BJean

Hey Kartboy (you've lost so much weight, you're probably more like a boy now) - CONGRATULATIONS!) thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

I do not justify it. I recognize it as something that has always been a apart of mankind and always will be. We were speaking to the issues here in the U.S. and if there are people who are forced into prostitution here, legalizing it and being able to control it would be a giant step toward busting up those groups who are guilty of forcing girls and women to do it. If it were legal and women had some protection and society had some protection in this trade, it could be cleaned up to a great extent. There will always be crooks and bad people in every profession. That's why we have laws to keep those things under control in every business. Just keeping prostitution illegal promotes the extremely bad parts of it, keeps it physically unchecked, keeps women and girls being taken advantage of, keeps a war atmosphere between pimps' turf, keeps women exposed to the brutality of man and so much more. There are women who choose prostitution as a profession for miriad reasons. They are the ones I am concerned for. They're the ones who need protection. They and the men who have a need to use the services of a prostitute. Like it is now - illegal - all the other bad folks prey on the women who need to make it their profession and the men who need to visit prostitutes. Christians say that we need to abolish prostitution because it is bad and goes against God's will. Well, it will never be abolished and becoming smart about it and protecting the public is what the government should be all about. Just as with illegal drugs, rounding them up and putting everybody in jail from time to time will never solve the problem.

Plain: "Look, I agree that saying "there are death panels" is inaccurate. But, death panels could be the inadvertant result of the overburdening of medical resources." Emphasis mine. Words, yours.

Wrong answer - you did use that term. Indian giver of words.

If you believe that using the term "death panel" is innacurate, why use it? We all know why and hence, the froth. Glub, glub, glub.

patty: "And I resent that you feel it is okay to enforce laws that give women the right to murder. We don't enforce any other laws in this country that gives anyone the right to take someone elses life, and we shouldn't allow women to be able to do it just because that life is within her." BJean: Wrong. Just because you've decided that the cells growing inside a woman are a complete and full human being with all the rights and privileges of every American, doesn't mean it is so. In fact, that union of a sperm and an egg are NOT a human being. It does not have the right to exist at the expense of the woman whose egg became fertilized against her wishes. Perhaps there are instances where women are irresponsible and have unprotected sex without a care in the world. But that is not the only scenario and the government should never be in the business of having tribunals where they decide when a woman has been taken advantage of or when she was not. This is a personal issue. And it is not YOUR personal issue unless you are the one who is impregnated. To deny poor women the right to have a procedure that is legal under the law, is discrimination and it is wrong for America. You are in the minority on this issue. And you are wrong. And the Democrats are no more capable or likely to sneak in a line on a bill that would permit government paid abortions for poor folks than the Republicans are for sneaking a line in on a bill that would provide for insurance companies to continue to be the primary decision-makers in our medical care. Furthermore, a "marriage" that is required to have government documented papers, that allows for certain rights and privleges in our society under the law, cannot be a legal right that is denied to people because of their sexual orientation. If a church has a tenet that says that homosexuals cannot be married in their church, that is a whole other issue. No one is requiring churches to either marry homosexuals or not marry homosexuals. Churches are immune to the anti-discrimination laws. Unfortunately. If churches were not allowed to speak out and endorse breaking the law, encourage their congregation to break the law in fact, then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I believe that churches that support demonstrating against abortion, that endorse certain political candidates and further become active politically and rail against the government and its' laws, should not be able to be tax-free organizations. They should be identified as what they are - organizations that are political in nature and in actions. They should be treated like all the other political entities (that do not pose as churches) and transparency should be assured by government oversight. So it's okay with me if your group wants to rail against the government and demonstrate outside an abortion clinic or insist that we kill people who have been convicted of crimes or get involved in demonstrating, as a group, against all kinds of governmental actions and laws, but just don't go be calling it a church and expect to be treated differently than the GOP or its' Democratic counterpart.

