simple thing. The complexity of the issue as well as the basic biology of the issue seems to be lost on you. I am sincerely amazed and mystified.

Ok gadget. I apologize for assuming that your questions were questions you were using to bait Losingjusme so that you could counter whatever her answers were with the same kind of propaganda that you have used for months, (or is it years?), on the other thread. They somehow just sounded so very familiar. I am sorry that I didn't recognize that you were genuinely in the dark about why a person would feel the way Losingjusme does about the topic of a woman's right to choose. I also apologize to Losingjusme for possibly interrupting the flow of her message. Btw gadget, has anyone told you how much your photo and your words remind them of Sarah Palin? You really do remind me of her. And she's a former beauty queen! Did you ever participate in pagents?

And turns out you all who were arguing that Sarah Palin is no expert on autism were absolutely right. Wonder who fed her the line decrying research using fruit flies?

Why hasn't anyone brought up the subject of who McCain pals around with? His good buddy G. Gordon Liddy was one of the Watergate burglers! Liddy has been guilty of all kinds of subversive activities and his right wing extremism is certainly a matter of record. He was not just accused of the Watergate burglery, he was convicted of the Watergate burglery. He's donated to McCain's campaign, and they are certainly known to be closer associates than Bill Ayers and Senator Obama. As to the question this thread posed, I will go out on a limb and say that if someone assassinates Senator Obama, Americans will tear that terrorist from limb to limb. And the digging will go very deep into organizations that scream succsessionst, anti-government diatribe - like Todd Palin's organization does. And Sarah Palin endorses that organization by her on the record statement that she agrees with them. The reason this possible assassination attempt question came up and is relevant, is because there are so many right wing fanatics in this country who believe that they don't have to pay taxes and they should be able to amass an arsenal of firearms, and who think they're right when they take the law into their own hands (for the good of their cause.) Like committing assassinations and burglery of the opposition party's headquarters. I will be depending on Senator Obama's ability to surround himself with more than just the Secret Service. I hope he will surround himself with the biggest, baddest body guards that he can find. And I hope that he won't take chances and expose himself to the manical terrorists who call themselves partiots. We need Senator Obama. We need someone with his intellligence and calmness and core values to bring this country together. We need someone who, unlike the people in the McCain campaign, will decry ignorant personal asssults and hatred of the government. We need to get on with the business of rebuilding America and seeking peace for the world. We need to be role models for the rest of the world, not the monsters some countries believe we have become.

This has been a great thread for allowing people to voice their opinions without having someone jump in and be confrontational and accusatory and launch into a long lecture about how women are committing murder if they find themselves in the horrible position of needing an abortion. That is until the post before mine. It sounds like the same kind of baiting that happened on the really, really long other thread on this topic. Gadget, if anyone knows the ins and outs of all the arguments and reasoning, both pro and con, it's you.

We've been down that road many times before. A fertilized egg is definitely a part of a woman's reproductive organs. You can't have your way about that. It is not a seperate entity. It will not survive outside the womb, at least until people have gone so far as to duplicate a womb. A fertilized egg depends solely on its' host - a woman's reproductive organs - to survive. If someone invents a contraption that will replace a woman's womb, God forbid, then the argument could change.

If you believe that it is a better world when women have the right to choose and that the government should never have the right to control women's reproductive organs, you should get out and vote for those people who share your beliefs. You should be able to tell by this thread that there are many people who wish to control women's reproductive organs and that they will pretty much stop at nothing to overturn Roe v. Wade and make every women's right to control her own reproductive organs in fact, illegal. We really must let them know, by our votes, that we will not stand for it. That is the crux of this argument, the blood, guts, and extremely obnoxious arguments, notwithstanding.

