I Have a Dream . . .

[Daisalana 33]

Oh and I just had to add this, it pops in my head everytime I see 'heated' religious debates. People only get heated because it bothered them..

In an episode of Six Feet Under, Claire who is an artist and in college for art.. is told she's not an artist. She gets so upset. Later, someone told her.. You must doubt that you're an artist. Because that's like someone telling me I am purple. I would laugh at them, because I know I'm not.

People may say something along the lines of ignorance from being religious, or that they know more about the Bible than Christians, blah blah.. and you should just laugh. :wink2:

[Wheetsin 714]

I've not seen christian bashing aside from the obvious post or two. That benig said, I don't even come close to reading every post.

I enjoy debates of most natures. I wouldn't say that I "get my jollies" from it. It has opened my eyes to so many beliefs, perspectives, and ways of thinking that I would not otherwise have been priveledged enough to experience. Likewise, it has pushed me to reflect deeply and question what I believe is true when others question my way of thinking, and I have to explain my thoughts. Few things are as good at helping you develop real understanding than having to predict your own weaknesses. I welcome any activity that helps me learn, helps me see new perspectives, understand others, or exercise my critical thinking muscle. If that's "jollies" then so be it, I guess.

[RoseNewLife 0]

Well, folks, I have spent the past couple of days thinking long and hard about this discussion and it strikes me that apart from the utterly abusive post which Draz posted there have been few instances where Christians have been assaulted simply because they are Christian. As you well know, there are two threads dedicated to Christians and these are never, ever broken in upon by marauding atheists, Muslims, Jews, or others. And I don't believe that any of you who make reference to your beliefs in your taglines have ever been called up on this by a sneering member of the anti-Christian jihad.

But this is Rants&Raves and this is the zone where ideas and beliefs will be debated, will be challenged. Republicans and Demos are busily bashing each other. The pro-choice/pro-life debate has been raging on for ages now. Islam, and Muslims, have been bashed here. Homosexuals (and the issues concerning their civil rights) have been bashed here in past debates. The invasion of Iraq has prompted heated discussions. Baby Bush is routinely bashed, as is Clinton. Hell, even women and feminists have received a number of smack-downs during the discussions of Hillary's suitability as a Presidential candidate! We have even engaged in discussions as to who may call themselves Christians: it seems that some Protestant groups do not recognise Catholics or Mormons, eh, even though these are folks who worship God the Father and Christ the Son.

Now, when a Christian choses to use their beliefs in order to reinforce their argument whilst engaging in one of these debates, then the nature of this belief system does become open to be challenged for the purposes of the argument. You cannot simply opt to take a side in a debate, then buttress your argument by simply announcing that you are a Christian, and expect that this will suffice. You yourself have opened that door, and your belief system will be challenged. You will be challenged for these discussions pivot on facts and logic and not on your faith.

While your opening post, Rose Wolf, is prettily and glibly expressed, you have made egregious factual errors. Feminists/women, homosexuals, Muslims, and even folks of colour have been slammed here in past posts. I don't really believe that we will be able to all love each other and get along until we are prepared to get down to this business of honest debate.

We are all inclined to indulge in a little hypocrisy, but we will never truly come to understand our brothers and our sisters without undergoing this sometimes painful intellectual and emotional exercise. Rant&Raves serves a valuable role and there are many of us who greatly value it.

No, there have been several posts other than what Draz said, his/hers was simply a last straw, however trollish and foolish it may be. There are some people who seem to like to drag Christianity into a conversation and bash it, even if that was not the topic of the original poster, and it added nothing to the conversation. There were people in the Christian forums who were also upset by the amount of bashing, so I was not the only one who felt this way. I knew my post would probably ruffle some feathers, but it is my right to rant about what I disagree with. I did so without bashing anyone else's beliefs. And I certainly don't expect any "argument" to be simply buttressed by announcing one is a Christian, as if that were the end all to the discussion. I am well aware others believe differently. My point was to be able to express oneself without slinging insults.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on what we believe this forum should be. I read the title of the forum to say, "Rants and Raves" NOT "bash and flame". If I'm wrong perhaps the wording should be changed. Tossing insults at one another is really not getting anyone anywhere. A healthy and heated debate is fine; I am impressed with the intelligence of conversation I have seen in the pro-choice/pro-life thread. I believe adults can have an intellectually stimulating conversation without attacking each other.

I value this forum as well, and I've learned much from it. There are some great people here. May the debates continue.

Peace :wink2:

[RoseNewLife 0]

What Green said.

