BJean

patty you are wrong to presume that a woman who chooses abortion is only concerned with herself. People are smart enough to know when it is a very bad thing to bring a child into the world. If a woman chooses to have an abortion it certainly doesn't doesn't mean that she doesn't care about the welfare of babies or about her potential baby in particular! Bringing a child into the world because you've decided that it is God's will, no matter what the circumstances for the woman or the child, is what I think is wrong. Churches that preach that abortion is wrong in all cases are simply doing it to preserve their religion and that is extremely selfish and convoluted. They say it is because they care about the children. But that is just not always the case. It is always the case however, that they are working to ensure that more people are brought into the flock they've created. The flock that brings them money and keeps the Vatican beautiful, for instance. If you will listen to your President, you might learn a thing or two about this topic and about what is right, fair and good. I mean really listen without placing your interpretation on what he says. Or is that simply impossible for people with blind faith?

plain, why do I sense that you just like giving me a hard time? If prostitution were legal, it would be easier to monitor who is doing what to whom in that profession. As it is now, they pretty much have to be caught in the act in order for the law to intervene. All the resources that are devoted to busting the prostitutes, the johns and the pimps could be reduced (I would imagine) and monitoring the profession could be done in an orderly fashion. Instead of prostitution being a huge drain on the system, they'd pay taxes which would defray the cost of keeping it all as clean as possible. And keeping kids out of the business would be much easier. Kat makes a lot of sense. I can remember once when my DH told me that sometimes he'd enjoy just getting his "needs" met without the intimacy and emotional feelings that are attached to a love match. (Not that I hit him with a barrage of psychological baggage when we have sex, or anything. :-) But being in love and having sex is quite different from having sex with someone who is a professional and it's all about the mechanics. Men would like to find that kind of sex with random partners who aren't prostitutes but they don't want to jeopardize their marriages. Many women feel that way too, but it's even harder for them to have a sexual encounter without an emotional attachment of some sort because women are conditioned to feel like and be treated like a whore if they don't know their partner well. :-) Wasa you sound extremely cynical about relationships. We discussed those types of comments earlier. Having a man purchase a boat or a kitchen or a new car isn't usually just about a sexual exchange in most marriages. Marriages and intimate relationships are more complicated than that. There's always a give and take between partners. If one of the partners reduces the relationship to nothing more than a barter of sex for goods, it isn't much of a marriage or even a relationship! I am certainly not saying it doesn't happen. I've had friends who married very wealthy men who were much older than they were and it was not uncommon for them to say that they had to go give their spouses a blow job so the men would agree to something they wanted. Even so, it is not the same as prostitution. But it is much closer to it than the average couple who married for love, not money. Most couples marry for a long list of reasons. Sex and money are two of them, but they are certainly not the only reasons. And it is disgusting to me to think that all married women think of their spouses as nothing more than johns.

Jessizzle, you sizzle. Consenting adults is what we're talking about. And that's one reason why it should be legal, so that we can make sure that consenting adults are the people involved in that business and not young girls and boys that are being taken advantage of.

Kat, I think you're the best! Thanks for what you said. I hoped someone would understand what I was trying to discuss. Patty has said that all one must do to go to heaven is to admit that one is a sinner. She said that if we admit we are sinners, we admit that Jesus died for us, and that God figures that we now have demonstrated enough faith to be accepted into heaven. I have always had a problem with that verbiage. When I was considering joining the Southern Baptist church in our little community, the preacher kept saying all you have to do is to accept Jesus and then you will be saved. I kept asking questions to get some clarification. It just didn't make any sense to me. And nothing that has been said here has made it clearer. It isn't that I have a problem believing in God or believing that Jesus died for my sins. It's that I have a problem with people who say that all you have to do is admit that you're a sinner and accept Jesus and you have a passport to heaven. Like the rapist/murderer that Kat speaks of, for instance. He can say (even in his heart) that he is a sinner and that he accepts Jesus and he can even go to church and become a deacon and pay for a pew on the front row. But as soon as he gets out of prison, I guarantee he will be plotting another murder and rape of another child. He is screwed up in the head and nothing God or Jesus can promise him will make him well. A frontal lobotomy might or shock therapy or castration might, but pedophiles aren't people who are able to be rehabilitated. As Christians we are expected to love him in spite of his sins. I find that ludicrous. I totally understand the reason that the little girl's family should forgive the man. That kind of "forgiveness" is not to excuse the man. It's so that they can let go of the hate that has their stomachs tied in knots and the blinding rage that they live with every day. It is not an easy thing to "forgive" a man like that. But it is a valuable tool that they can use keep from allowing that man to continue doing damage that family.