So who's gonna google and get us the info to back up Jack's claim that Senator Obama wants the draft? And Jack, I know you don't ever claim to be a conservative Republican, but do you know how much money this ultra-conservative Republican administration has given - American taxpayer dollars - to the "government" in Iraq? I believe I heard that they are sitting on something like $70B of American taxpayer dollars. And we know what the actual war is costing us - not only in monetary terms, which is astronomical - but also in American lives. Are you trying to tell me that employing someone to make a box to ship back the bodies in, somehow justifies the money we're spending on this war? I do know that the hardware that we're paying for in this war certainly does provide jobs for not only the military, but also for American workers here at home. It was the same in Vietnam. But when people finally realized what a horrible price we were paying for the war in Vietnam, they got us the hell out. Once McCain learned how anti Iraq war that mainstream America is, he stopped saying he thought we might be there for many more years and now he's saying he'll bring our troops home. He's been as stubborn on the war as George W. Bush has. Who knows, maybe General Powell's remarks helped him out a little on this. And about Acorn, I'd like to know exactly where those of you who think that Acorn is a horrible organization got your information? You obviously heard all of the accusations and negative-speak about it, but have you ever once stopped to find out the truth of what their goals are? Do you have something against getting as many qualified Americans registered to vote as there are qualified Americans?

I'm curious Jack. Did the pickup trucks actually have dangerous gas tanks or was it proven that they were not dangerous?

First, are you denying that the Republicans disenfranchised Democratic voters? Do you deny that in the some of the swing states, they are trying to do it again? And probably in some cases, succeeding. Second, I have checked into Acorn. I'm wondering if you've just listened to what the Republicans have accused them of or if you really know what they're about? Acorn cannot allow anyone to vote or keep anyone from voting. They are only in the business of taking registration applications. They cannot even log registrations onto the election board books. Only the election boards are able to do that. The election boards are the ones who determine whether a candidate is eligible to vote. Certainly not Acorn! If Acorn found that their workers turned in a registration that was questionable, they brought it to the attention of the election boards. They are not allowed to legally throw out a registration that has been taken - whether it is a good one or a bad one. They would not intentionally allow an unqualified person to be registered. An unqualified person cannnot vote, so what would be the point of that? Besides, this finger pointing at Acorn is a diversionary tactic that the Republicans have used to cause people to ignore what they're doing that really does subvert legal voting in America. They are responsible for actually throwing out Americans' votes! And not too surprisingly, they turn out to be Democratic votes. It isn't as simple and obvious as Republicans would have you believe. And this is not something that I'm making up because I am putting out spin or diversionary accusations. I just read more and listen to more than one viewpoint and one-sided research panels. Anyone who does knows that I am right about this. I have no doubt whatsoever that John McCain can win the election. With or without illegal maneuverings. But I do know that the RNC doesn't want to take a chance. And if it were the Democratic party that was pulling this stuff, I would want it to stop! And I would want the perps prosecuted. What we need in this country is an honest election - first and foremost. I would much rather a Republican won if it in some way could ensure an honest election. Unfortunately we know for sure that the Republicans have subverted elections in the past and it looks like they are trying to do it again. None of us should want an illegal election in this country. We are suppose to be a model of democracy. We're supposedly fighting for that in Iraq and Afghanistan. How can we live with knowing Americans have had their votes thrown out by the opposition party?

We all expect it to be close. It is interesting to note that the Republican President and Congress made sure that elections are not handled in a very non-partisan way. The opportunity for this race to wind up like the past two is very high. Not because the Democrats didn't get the majority popular vote, but because the Republicans worked their "magic" to ensure they won the electoral vote. If you aren't aware of how they pull off disenfranchising honest voters, you should find out about it. Chills will run up and down your spine - and if you're a Democrat, you will certainly not miss the opportunity to vote this year.

You use sarcasm and innuendo like your Republican candidates. We all know I wasn't talking about the baby... I was talking about your sweet disposition. :sad_smile:

gadget on the one hand you do something wonderful and on the other, you're incredibly sarcastic and spiteful. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Steve I appreciate your observations on this. You certainly make a lot of sense. I am reminded of the involuntary sterilization of black girls in the south many years ago.

I forgot to tell you that I have missed you, TommyO!

The rights that you're talking about include your right to believe what you believe and for me to believe what I believe. Your rights should not trump mine on this issue. It is your belief that once a sperm has penetrated an egg, that it is a process that should come with legally written insurance that it will always be permitted to develop into a fully viable human being. I do not believe that or agree with you. I believe that it is a very, very complicated biological process and that nature intervenes and that human beings intervene to prevent development of that tissue into a fully viable human being and that the reasons that those interventions occur are not cut and dried or black and white. There are millions of reasons why those interventions occur. Some may not be good reasons. Some may be live-saving reasons. Some may be a matter of a very delicate balance of biology and genetics. The problem with your cut and dried, black and white, approach to this question of women's rights, is that you believe you have a right to control those biological functions in all women based upon your beliefs. That's where your beliefs and mine conflict and why your beliefs abridge mine if you prevent me from having my own beliefs and ability to have my beliefs be as legal as yours are. You keep throwing out the fact that you believe that a fertilized egg is a life and that every life has the right to exist. I believe that a fertilized egg is comprised of living tissue, but it is not totally within God's will or within the government's promise that each and every fertilized egg is guaranteed the same rights as a fully developed person. It just doesn't work that way and just because you believe it is that way, doesn't mean that everyone else believes it or should live by your beliefs above all others.

