BJean

Sorry Daffodil, I didn't notice if you've posted how old you are. I was just wondering if you lived during the time when abortion was illegal? Actually I'm on Central time and it's way past my bedtime. I've been anxiously awaiting my DH's return from the hospital where his mother may be dying. I have probably been way too tense to be involved in this discussion tonight. You have pulled out all the stops and called women murderers and done all you can to pour on the guilt and disgust for them that you can muster. I find that very hateful and ugly and realize that you have no compassion for women who may have made the decision to have an abortion. You only have compassion for the little life you believe that they have MURDERED. You are obviously not someone with whom I need to be sharing a dialogue. You're very impassioned about your beliefs and I am dead set against the tone of your words against some women. I find you to be cruel and unattractive in your anger. I am sure you have worked hard to get the jargon down so that you can insult and direct hate toward women who have chosen to have abortions. If you sleep well at night, you have no conscience. Don't bother posting additional insults and hate toward me tonight. I'm going to bed. I am going to have to try to not vomit after reading your words.

Once again gadget you are very wrong. I do not have an attachment to abortion. I have an attachment to religious freedom. I have an attachment to women's rights to their own bodies. I have an attachment to not having Americans telling other Americans how to live their lives. I have an attachment to Democracy. Abortion is a symbol. A very powerful symbol of things that are going terribly wrong in this country. Things that are utterly terrifiying. Things that continue to prove that our enemies might just be right about us. I want us to be a strong country and an example of religious freedom to the whole world. I want us to prove how well a democratic nation can work and to be an example for other countries to emulate. I want all the hate, bigotry, social injustice, name-calling and hatefulness to stop. I desperately want a new president and a better administration to lead this country. One that is not derisive and self-centered as this one has proven itself to be. I want Americans to stop telling Americans that they are bad people because they do not share the same beliefs. I want many things for this country. Making abortion illegal is not one of the things I want for us. I have lived through the age when abortion was illegal. It did not work. It was horrible. Making abortion illegal is not the answer to any problem. If you work your heart out, as you've said you do, to counsel women, assist them in their decision making and helping them arrange adoptions, if absolutely necessary, then you are contributing to the greater good. Voting to make abortion illegal is contributing to what is wrong in America.

We undoubtedly will be looking back on 2007 in horror, over all the human beings sacrificed by this administration.

The Court did decide this once and for all. You just won't accept it.

Seen the movie, read the book. It's a guppy.

Well that's easy. An embryo is not a living breathing human being. It is a parasite, requiring a host for survival and growth. It can't commit murder. It can't participate in porn. It can't drive or take drugs without its' host providing it. It can't make decisions between right and wrong. It isn't a person. It is a fertilized egg, developing into an embryo, developing into a prenatal person, eventually becoming a living, breathing human being. You will never, ever convince the majority of people that women who must choose to have an abortion are murderers. Say it anyway you like. Get as graphic as you wish. We just don't BELIEVE the way you do. That's because you are wrong. You may believe that your beliefs about this make you a better person, but you are wrong about that too. Screaming from the rooftops won't make you more believable. Neither will insults and rabid analogies. You have your beliefs, other Americans have different beliefs. This is America. It isn't Iran. We don't all have to listen and do what you say when it comes to our bodies and our medical care. God Bless America!

Oh gross, you believe in pornography and killing 35 year old men? You're too much!!! I'm waiting for you to mention the words blood, killing, murder a few more times. It'll make it so much more true. Bring on the bloody videos, get as graphic as you wish. Death, destruction, murdered babies lying in the streets. Whores killing babies. Whores using abortion for birth control. Death, destruction, blood, murder. Wow. Deep thoughts....

Daffodil: To force a woman to give birth to a child because of someone else's belief system is very much like slavery. Nice of you to point this out. But I am not sure why you're so quick to condemn a woman to slavery and to do your bidding, with no consideration for her beliefs or her life in this country that we call the home of the free. I think that slavery in any form should be against the law. I hope that the Supreme Court keeps this in mind when considering outlawing abortions.