Ah but Patty, we were discussing the Iraq war. That was the context in which you asked your question. This kind of attempt to side step the issue and not take responsibility for what you've posted is what keeps you from having the kind of credibility that you obviously seek.

Onikenbai: "That being said, I'm paying 100% for my lap band because I've opted not to go the gastric bypass route that Ontario will pick up the tab for, so I'm out $18K." Here in the good ole' U.S., I paid over $20K out of pocket for my LB because my extremely expensive insurance plan refused to pay a dime of it. So you're out $18K and I'm out $20K and my assinine insurance premiums. plain: "Look, I agree that saying "there are death panels" is inaccurate. But, death panels could be the inadvertant result of the overburdening of medical resources" That kind of statement is making me froth at the mouth. So I gotta run grab a paper towel before it runs down my shirt.

I have no doubt that many Americans wept the night we dropped bombs on Iraq. You're completely wrong to say that most people supported our invasion of Iraq. Most of us were not allowed to voice our opinions. It was another political war - like Vietnam. God did not tell George Bush to invade Iraq, of that I am sure. And you can't truly believe that unless you've decided that Dick Cheney is God - something that I am sure Cheney and Bush would wholeheartedly endorse. And I resent your earlier claim that President Obama believes in abortion. President Obama believes in a woman's right to choose - that is the law of the land. He is our chief enforcer. He doesn't want or plan to make any decisions for women in regard to abortion. But he should always support laws that keep women from being discriminated against. And that is his position with regard to abortion. He believes that it is a decision that a woman should make, not the government. Our government should not be in the business of passing laws based on theology. The laws need to protect all citizens, regardless of race, creed (religion) or national origin, etc. That includes homosexuals. Government should never bar or exclude homosexuals from entering into a legal marriage. They are entitled to be married under the law the same as heretosexual couples. And this legal argument will be resolved soon, I hope. If your church does not believe in homosexual marriages or abortion, since you're a member of that church, I'd expect you to support your church's tenets. Or if you simply believe that the Bible is God's word and it says that women shouldn't have abortions, then you shouldn't have one if that is what you believe. But that has nothing to do with people who believe differently than you. And I do not believe that it is within your rights to try to ban abortion or marriage for other people based on your beliefs. It is not okay for individuals to take the law into their own hands and to try to prevent other people from being able to do something that is legal. Religious wars are steeped in that kind of behavior.

What it sounds like you're saying with regard to this being a "90% Christian" nation, and be careful about our country being anything but a Christian nation because he'll turn away from us, etc., is that if we allow other religions to be practiced here, it will bring us down. That is preposterous and a monstorous proclamation. You think that because Bush said he was told by God to go into Iraq you think that it was the right thing to do? That is hard to grasp. I believe you, but I do find it hard to believe. You've said worse things, I guess. You claim that you do not discriminate and you do not think others are inferior to you but what you don't seem to get is that you contradict that all the time with your posts. when someone calls you on it in a very specific way, you use words to defend yourself. But your words are hollow. You sound no different than the Muslim extremists who have bastardized their religion to mean something that is not at all what their God intended. If God turns against people in the U.S., it will be the ones who think that only they have the answers and who are willing to go to war and kill people and use God as their excuse.

I love you kartman.

Every poll, plain? How many polls compose EVERY SINGLE poll? You have that info at your fingertips I suppose. And you're quite sure that every single poll is showing that "regular" Americans think just what plain at LBT thinks? That goes a real long way in proving that you're right about proposed healthcare system changes. Not. It doesn't prove anything except that perhaps the insurance industry's ability to sway Americans by clouding and issue and distributing misinformation might be having an influence on those people who have been polled. And we all know just exactly how accurate polls always are. Just like the exit polls after the presidential elections of 2000 and 2004.

That was what I was going to say... watch Cleo'sMom's link. But I'm open-minded. I'm still waiting for pattyg to post her link proving that she knows what she's talking about.

And the yellow sprinkles smell funny.