And that is spoken as a woman who considers herself a Christian. (Rose your opening post was eloquent!)

Thank-you, Faithmd. :wink2: I had inspiration. I doubt most of my posts will be so eloquent, but I will try and keep things civil. I like being here and learning from others!

Peace :Dancing_biggrin:

[anonemouse 1]

Well, folks, I have spent the past couple of days thinking long and hard about this discussion and it strikes me that apart from the utterly abusive post which Draz posted there have been few instances where Christians have been assaulted simply because they are Christian. As you well know, there are two threads dedicated to Christians and these are never, ever broken in upon by marauding atheists, Muslims, Jews, or others. And I don't believe that any of you who make reference to your beliefs in your taglines have ever been called up on this by a sneering member of the anti-Christian jihad.

But this is Rants&Raves and this is the zone where ideas and beliefs will be debated, will be challenged. Republicans and Demos are busily bashing each other. The pro-choice/pro-life debate has been raging on for ages now. Islam, and Muslims, have been bashed here. Homosexuals (and the issues concerning their civil rights) have been bashed here in past debates. The invasion of Iraq has prompted heated discussions. Baby Bush is routinely bashed, as is Clinton. Hell, even women and feminists have received a number of smack-downs during the discussions of Hillary's suitability as a Presidential candidate! We have even engaged in discussions as to who may call themselves Christians: it seems that some Protestant groups do not recognise Catholics or Mormons, eh, even though these are folks who worship God the Father and Christ the Son.

Now, when a Christian choses to use their beliefs in order to reinforce their argument whilst engaging in one of these debates, then the nature of this belief system does become open to be challenged for the purposes of the argument. You cannot simply opt to take a side in a debate, then buttress your argument by simply announcing that you are a Christian, and expect that this will suffice. You yourself have opened that door, and your belief system will be challenged. You will be challenged for these discussions pivot on facts and logic and not on your faith.

While your opening post, Rose Wolf, is prettily and glibly expressed, you have made egregious factual errors. Feminists/women, homosexuals, Muslims, and even folks of colour have been slammed here in past posts. I don't really believe that we will be able to all love each other and get along until we are prepared to get down to this business of honest debate.

We are all inclined to indulge in a little hypocrisy, but we will never truly come to understand our brothers and our sisters without undergoing this sometimes painful intellectual and emotional exercise. Rant&Raves serves a valuable role and there are many of us who greatly value it.

Ditto.

What people should understand is that in the vast majority of "religious debates" on the board (not all, but most), it is not the Atheists/non-believer that brought religion into the discussion. In most cases, what happens is this: A believer and a non-believer get into a debate over something. The believer brings their religous beliefs into the debate as support and justification of their position. The non-believer then challenges the logicality of the support/justification. That's how debates work. Now, IMO, if someone doesn't want their beliefs questioned, they shouldn't bring them up in a debate. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be fair game.

Like Green said, we don't go around hunting Christians on the board. In fact, we generally actively avoid the Christian threads. But yes, if people decide to enter a debate and use their religious beliefs as their support/justification, those religious beliefs do become valid debating material. That's not bashing, it's debate.

And on the idea that a non-believer can't know anything about Christianity, or as much about it as the average Christian.... Well, you don't have to be from Germany to be completely fluent in German and know the history and customs of the country. An Atheist may not understand the spiritual/feeling side of the religion, but they can know the historical/ritual side.

[Daisalana 33]

Wheet- Jollies is a relative term, I meant it as.. some people like it. And you just explained why you like it, so yes, that's your 'jollies' :wink2:

[anonemouse 1]

I've not seen christian bashing aside from the obvious post or two. That benig said, I don't even come close to reading every post.

I enjoy debates of most natures. I wouldn't say that I "get my jollies" from it. It has opened my eyes to so many beliefs, perspectives, and ways of thinking that I would not otherwise have been priveledged enough to experience. Likewise, it has pushed me to reflect deeply and question what I believe is true when others question my way of thinking, and I have to explain my thoughts. Few things are as good at helping you develop real understanding than having to predict your own weaknesses. I welcome any activity that helps me learn, helps me see new perspectives, understand others, or exercise my critical thinking muscle. If that's "jollies" then so be it, I guess.

Ditto.

BTW, can Alex do anything about the board not letting you post a reply unless it's a certain length? :wink2:

[Chelle B 0]

Ditto.