Wait a minute Mark. Maybe I'm not understanding your post. But if it is determined that Science tells us when a fertilized egg becomes a living, breathing human being with all the rights of every other human being, how can you ask someone who gets to decide which of the women in that hypothetical situation above, is right? Hasn't science already made that decision for them? Or maybe the decision shouldn't be based on science at all. Btw, some people might see certain images of an early fertilized egg's progression as looking like a fish. But no one suggests that it is proof that a human fertilized embryo is definitely a fish (or a maybe a frog when full term.) So all this discussion of clumps of cells and what they look like in early stages isn't a convincing argument that proves exactly when a human being is a life that is due all the consideration and rights that every human being is entitled to have. For many women facing the decision of abortion, the decision hinges not on whether the fertilized egg is a POTENTIAL life or a COMPLETE life at that point. A child is much too important to produce just because it is a fertilized egg. A child means everything to most women. It is a living, breathing, thinking, learning, caring human being. A child should not be brought into the world just because someone believes that a woman should be forced to give birth to a it anymore than a woman should be forced to abort a child because of overpopulation (or for any other reason.)

It's late. I meant to say that I didn't just pluck this concept out of THIN AIR.

Aw com'on. It's been said over and over that no one can be sure that a baby who is in utero and deemed to be badly deformed, will not be able to live a worthwhile and productive life, and therefore late term abortions should never be legal. In that vein, how can you be absolutely certain that a woman's life will end if she continues with a life threatening pregnancy? There are no guarantees in medicine, only diagnoses. Very few diagnoses in medicine are 100% accurate, 100% of the time. Therefore there will be arguments about whether a woman is truly going to lose her life if she continues a life-threatening pregnancy. There will need to be some definition and the rules will always be challenged with regard to that definition. I can't see it happening any other way given all of the arguments on the table right now. Besides, when abortion was illegal except in extreme cases of a woman's life being at stake, there actually were some public debates about certain cases where women's lives were deemed to be threatened and outsiders (not the family or doctor) tried to intervene. I didn't just pluck this concept out of mid-air. By the way, I do not mind you calling me pro-abortion. I certainly am that. I'm also pro-choice. I don't deny they go hand in hand. Anti-abortionists don't like to be called anti-abortionists, or anti-choice. They like to be known as pro-life. Is that not true?

For anti-choice people (who call themselves "pro-life") who have stated that they believe that abortion should be legal if it is to preserve the life of the mother, I ask you who is going to make the determination that the mother's life is in enough danger for her to obtain an abortion? We can't agree on whether an embryo during the first stages of fertilization is a full-fledged human being with its' own rights, so how in the world are we going to agree on which women are seriously in life-threatening situations during their pregnancy? Anti-choice people don't want a woman and her doctor in control of the choice of whether she should have an abortion now and they would not want to allow the "life threatening" determination to be made by the woman and her doctor either. To say that you are pro-abortion when the life of the mother is threatened, is a cop out unless you can tell me exactly which cases are to be accepted as truly life-threatening. Because I assure you, if the law made abortion illegal again with that exception, the fundamentalist Christians who have fought so hard to take a woman's choice away, will also fight just as hard to control what they decide constitutes a "threat" to a pregnant woman's life.

BTW, it is within our rights as members of LBT to state our opinions here without citing "expert" testimony and without posting statistics to back up our opinions. To me the important part of RnR is hearing people's diverse (usually) opinions. If I want to find some "statistical" data to support my opinions, I can go online and probably find some. We all know that people will report and state just about anything and pass it off as fact on the 'net. That is not to say that I don't enjoy checking out some of the referenced sites and testimony of political movers and shakers that are provided by my fellow RnR posters. But I am a living, breathing, thinking, educated human being. My opinions are my own - I do not have to rationalize them or provide statistical data to support them. By the same token, you are not required to read my posts or give them any weight at all with regard to your own belief system. But to denigrate my comments because I don't provide a bunch of websites for you to read is unfair and kinda snobbish, really.