Personally I would never believe that I could stop and get a drink from a glimmering hot spot on a highway in the summer. And I can grasp the concept that the sky visually seems blue to us because of many natural wonders of the earth. And I can imagine infinity. But what we're really dealing with as people is our lifetime here on earth is how we conduct ourselves in our lifetime and where we go from here. The concept of heaven: that's a good thing to try to imagine and I'm sure most of us think about that from time to time. But back to the here and now, regarding churches, you believe that we if we do choose to join others in worship, we must be very careful. I honestly can't tell by what you wrote, exactly how we are expected to join others in worship without offending God unless we join your particular Assembly of God Church. And to clarify just a little more, you believe that all one must do to be sure that one will go to heaven upon death, is to have faith in God because if we believe in God we will "have faith in Jesus" and that assures us a spot in heaven? You're saying that we don't have to be baptised or go to church to get into heaven, right? And since we are all known by Jesus and God to be sinners, and he doesn't expect us to go through life without sinning, we don't have to worry that being a bad person or a sinner will keep us from getting into heaven just as long as we have faith in God?

Faith isn't as simple as you would have us believe, patty. Faith is not just the concept of believing in God because God said that we should believe in him. That would be an easy and uncomplicated task. But the fact is that it is much more complicated. One also has to believe and have faith that God actually said what is printed in the Bible. Which requires a lot of believing, because we know that God did not physically write the Bible wherein he was quoted as having said that we must have faith in Him. We know that only people here on earth were physically capable of writing the Bible. So what we're actually expected to have faith in, is other people. And for many of us, that is very difficult. To explain a little further, we know that the Bible we have always had access to contains the writings of people who say they were spoken to by God, i.e., it was written by people who claim God spoke to them and that they are quoting him directly. And our current day Bible is part and parcel the edited writings of those original writings. That book of parables and teachings, the book that has become our Bible, the one book that we are asked to put our whole faith in is the same book that was not physically written by God, but it was written by people and has been interpreted and edited by people over the ages - people just like you perhaps.

So patty, you claim that all you have to do to get into heaven is to "have faith" in God? If so, what words would you use to define "having faith"? What does "having faith" consist of exactly? Also, you say that the greatest enemy to man is organized religion. You said, "When I said those who mistreated your ancestors were not 'true' christians, and that they were in name only, I meant that they were just like all other religious people (religions) out there." And yet you said that you are involved in organized religion. How exactly did you choose which religion to be involved with? How does one determine how to pass your test for choosing a church to go to? Since you seem to have peculiar knowledge about all religions, it would behoove us to check with you before we affiliate ourselves with an organized religion. Is that correct?

Having native American genes, I am thoroughly disgusted and offended by patty's remarks about my relatives having been included in any way. They were slaughtered and their land was taken from them and they were segregated and forced onto reservations where there was little opportunity for them to survive in any decent fashion. Furthermore, the people who came to America were persecuted for wanting to practice a different religion. This is proof positive that separation of church and state is necessary. That is the foundation of our country. They didn't come here hoping to practice a religion that excluded others. They wanted a country that promised freedom from religious persecution. That's what our country was founded on. That and war. And religion has been the basis of many wars. Oppression by people who claim to worship and believe in whatever god they worship, goes on to this very day. People have to understand that belief and religion should not be required by one group over another. The only way we can be assured of that is if our government has no power over people's religious beliefs. Demanding that "In God We Trust" be on our money and "...under God" be in our Pledge of Alliegence, and that we allow manger scenes to be displayed on the lawns in front of our government buildings is oppressive and constitutes using taxpayers money to endorse Christianity, thereby forcing a particular religious belief on every taxpayer in this country. The argument that Christians are in the majority in this country is lame. That has nothing to do with it. The way the government is run and our laws are constructed and enforced should be based on our Constitution - not on the Bible, the Koran or any other religious document. At least not if we are to be a free people.