What people should understand is that in the vast majority of "religious debates" on the board (not all, but most), it is not the Atheists/non-believer that brought religion into the discussion. In most cases, what happens is this: A believer and a non-believer get into a debate over something. The believer brings their religous beliefs into the debate as support and justification of their position. The non-believer then challenges the logicality of the support/justification. That's how debates work. Now, IMO, if someone doesn't want their beliefs questioned, they shouldn't bring them up in a debate. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be fair game.

Like Green said, we don't go around hunting Christians on the board. In fact, we generally actively avoid the Christian threads. But yes, if people decide to enter a debate and use their religious beliefs as their support/justification, those religious beliefs do become valid debating material. That's not bashing, it's debate.

And on the idea that a non-believer can't know anything about Christianity, or as much about it as the average Christian.... Well, you don't have to be from Germany to be completely fluent in German and know the history and customs of the country. An Atheist may not understand the spiritual/feeling side of the religion, but they can know the historical/ritual side.

Good post, Lauren, although I must disagree with your first paragraph that basically points the finger to one side only. I've see the, um, debates start from both sides and that's cool by me. It is never one or the other only - that's stereotyping in my book.

And I do agree with you that we can all learn as much as possible about anything we are interested in. However, my point was that some posts back I recall what appeared to be ridicule from non-believers indicating that they know the Bible better than Christians. I didn't get that argument and I still don't.

Heck I studied Madeline Murray O'Hare for a long time because I truly wanted to understand why she fought so hard against things like prayer in school. The vast majority of people would choose to continue the daily devotional - but we lost that right to a few people who were offended by it. Why couldn't we have come up with a better solution that tries to satisfy both sides? We took a right away from the majority to protect the minority from being ostracized in school, IMHO.

Maybe I am too idealistic, but I sure wish we could better appreciate our differences in life. :wink2:

[AlysonRR 0]

A believer and a non-believer get into a debate over something. The believer brings their religous beliefs into the debate as support and justification of their position. The non-believer then challenges the logicality of the support/justification. That's how debates work. Now, IMO, if someone doesn't want their beliefs questioned, they shouldn't bring them up in a debate. Because otherwise, they wouldn't be fair game.

But this is Rants&Raves and this is the zone where ideas and beliefs will be debated, will be challenged.

...

Now, when a Christian choses to use their beliefs in order to reinforce their argument whilst engaging in one of these debates, then the nature of this belief system does become open to be challenged for the purposes of the argument.

...

I don't really believe that we will be able to all love each other and get along until we are prepared to get down to this business of honest debate.

We are all inclined to indulge in a little hypocrisy, but we will never truly come to understand our brothers and our sisters without undergoing this sometimes painful intellectual and emotional exercise. Rant&Raves serves a valuable role and there are many of us who greatly value it.

In response to issues like this on another forum, a friend of mine wrote the following analogy (some phrases changed for applicability to this forum):

I think tensions start not when someone adopts an opinion that differs, but when that person asserts that everyone should follow what they believe.

For example, if I were to say that my DH and I choose to eat low on the food chain (more grains and vegetables, little meat, we're willing to pay more for food that's been raised organically and animals that have been given free range to roam and not injected with drugs and hormones to make them produce meat faster), because I believe this is better not only for our health, but for the planet, and if I quoted the studies supporting my view, we might have a good debate on economics vs ecology.

However if I came in and stated that anyone who can't see the Truth about factory farming and continues to eat meat or buy food at Wal-Mart promotes cruelty, cares nothing about what's really important in life and is too hard hearted or deluded to understand the Truth, I expect I'd get called on the carpet--and rightly so.

So it's not what you believe, but how you choose to express it. Sharing what you believe in a manner that respects the fact that others choose differently and debating the point is what this forum is all about; there are other forums for finding fellowship with people of similar beliefs. Claiming that there's only one acceptable and proper way to view things tends to lead to a lot of tension, because the folks who disagree will step in and say 'we see it differently.'

We all have reasons for why we believe (or disbelieve) what we do. I was a Christian for over 25 years; I was a steady churchgoer from early childhood, brought up with Bible stories leading up to a personal commitment to Christ, and including 5 years of intensive Biblical and historical research. When I converse about Christianity that background is not gone just because I am now an atheist.

We all use our accumulated experience to formulate responses here. That's what makes these types of forums interesting to me. Though I have (or have had) friends who are Christian, Pagan/Wiccan, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, agnostic, atheist, etc., there are subjects I would never discuss with some of them. In that sense, R&R-type forums are revelatory to me - I can question them to find out WHY they believe what they believe and I get to find out how someone with a different worldview sees things without the risk of losing a personal friend.