Communication by the way of written word is sometimes very difficult. I believe you all are sort of arguing semantics. Just as gadgetlady is arguing about who's a Christian. We all know that some fundamentalist Christians are very exclusionary. Even to the point that they believe they are the only ones going to heaven. So to argue the point with them is well, pointless. Their beliefs are not "beliefs" to them. Their beliefs are the extension of God's word. They believe that they're not playing God by wanting to outlaw abortion, they believe that they are doing God's work. They are even more terrifying to me than Muslim terrorists. The possibility of my ever being affected by a Muslim terrorist is very slim. The possibility of fundamentalist Christians making decisions for me is not only a possibility, but it is happening throughout this country as we speak. The fact that they were able to impeach President Clinton for indescretions in the oval office, and yet fully support our aggression in Iraq (even with the knowledge of how incredibly wrong it was for us to bomb Bagdad that night so long ago and even in spite of the beautiful lives that have been taken away by this administration's actions), should strike fear in all of us. Abortion rights are just one more step on their political "Christian" agenda. We are fools if we do not speak out. We will be as foolish as the Germans were before WWII who allowed Hitler and his political empire rule Germany and declare war on their neighbors. How did this happen, they asked themselves when the storm troopers marched through their towns. Well it happened one lost freedom and one day at a time.

Carlene: Other than my DH, you're the only person I've known who has read "Alas Babylon." That was very entertaining. I am also a Heinlein lover. We used to read his short stories aloud to each other while riding in the car on long road trips. Nowadays it's books on tape or CDs. We read tons of spy and detective books and anything with some mystery. The reason I say we is because that's what he buys and once he's finished them, if he liked it, I read it. (I'm a little cheap too.) Political biographies sometimes join the "books on the nightstand" club at our house. He always has several books going at once, but if I think a book is good I just can't put it down until I'm finished. That makes for all-night reading sometimes. Bad habit!

Jenn- How tragic for your friend's family and friends (like you.) I know how you feel both about the loss you've suffered and about the way you've turned to food for comfort. That's always been my M.O. But it doesn't have to be. I like what edie (I think) said about your friend not wanting to be the cause of you sabbotaging your band. I'm sure that is true. My MIL had a stroke right before Christmas. She was doing very well going through rehab for the loss of the use of her left arm and leg. We all were thankful because we knew it could have been worse. Her thought processes were hardly affected, her sight, and her speech only a little. She was regaining strength and her attitude was great. Then she had a second stroke about 5 weeks later. She bounced back again from only a very small setback from the second stroke. She actually did so well in rehab, about a month ago she was able to go home. After 4 weeks at home with some home health care, she was alone one morning and fell and broke her pelvis. Her spirits are crushed. She doesn't want to be bothered with rehab or even people visiting. Everyone is so sad and we really don't know how to help her. Of course she's in a nursing home now and it is a very depressing environment. I am not telling you all of this to make you feel bad. I am telling you this because I want you to know that things could have been much, much worse. You said it yourself, that she's in a better place. You wouldn't have wanted her to suffer in some vegetative state if she hadn't passed. I hope that in a few months you'll be able to start remembering all the good times you had and what a good experience it was having her for a friend and be thankful for that. Her experience should encourage you to get as healthy as possible. Walking a little on your own (if you have a really safe place) is sometimes very cathartic and gives you time to sort a lot of things out. You may already have a walking program, but if not, you might give it a try. Not so much to divert your attention from food, but more for the endorphins you'll benefit from and the time you'll have to think and become determined to be where you really want to be in your life. Someone said on another thread, the greatest cause of failure and unhappiness is trading what we want MOST for what we want at the moment. I'm guilty, but I'm working on it. I've posted that quote on my wall above my computer. I hope you start feeling better soon.:myscared:

Very well said, Green.