You should write a letter to Oprah suggesting the blow up replica. Maybe she'd get pe'oed and have you on her show.

Carrie I do think that people can be pounded over the head with a Bible and be convinced to adopt certain beliefs. That's the foundation of most organized religions. That's how they continue over the years and how they grow. The smarter ones will always question what they have been told though. And that is healthy. That is how people go about forming their own beliefs, instead of just adopting the preachers or their parents or a friend's or their spouses. You obviously went through that healthy process. Didn't you find it interesting when they revealed that even Mother Teresa had doubts?

Some 30 years ago my evangalist BIL had a favorite and popular topic for his sermons. It was his promise that we were close to the second coming of Christ. He had lots of education, books, pamphlets, Biblical readings and such to back up his theories. He was certain at that time that it wouldn't be 10 more years before heathens would be left behind to suffer while Christians would rise up to the heavens. He loved the quote (threat) about wives and husbands being separated because one was a baptised born again Christian and one was not. This Christian nation was raised on fear. It is one of the single most important reasons that preachers and religious zealots make my stomach turn in spite of the Lap Band. They take their fear mongering and threat of hell to the bank every Monday morning. People are lambs, like it says in the Bible. I find it very interesting that the question about legalizing prostitution has turned into such a hot discussion about religion. Once again, it's most people on one side and Ron, er Pattygreen, on the other. I wonder if this thread will go on for as many pages as the earlier one of a similar nature. Calmer heads have definitely been involved this time and I believe it has been a more effective discussion.

Seems to me you can count the implant-less actresses in Hollywood with two hands. I admit that I did not see the show in question nor did I hear Oprah's comments. But I have heard her make inappropriate comments on other shows. With audible intakes of air throughout the audience. Hence the fact that I wasn't surprised. Kate Winslet is very beautiful. Great actress. And very gracious in interviews. She also digs Leonardo Di Caprio and I agree with her. Jachut you make some really strong points about what we've come to accept as beauty! The dazzling white teeth can really blind you sometimes. And in addition to the enhanced boobs in the Dallas area, the number of women who have had face lifts is amazing. Some are done quite well and if you didn't know them pre-surgery, you might not guess that they've had it. But too many of them are so bad you could consider them grotesque. My MIL's friend had one, which turned out fairly well, then 10 years later had a second one. The same doctor (10 years older) did some irreparable nerve damage and now she looks like she's had a stroke. Yeesh! What price vanity! I didn't know that Oprah had spoken so negatively of surgical procedures for obesity. I thought she just said it isn't something she would do. So... my viewpoint was coming from a place that of relative ignorance regarding Oprah. Sorry peeps. I watched her show for years, but no wonder I lost interest.

I don't find it weird at all that Oprah commented on the real-ness of Kate's boobs. Oprah sees Hollywoodland up close and personal everyday. It's tiring to see all the phoniness that is cranked out of Hollywood and onto the big screen and thrown into our faces everyday. If it weren't for that, implants would never be the topic of conversation like they are nearly everywhere these days. Dallas is chock-a-block full of artificially enhanced breasts. It is relatively rare to see a young woman without them if she is pretty, slim and either has her own wealth or has some guy or parent supplying the cash for the surgery. It's everyone's right to dislike or like Oprah and to voice opinions. She puts herself out there everyday and in a very open format. That being said, I agree with Green and I do think that she is very good at what she does. Let's face it, she's one of the most powerful women in the United States - in face she's darned influencial all over the world. I believe that she has evolved from being a small town girl into a highly glamorized powerhouse media producer. And she's now like many of you have said, really, really full of herself. I occasionally try to watch her, but I find most of her shows really boring and a waste of time. But I've really enjoyed some of her shows on health and nutrition. I don't criticize her for choosing not to have WLS when in fact, there's probably been a lot of pressure on her to have surgery. I also don't expect her to criticize me for having it either. As for the two books where she was fooled by the authors, you're giving her way too much credit. She has a powerful and effective staff lining up her shows (and her books) but I doubt very seriously if they have the ability to verify facts stated in random books. It is encumbent on the publishers to do that. Just like newspapers must verify that their reporters stories are true. She was sucked in, just like the publishers and many, many readers. It wasn't cool, but it also isn't all that surprising. As for the Texans who sued her because she dissed beef, remember folks, she won.

