BJean

laurigee: I saw the man interviewed and he said that the black flag represented a black day in America because his candidates McCain/Palin weren't elected. If you want to know what I really think though is that it probably did. He was just too embarrassed to admit it front of the TV camera.

I totally understand that some of you all believe that marriage should be for a man and a woman exclusively. However I can't understand why it matters so much to you whether it is legal for same sexes to marry. It is obviously incredibly important to them. But why is it so important to you to bar them from being legally married? I had this discussion with my nephew. He has some good friends who are gay and living together. He loves them and cares about them, but doesn't believe that they should be able to be legally married even though they've been together a very long time. I asked him why he cared. I asked him how his gay friends marrying could affect him in any way. He didn't really answer that, just reiterated that marriage is for a man and a woman and no one else. I'm sorry I just don't understand all the opposition to it.

RSG well done!!! I'm sure it fell on deaf (or angry) ears, but I am sure that they welcome your right to say it. Nancy, your daughter is lucky to have such a supportive mom. My daughter had a girlfriend in high school whose brother, a year younger, was gay. His parents were Evangelical Christians and very active in their church. When their son went to them and asked them how God could make him be a gay person when their minister said it was wrong in God's eyes, they were shocked. They had no idea that he considered himself a homosexual. They took him for counseling with their minister. They got him professional counseling with a psychiatrist who gave him antidepressants. The parents insisted that he chose to be gay and that with a lot of prayer and guidance, he could live a "normal" heterosexual life. It was a year of pure hell for poor Chris. Chris was gay. Period. He did not choose it to test his parents. He did not choose it because he just wanted an alternative lifestyle. No drugs or instruction from anyone could make him un-gay. When he explained that to his parents, they threw him out of the house - at age 16. They told him that as far as they were concerned, they had no son. Chris lived on the streets for a couple of years. His sister and my daughter helped him as much as they could, secretly because they knew the parents would throw their daughter out and ban my daughter from their house if they knew they had given any help to Chris. He wound up on drugs. He had no self-esteem. In fact, he hated himself for what he was. He contracted aids. He is getting governmental assistance in a program that my sister runs. Otherwise I doubt that he would be alive today. Not that living is something he wants to do very much. I am pretty sure that his parents and that minister are going to hell for what they did to Chris.

This goes to the very heart of the reason behind separation of church and state.

Watcher: I am very sad to say that there is a nutball here in Texas that was flying a black flag above an upside down American flag. He said that he is protesting the election results. The most disturbing part of the story is that he is a school teacher. He claimed that it had nothing to do with racial bias. He said that it is a black time in history because Americans are not sticking to the values he thinks are important. I decided a while back that people are just hardwired differently - some of them are just a few synapses short of bright. You'd think that someone well-educated enough to be a teacher would know right from wrong. I think I need to head for a nice quiet mountain retreat. Preferably with a little bubbling brook nearby.

I guess the question has been answered hasn't it watcher? We are definitely ready for a black president! And as for clusk's remark about feeling like we're getting rid of an evil dictator, I must say I think we are!

I get it pattyg. Your brand of Christianity is the only right one. I've listened to people like you before. I have no desire to clarify anything I've written so that you can understand it. Because I know that you are not interested in anything that I have to say. You just like to hear yourself spout your right wing extremist rehtoric. You like to argue about it so that you can feel superior - holier than thou, in fact. Besides, you said you're finished here. No more posts. Buh-bye. As for TommyO - dang guy, I'm sure gonna miss you. I totally agree with LBT being a very worthwhile tool during the first year or so before and after being banded. Then it becomes pretty repetitive and you get tired of answering, What is a PB? I've told myself to stop participating at Rs & Rs because there are so many nutballs who write nutty, negative things. But what keeps me coming back are the really bright, sweet people and I always learn stuff from them. Congratulations big time on your fantastic success!!! You have earned your graduation onto facebook or Youtube or wherever you can have a fun time. Like I said, I'll miss you dude. You're cool.

Just thought I'd ask. My folks were friends with some Oklahoma Goads for many years.