I do not believe for one minute that Rev. Wright's usual sermons contained those hurt-filled, angry sound bytes. If they did, you can be sure that the successful people in Chicago, like Senator Obama would not have sat through them very often. That would have been politically stupid. The one thing that we know for sure is that Obama is not stupid. I say to the Republicans, bring it on. Say anything you wish about the Rev. Wright/Obama relationship. The polls tell us that most Americans know that Obama and the other people in Chicago that attended that church are not Rev. Wright and he is not them. He speaks only for himself. They speak for themselves.

You're probably right. This campaign has gone on so long and it seems like just about every possible avenue has been explored. But I tend to believe what one of the candidates said about the possibility of something horrendous being pulled out of the hat at the last minute. It is in character for the party that has become the underdog to stop at nothing. I will probably never forgive the men who brought us the John Kerry Swift Boat campaign that ran ads and wrote letters filled with lies. A man who was a true patriot, a man who served our country in battle, a man who chose to be open and straightforward during his campaign about his desire to make big changes, was the man who was charged with being the liar. He did not deserve that kind of nasty, dishonest, smear tactic. No one does. And Americans should not put up with it. We need to go to the polls and let our votes be our voices. I guess that's why we keep trying to point out the reasons why we are for or against someone. We want to ensure that others understand the information that we think have been lies and a misinterpretation of the facts before, as in John Kerry's case, it is too late.

Sorry Susan. I didn't see yours before I posted mine. Thanks for keeping it open. I usually don't address my posts to anyone unless they address me specifically, but did get off track yesterday. I apologize.

I'm glad that some people who disagree with me just bypass my posts and do not read them. Otherwise, we might get into some kind of healthy debate. Or is healthy debate completely out of the question on such a passionate subject I must add that just because some people have decided that the Supreme Court has incorrectly interpreted the Constitution, doesn't mean that they are correct in their judgement of the Surpeme Court. The most important thing about the Surpeme Court is that they are appointed and confirmed by the president and congress. We elect both the president and congress and we expect them to be non-partisan when it comes to interpreting the Constitution. However, people are people, with all the human frailties that brings.

Wait, wait wait! Don't close it yet. The election isn't over yet and this is an important discussion. Jack, I think your stats are something that are helpful. And I have a question for you: Which party has spent the most in the past several presidential elections? Also, do you want to cite where generally the campaign contributions have come from on both sides and generally in what amounts? Sorry if I sounded "too edgy" yesterday. Seriously. I stayed online way too long and when I do that, it usually winds up getting harsh on both sides. But just because someone provokes another, doesn't mean that the whole debate, or discussion, is worthless and should be thrown out. I am curious too about this negative campaign issue. Of course there are negative sides to every issue. Especially when both sides push the limits of how the other plan is to be interpreted. What I'd like to know, and what the news commentators do not seem to be making an issue of when they're counting up the numbers of negative ads is: What constitutes a negative ad? Is a rebuttal a negative ad? Is an explanation of the other side's plan, a negative ad? Is a personal insult a negative ad? Is an untrue accusation that is repeated over and over, to be considered negative one time or all the numbers of times it is run? If someone intentionally incites negative and heated responses from the crowd at a rally, is that considered negative or just politics as usual? Now I'm not being testy or on the edge with these questions. I am sincerely wondering what constitutes negativism in this campaign. I keep hearing questions about who's running the most negative campaign in the media lately. I just don't know how they define the term "negative".

You're right clusk. He definitely was considered a top-notch dignitary and consultant in the Republican party. And he is still just as important as they thought he was. I expect nothing better from Rush Limbaugh. If all the racist remarks intended to incite negative actions from stupid folks doesn't stop, they should be held accountable when it happens.