You know Carlene, I left the computer feeling bad about my last post. It was terribly sarcastic and not representative of the real me. I hope. Sometimes I try to be funny, but I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just being snotty and scarastic. You are so right that to debate this issue, here or probably almost anywhere, is fruitless. Most people have pretty firm opinions on the topic. The reason I continued to argue is because there are people like my kids and some of the ones who post here who believe that abortion will always be legal and therefore if they are faced with such a decision, they'll make it at the time. So they really don't have to worry about it and in fact, aren't really sure why all the fuss. I do not believe it will always be legal if the current administration has its' way. I do not believe that either of the past two presidential elections were without seriously screwed up procedures that caused the outcome, to not necessarily be the true will of the people. I distrust the party in power because of so many dishonest and underhanded things they've done during this administration and the ones previously. They were seriously stung by what happened to Nixon and it made them stronger and united and with the determination to be in power - no matter what they have to do. I believe that this abortion issue is somewhat at the heart of it. Not the full reason they wish to be in power, of course, but an important part of it. I do not want my children and their children to live in a land where politicians control their medical care and personal, intimate decisions. They have no idea what that is like. I do. That's why I feel so strongly about it. That's why I let scarcasm slide onto my screen. I apologize for the tone of my post. This is an important issue that will not be solved here and certainly not solved by hatefulness or scarcasm. I've been repeatedly disgusted by that aspect of the opposition's approach so much that I'm embarrassed that I stooped to that level. Anyone lurking out there, just know that women's rights over their bodies and their lives is at stake - and I am certainly not being melodramatic. If you ever had a friend or member of the family who was faced with a horrible, life-altering, unwanted pregnancy, you'd understand why allowing the government to control that aspect of their lives is completely and totally unacceptable.

That must have been not only one clinic that he presided over, but a chain of abortion clinics. Sorry, I had no idea that he was a converted Catholic. That makes it extremely understandable that he's being very vocal about his change of heart now. :paranoid Whatever you say, Carlene and gadgetlady. I am sure he's a wonderful man with a heart of pure gold and plenty of statistics to back it up. I am so very over this worn out topic. You haven't convinced me of anything, but I give up on this particular line of discussion. You win, he's a dreamboat of a human being - a veritable saint. Somebody that we should all listen to and follow to his dying day. Hopefully he'll be cannonized in not too many hundreds of years after he dies.

Carlene, you go girl. That porkchop almost had me convinced at first that he/she/it was seriously concerned about bigotry and discrimination. Then I read the rest of his/her/its post. HA. Glad you set him/her/it straight!

Mark, thanks for that. I wasn't willing to spell it out for those who bought it, I figured it would be good for them to figure it out for themselves. I'm a little disappointed that the person who posted such a figure didn't bother to do the math, but such a sensational figure linked to the guy proved to many of us, that he's a windbag with a right wing agenda. Yawn.

Yes Green, I am sure that indeed it would. But even if we had a group consisting of extremely knowledable people to examine the issue, the current administration would not listen to their recommendations. At least that's their track record on many issues to date.

I still can't get over that number you keep quoting. 75,000 abortions. Right. I can't imagine her wanting to witness any abortion for any reason, but that's sure a nice mental image you popped in here.

No I do not dispute the fact that people change their minds. Sometimes people do a complete one-eighty. Which brings up another good point that might be made in another thread... those killers who do a one-eighty and are very sorry for committing a crime. They can be productive members of society because they have seen the error of their ways and will never commit that crime again. Guess that solves the issue of capital punishment. Thank God for Betty Friedan! I met her once. She was a very courageous and sharp woman. I'm not so sure about the company she once kept though.

Yeah, what ever happened to being responsible for your actions! Ah but wait a minute. Shouldn't that apply to society? Just because we're a large mass of people, it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for killing another human being. It does only in some people's minds. The ones who've decided that if a person kills that we should kill them back in revenge. Makes sense. Not. It makes us killers.