I think it is unanimous!!! Steve Goad, you the man! Btw, Mr. Goad, are you by any chance from Oklahoma?

Yeah, what they said. And as for marriage being between a man and woman because the Bible said so, just doesn't cut it. There are Christian churches that support gay marriage. Their religions are based on the Bible. They've just chosen to embrace the passages that call for peace, love and tolerance instead of exclusion, intolerance and hate. Don't get me started on the reasons that when some churches were formed, they wanted their members to have as many children as possible. It's right up there with rules for donating a percentage of one's income through tithe. (Which by definition is a tax of a tenth to support the church and its' clergy.) I am not criticizing churches, just making some observations. There are always reasons behind churches supporting certain positions in society and they don't all revolve around what the Bible says. Sometimes they have to do with ensuring that the church itself survives. And I believe it is healthy to not only question the Bible itself, but also the rules of the church one attends. If we don't, we are just following blindly like sheep.

Well said, Green. I for one thought you were thanking them for enlightening you on big business and off-shore activities with your tongue firmly implanted in your cheek. Don't you love it when you learn something new here?! I sure do

There is a passage in the Bible that says that you should not speak of your God to others if they do not want to hear it, and when you do speak of your God, you should do it softly and with humility. I'm plagarizing, of course.

Susan pattygreen started by attacking personally someone who was cool enough to share her story with us. Then it escalated from there - escalated mostly by pattygreen. I believe that she has insinuated in the past that I am not a Christian and that because I disagree with her beliefs on abortion rights, I am a Godless person. That's about as personal as it gets. I think that it would be a shame to shut this thread down since so many people have been given an opportunity to voice their opinions and tell their stories here. But I do believe that having someone so extremist rail against anyone who doesn't share her views is definitely not conducive to an open forum. I personally find all the talk of murder and killing to be particularly hateful So I support you 100%. Do whatever you have to do. It definitely has gotten out of whack on these past couple of pages. Our founding fathers by the way, came here because they were discriminated against due to their religious beliefs. That's exactly what pattygreen is doing to many of us here. I believe that the founding fathers wanted to establish a country where NO person was discriminated against because of his or her religious beliefs. Authors message: Some Christians have their own brand of Christianity. It is driven by a singular, narrow-minded interpretation of the Bible. It is driven by all the propaganda that surrounds their brand. To me it is a very hateful view of all things spiritual and religious. And although they call abortion murder and anyone who would have an abortion a killer, I have found most of them to be in favor of capital punishment. As I said, it's a hateful, hell fire and brimstone interpretation of the Bible. Guilt drives it. And it is terribly offensive.

Our taxes take care of military pay and health care for their families. I hope that Obama has no plans to put businesses out of business by some outrageous tax plan. I do not believe that he is that dumb. In fact, I do not believe he is dumb at all. He said that he wants to incentivize corporations and I think that's what he'll do. If companies really care about putting people to work and they do all the things that you, laurigee and your husband do for their employees, I do not believe that a tax plan that Obama comes up with will burden you to the point of putting you out of business. Now if there are extenuating circumstances - like a plant shut down in your town - that causes you to go out of business because people in the community can't buy cars, then that's different. Lets face it. The economy is bad and spiraling downward. Obama will probably have to make some really tough decisions. But there is no way that putting companies out of business by taxing them to death makes any sense at all. I used to live in Arizona. At that time, our state taxes were horrendous. And different states have different tax burdens. Some state taxes, combined with federal taxes are out of sight. I hear you when you speak of Wisconsin's high taxes. I know what that means and I certainly don't envy the financial downturn that is staring you in the face right now. If there is a true depression, your family will understand why you can't make it, just like millions of others will learn. God help us if Obama isn't able to pull us out of this mess.