Plain, you're pretty funny, dude. Is a Fluoride Dope the same as a Fluoride Junkie?

Green I love reading your posts. It beings some intellect to the table as well as some civility. Beth, I have to agree with you about Donna's comments not seeming rude and certainly not rude like Ron's, er I mean pattygreen's.

EXCELLENT POST GREEN! Very well stated and quite obviously true.

Funny Green! And Plain, why am I not surprised that you seem to have personal knowledge about cash muting the squeeking springs! You animal!

Good post Kat - as usual!

So abortion rears its' ugly head even here? Interesting. Some women who become pregnant without their consent might equate their situation to the one where an intruder entered your home and threatened your existence.

plain: I've been out of the loop for a few days. Your comment that the pimps would be the ones who are in charge of prostitution after it becomes legal is pretty silly. Unless of course you consider that the people who run things in Nevada are just pimps and the people who run things in Amsterdam are pimps just waiting to get hold of a john and rob him while in the meantime he's thinking of fun ways to beat up and cheat his prostitute. I can't get over how some of you equate a prostitute to a waitress or a secretary. And some of you even compare a prostitute to a wife. What planet are you living on - what hole do you live in? What a skewed sense of morality. Our entire capitalist society is based on people providing goods and services for money. Are you trying to say that in this country if you provide a service for money, you're nothing more than prostitute? I'm going to pass that little bit of wisdom along to my lawn mowing guy. Btw, the general consensus is that rape is not so much about sex as it is about power.

Steve isn't prostitution already a problem for all of us in this country? We pay many tax dollars to enforce the laws. As one person said, there are gang related areas of towns where prostitution is commonplace. (In Sterling, Virginia??? Man, it used to be a quiet little burg when I lived near there.) Our only chance to actually have some control over it is to make it legal and regulate it. It sure isn't going away just because some of us find it immoral and unacceptible. I do take issue with those who equate marriage with prostitution. Although I do think some of you made those comments tongue in cheek. But marriage is a give and take relationship with both parties giving and taking. And sex isn't a job for a wife, it is a pleasure and something she desires as much as her spouse does. Besides marriage involves every aspect of life including things such as living arrangements, children, spiritual beliefs, health and nurturing and the list goes on. How could anyone argue that marriage is only about sex? Even a sexual encounter with ones' boss or co-worker is different than prostitution in so many ways. And btw, sex at the workplace doesn't always mean that there is harrassment involved or favors expected. With prostitution the sexual encounter in exchange for a fixed amount of money is the extent of the relationship.

well I hope his beer was lukewarm too... leaving a person to starve like that. You know I'm kidding. Do you have PF Chang restaurants up there? They are a chain, but if you want to you can order your own concoctions (although they don't advertise that). I find their Chinese food to be really quite good. Regular Chinese or any far eastern food is not the most popular in this part of Texas, so the pickins are slim. Except that we do have some very decent sushi places. Go figure.

For some reason I just got green's message. I hope you aren't still waiting!

The Cartman philosophy of life. I think I must have invented it. And yeah I want my cheesy poofs. How's green feelin? And don't say with her hands.

Beth I CAN understand explanations. I just haven't heard one that justifies your opposition to something that is absolutely no threat to you. You said that there has been a vote and that's all that really matters. You are quite wrong about that. What matters is what is the right thing to do, not necessarily what is popular at the moment. Disenfranchising a segment of society because you don't believe they deserve the same rights that you enjoy is wrong and that is what matters! Remember when people thought that women shouldn't be allowed to vote? Back then men thought they were right and they thought that was all that mattered.