Do you really think the government doesn't have access to your bank records? Just about everybody else does. Why would you worry that the government does? Bush made your telephone tappable. If the government needs that information for anything, trust me, they can get it. kartman you said it so very well. Except for one thing, the naysayers, the "chicken little's" haven't shut up yet. As evidenced right here at LBT. I reckon if the trend continues and every single penny is repaid, people will say that TARP had nothing to do with it. That it would have happened anyway as evidenced by, blah, blah, blah. And the same goes for medical system reform. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And everyone knows how stupid horses are.

Even Sprinkles?

Yeah right, you like to PLAY doctor, I've heard.

I like it when you're respectfully assertive. What makes you think that the majority of Americans think about it as you do? (um, the majority of REGULAR people? Versus irregular people? Please explain the difference between the regular people and the irregular ones.) At any rate, I respectfully disagree that the majority of people believe as you do about the healthcare crisis. You can't understand that because you obviously surround yourself with people and information that feeds your thought processes to the exclusion of all else.

It sounds like fundamentalists think that because Obama made a statement that is indeed true about the U.S., that the U.S. is not just an exclusively Christian nation, it means that Obama is not a Christian. I am quite certain that President Obama and his family are good Christian people. Fundamentalists have a problem with the fact that President Obama cares about all of the citizens of the United States. He doesn't discrminate against people of other religions and ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Fundamentalist right wing extremists do discrminate against anyone who believes differently than they do, as was demonstrated by the actions of fundamentalist Christians, Cheney and Bush. And as demonstrated by the fundamentalist who not too long ago murdered the "abortion doctor" in his church. When one decides that their beliefs are the only truth, and the only acceptable beliefs to God, that is all that matters. Nothing else is important. It's a frightning dogma. Thank goodness that all Christians aren't so exclusionary and distainful toward people of other religions and toward non-religious people. If they had been throughout America's history, this country would not have been able to become the wonderful country that it has. They believe that their brand of Christianity is what made this country great, but they are very wrong. Their brand of Christianity has caused pain and suffering throughout the ages and it continues to cause division within our country.

When the wealthy and big business have been given all the tax breaks and incentives and they simply shove all their profits into their pockets and continue to raise their prices for even more pocket stuffing, the time has come to put a stop to it!!!! When was the last time that a large corporation made obscene profits and decided to pass the savings on to you? When was the last time the electric companies lowered your rates? It was when the goverment became involved and forced them to. When THE telephone company kept gouging us and our phone service became unaffordable, the government had to step in and force them to break it down and the government created a situation where THE telephone company could no longer have a monopoly on something as basic as telephone communication. I guess if you're a slumlord and a business owner, it is understandable why you're all for obscene profits. You aren't bothered by the fact that the poor are getting poorer and the middle class in America have been losing jobs and losing their homes. And the wealthy? They're wealthier than ever, by such a long shot that there are have been more billionaires created in this country than anyone would have thought possible. These billionaires have been created over the same period of time when our poor and middle class have been getting their backs broken by all of the unfair advantages that the wealthy have over them. What part of that is fair and what part of that is good for America as a country? Especially when these filthy rich corporations do not pay their fair share in taxes which would go a long way in helping bring some fiscal balance to the picture. You probably think that it is wonderful that someone like Ted Turner is so unbelievably wealthy that he can go around the world and buy up millions upon millions of acres of land, supposedly in the interest of environmental protection. Never mind that millions of Americans couldn't afford to have access to the cable television that Mr. Turner made much of his money on. You probably think it is fabulous that two of the most wealthy men in America have joined together to set up a philanthropic organization to do some good, right? Well what I'd like to know is why those same men didn't cut their prices for computer software for instance, which might have made them less able to give away money, but would have allowed more Americans to have access to that fabulous computer software. Greed and power - it's all good right? When does conscience play a role in capitalism? When does responsibility in business and love of one's country and one's fellowman play a role in big business? When did loyalty to one's employees get replaced by a corporation's need to make obscene profits? When did "downsizing" a company's workforce so that their bottom line looked better and watching their employees get booted out of their homes become such an acceptable way of doing business in America? Do you have no concept of fairness and caring and trust and all the good things in life? Why does the love of money have to be what America is all about? Why does the acquisition of material things and power over others have to supercede everything else in this country? Why doesn't this greedy corporate behavior stick in your craw and make you PB? :biggrin:

My story is much worse than your's Cleo'smom. I spelled it all out in a post and in my frenzy, after typing it all out, I accidentally dumped it. I'm sure most of you are thrilled that you've been spared from my personal experiences trying to get medical care and my rant about my frustrations with it. But I have to say that we need the government involved because that is the only way we the people are going to be able to get control our own health care again. We've spent the past 30 years or so becoming more and more dependent on insurance companies to pay for the astronomical costs of medical treatment and now THEY are in control of our medical care. And now, good healthcare has become difficult to obtain - and at this point, the best case scenario is IF we can even GET insurance coverage. Good medical care is a life and death issue. It is not like boats or cars or houses or even public education. It is something that all Americans deserve. It is not something that would just be nice if everyone could have it. It should be as basic to our existence as citizens of this country as is our protection from the threat of war. Nearly all other countries understand that basic premise. Americans are so under the influence of this current system that they have no idea what an abomination the healthcare system in America really is. When we became more and more dependent on the insurance companies to pay for the astronomical cost of healthcare, we became victims of the insurance companies bottom line, because you can be sure that the insurance companies aren't in the healthcare business as an act of charitable kindness. They're in it to make money and make money they darned sure do. Billions of dollars every year. And our health care suffers everytime they go up on our rates and slash our benefits. And we are frustrated and doctors are frustrated and it continues to decline. More people become uninsured everyday and when they do, they lose the ability to pay for medical care. Why can't everyone understand this? Why have Americans bought into the concept that healthcare should be a "for profit business" instead of the life preserving and life saving proposition that we all should be able to have access to? Without government involvement, it is going to only get worse. That we know for a fact. We have a good long history that has brought us to this place. How can people doubt that we have a system of healthcare in America that is sadly inferior to several other countries and less than what Americans deserve?

paycuts? tax cuts? You mean like the, what, $600 humongous tax rebate the last president gave you? Did you go spend it and did all Americans go out and spend theirs and regenerate the economy? That was such a meaningless display of generosity on the part of that president that it was laughable. You've been listening to too many replays of Ronnie's "the only good government is no goverment" which was always amusing seeing as how he participated in government, both national and state government and under his "leadership", the government grew. The whole concept of not wanting government at all is absurd and you know it. I can understand why you want programs to be run as efficiently as possible, but to constantly bellow about getting rid of government is a waste of time and energy. You can't get rid of the government. If you want to made adjustments, work on them one program at a time. Just to holler about "government" being the demon of society is utterly wrong and simply making people feel disgruntled with their country as a whole. Because you sure can't have a country like the United States without goverment. And if you think that it is a good thing to not take care of our own members of society, provide roads and schools and such, and you don't think that Americans are entitled to the best health care in the world, then what kind of person are you?

Amen Sista. And I wrote the President telling him that he needs to quit goofing around trying to please everybody on this issue - as well as the ones you mentioned. We need to get the heck out of Afghanistan and Iraq. better public schools, environmental concerns and less dependence on foreign oil (and that does not mean, drill, baby, drill.) We're the only industrialized nation on the earth that does not see the wisdom in a healthcare system for all our people. Life and death should not be a for-profit option in the U.S. That's what people are talking about when they just want to rein in the insurance companies and enact tort reform. Neither of those things should have any control the medical care people in the U.S. can rely on for good preventative health care and the best medical treatments in the world.

Boom, boom, pow, kitty, you look positively stunning.

supposed to be an excellent complexion elixer. (or so I hear)