And another thing patty, I am very offended by your rant about Obama. You are patently wrong about many things that you accused him of: like wanting to kill children, for God's sakes! He's never, ever declared that he wants women to get abortions or to kill a baby that is born alive during an abortion. That is a crock of right wing rehtoric that is absolutely untrue. You need to separate campaign lies from the facts. You say that God mandates that marriage is between a man and a woman. But the fact is, according to the Constitution, there should be no discrimination with regard to race, creed, color, sex, etc. But disallowing homosexuals to enter into marriage contracts is discriminating against them and not affording them the same rights under the law that heterosexuals enjoy. Furthermore, separation of church and state is an important component of our government. Religious beliefs should not dictate our laws. Because we know that your religion and everyone else's religion are probably not the same. What if we allowed the other person's religion, lets' say the Muslim religion, govern the laws of our country? Would you feel that it discriiminated against you? There are plenty of Muslim and other religions represented in this country by people who are just as American as you are. Obama does not want to take away your right to bear arms. Yes, I believe he does favor some kinds of gun control - perhaps fully automatic assault weapons. Why do you feel you should be allowed to stockpile arms and ammunition? So that you can defend yourself if the government goes rogue on you? You expecting a civil war of some kind? Trust me, if they want to storm trooper your neighborhood, you won't be able to stop them with your puny stockpile of weapons vs. their mighty defense arsenal. But with some regulations on weaponry in the U.S. people like me can feel fairly confident that if someone decides to go shoot a bunch of women who are standing outside Planned Parenthood, it will take them a while to do it and maybe we'll catch them before they climb down out of the tree. As for health insurance. You do understand that with the system as it now is, you're paying for lots and lots of people's health care, right? Since so many people do not have insurance or access to regular health care, when they have health issues they head for the hospital. Well who do you think pays for that hospital visit? The administration at the hospital? The nurses? The doctors? Nope. You do. What Obama wants is for everyone to have access to health care without YOU having to pay for it through higher insurance premiums. Health insurance is so expensive because of this (among other things) many people cannot afford it. He wants you to be able to have the exact health insurance you have right now if that is what you want. Can you choose your doctors through your insurance plan? Well he wants Americans to be able to choose their doctors. You right wingers have decided that what Obama wants for this nation is socialized medicine, as it is in Canada and England. You're wrong about that. Again, that was a campaign tactic that was tossed out there to scare you. Obama is all about free enterprize and in fact has plans to encourage it. What we've had under the Republicans is a complete focus on the upper echelon in this country. That has not produced more jobs for us, it has created jobs for places like India. He wants to reward corporations that create jobs in the U.S. He wants all corporations to pay their fair share instead of the nearly free ride they've had for the past 8 years. He doesn't expect the wealthy to go broke - he only expects that they do their part to make America strong. He wants America to benefit from their doing business here - instead of Americans being beaten down by having to pay such high taxes and by losing their jobs or having their salaries cut so that the greedy corporate bigwigs can make millions and millions more dollars each year. How you can call that abolishing free enterprise is a real stumper! Obama knows as do the people who voted for him, that he's no Messiah. He is just one man and he has proposals that he thinks can help Americans and that will make America a better and stronger nation. He can't do it alone. He can't part the Red Sea. No one expects him to. We are glad that he wants us to be a part of getting this country on some kind of sane course into the future. You do not sound like you have any idea what Obama really stands for. You sound like you've bought into the campaign lies and misrepresentations. No wonder you have misgivings about the outcome of this election. I hope that in a year, maybe 2, you'll look back on this and wonder how in the world you could have ever thought that Obama's goals are not what God would want for this country.

pattygreen: two wrongs don't make a right is absolutely correct. A young child was forceably raped. Forcing her body to endure a pregnancy and raise a child at age 14 is the second wrong she would have had to endure. I do not believe for one minute that Jesus would condone forcing that double wrong upon one of his children. I believe that Jesus feels nothing but compassion for her and loves her and comforted her through her very horrific double trauma. Just because you believe that adoption is an option, does not make it right for everyone. It would never be a choice for me. Absolutely never. Adoption can often be good. But it is not always good and if I chose to bring a child into the world, I could never give it away and expect someone else to take on my responsibility. And just because you believe that abortion is wrong and you feel compelled to chastise someone who posts here doesn't make you right in doing so. It does absolutely clearly define what kind of person you are. You believe that the rights of this young lady are for you to define. You want to make that choice for her and if she doesn't choose what you believe is right, then you feel it is your place to publically correct her. I believe that you are pretty heartless to say what you said. But I am sure that she can handle it. She seems to be very happy with her child and her choice. And I know, for sure, that she is wise and strong. And I congratulate her for finding true happiness in spite of having been through such an horrible event at such a young age.

plain, I'm surprised that you can't understand people's pain over the past 8 years. The confusing part for me is how many people were actually exhilarated by the Bush policies.

As many pregnancies as there are, there are that many different stories. Your story is heart wrenching. I am very sorry that you had to go through that terrible ordeal. But I am thankful that you had the ability to choose what was right for you. It would have been horrible if you had been unable to make a choice for yourself. It would have been horrible if you had been forced to bear a child without your consent. I am sorry you had to go through the hurt outside the clinic. It was pain heaped on pain. Extremely traumatic for anyone much less a girl of 14.

9/11 has made too many Americans accept some of the activities of this administration as being necessary to fight the evil doers. We have fought evil doers throughout history without taking away our own freedoms that our founders fought for. We are supposed to be better than the evil doers. Not just like them. We have justified too much that is wrong for America, all in the name of fighting the terrorists - or supposedly fighting for American freedom. It is no different than what we were told and asked to do during the Vietnam war. Mostly the things we were told by our government were not true. We did not help Vietnam. We helped some of the people who wanted to come to America. But killing their families and bombing the hell out of their country did not make it a free country. Our war in Iraq is not about making those people free. It is about economics. And we will never bring our kind of government to the Middle East. We do not understand the Middle East. They have had conflicts throughout their history. Their conflicts are complicated and far, far older than America. The racial discrimination that has been so prevelant in this country is no better than the discrimination in other countries that we claim to want to help. The ethnic cleansing we've seen in other countries, like Bosnia or the religious conflicts we've seen in places like Ireland or the tribal conflicts in South Africa are horrible. The racial discrmination in this country has been horrible. There will always be terrorists. There will always be assassins and people who blow up buildings and people who put poison powder in our mailboxes. But we should not accept an administration that takes away our freedom, our basic rights, in order to track down the guilty. We have rules that protect our basic rights - those rules should be the standards we all live by. Our president and his administration should never be above the law. It threatens our very democracy. And the Bush admistration has been a elitist goverment with the wealthiest people enjoying the most benefits. We've finally had enough of it and we finally have found a man who promises to run this country in a way that should make us a stronger nation and a place where people will realize that we really all are created equal. The election of Senator Obama is a fine representation of the fact that race is not a factor for the majority of the people in this country. But people of color are not the only ones who will benefit from this election - we will ALL be better people for it. He will hold us to a higher standard and he will be a role model for everyone of us.

A lot of Americans understand the difference between being PRO-ABORTION and being PRO WOMEN'S RIGHTS. I do not believe for one minute that those people who voted down the referendums in South Dakota and Colorado were voting for abortion. Two more beautiful reasons for tears of joy today!

I just heard on the evening news that President Bush has invited the Obamas to come visit the White House as soon as they wish. That was pretty quick compared to some of the past presidents. Wow. Even that made me tear up. Powerful stuff! :smile2:

High five - watcher!

MissyGordon- thank you very much for your post. Really, really cool!

TheGhost- I have something to say to you. I got goose bumps when I read your post. I am so proud of you! Those were thoughtful, generous and obviously heartfelt words and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. It's thrilling to think that the majority of Americans understand what this election means and realize that we really can work together to take our country forward . There is no doubt in my mind that we will be a better people for making this choice. I know that we will always have people who are ignorant and filled with fear and hate. People who refuse to compromise and people who take the law into their own hands. That is prevelant in societies all over the world and we are not immune. But I believe that we took a giant leap toward learning to live in peace and tolerance yesterday and I am so very proud of us.

Obama wins. Amazing. Truly amazing! America is vindicated in my eyes. They really did it. What a blessed relief! What an incredibly amazing time to be an American. I've waited all my life for someone to unify Americans for the greater good. We all have to do our part to make it happen. McCain started the ball rolling with his conciliatory speech tonight. Wow. The whole night has been amazing!!