[green 6]

That was a well thought post. I may have thought it sometime or another, but it seems like it won't do anything.

I've learned in the real world as well as online, there's some things that are just best not to bring up.

I am a christian, who does not particularly care for the politics of church, and fellowship.. But I have my beliefs and that's enough for me.

So, I don't like to go anywhere and 'debate' things like religion. That's like someone trying to debate with you that the grass is purple. You believe what you believe, it's not going to 'solve' anything. Why bother? I don't see the benefit of debates like that.

But, my 2 cents. I've peeked into religious 'debates' here once or twice, but it's not my cup of tea. It doesn't make sense to me. But I think if there's people out there that gets their jollies from it, let em have it *shrug*.

Fairy Facade, I recognise where you are coming from and I respect this. As you have said, you are Christian, one who admittedly does not care overmuch for the politics of church, but at the same time you derive great comfort in your belief. I have no problem with this but you are surely aware that there are fellow believers who do believe that one of the requirements of truly engaging in a relationship with Christ is to engage in a fellowship with other believers, in brief, to commit to a congregation.... I mention this only in order to show you that even to those of you who share a Christian belief there will inevitably be points of conflict.

As for this biz of jollies, well, I have to admit that you are right. The individuals who choose to frequent Rant&Raves do get their jollies through engaging in engaging in debate. Rants&Raves has been specifically created for those of us who find the notion of digging up and pawing over all those contentious issues to be both exciting and of intellectual value. Many of the discussions in which we have engaged have been entirely politically incorrect. This is why I felt that I must challenge Rose Wolf's opening post. Christians, the ultra-dominant belief group in the United States, has not been unfairly picked upon here in R&R.

The truth is that just about every group has had a smack-down here on R&R. Maybe you, Rose, should spend some time reading the archival material in this section of LBT.

Rant and Raves exists for those of us who are anxious to engage in debating ideas. We enjoy doing this. We enjoy swapping information and we enjoy the intellectual exercise involved when attempting to defend our own positions. You are welcome to introduce your beliefs into an argument. It is only fair, however, that your beliefs will be challenged and that you will be expected to defend your beliefs in these discussions. This is the way debate works, and if you choose to view this as a sign of Christian persecution, as something akin to what the early Christians did experience, then I say that you are making a thoughtless and possibly wicked mistake. Certainly your early martyrs were subjected to much more than the trials of open discussion of beliefs, were they? Get a grip, grrl.

[anonemouse 1]

My responses are in blue.

Good post, Lauren, although I must disagree with your first paragraph that basically points the finger to one side only. I've see the, um, debates start from both sides and that's cool by me. It is never one or the other only - that's stereotyping in my book. That's why I said "not all, but most." There are times that people bait other people (people from both sides of the aisle), but that isn't what happens in the majority of cases.

And I do agree with you that we can all learn as much as possible about anything we are interested in. However, my point was that some posts back I recall what appeared to be ridicule from non-believers indicating that they know the Bible better than Christians. I didn't get that argument and I still don't. As I recall, she said that she knows it better than many Christians. Is it ridicule if it's true? Seriously, I'm not saying that to start something, but why should a person pretend like they don't know anything about a topic when, in reality, they are very well educated about it? When they've been a member of the religion in the past and taken the time to educate themselves, read all the material what they can get their hands on, etc., and actually do know what they're talking about? There are many Christians out there that don't know their own religion. They don't know the history behind it, other than what they were taught from the pulpit. They don't know the politics behind it, they haven't read all the material they can get their hands on, they haven't researched both the religion in question and other religions. The simple fact is that there are many people out there, both Christians and non-believers, that know the Christian religion better than them. It's not ridicule to point that out.

Heck I studied Madeline Murray O'Hare for a long time because I truly wanted to understand why she fought so hard against things like prayer in school. The vast majority of people would choose to continue the daily devotional - but we lost that right to a few people who were offended by it. Why couldn't we have come up with a better solution that tries to satisfy both sides? We took a right away from the majority to protect the minority from being ostracized in school, IMHO. People can still pray in school. They just can't force other people to pray with them or infringe on anyone else's rights. In my book, that's a damn fine compromise.

Maybe I am too idealistic, but I sure wish we could better appreciate our differences in life. :smile: I think we do appreciate our differences. That's why the majority rule isn't always the best way. When you force other people to do something (pray in school, for example), just because it's what the majority wants, you are no longer appreciating the minority's differences.

[Daisalana 33]

Jollies seems to be interpretated as something 'bad', and it's not. Jollies just means, something you like. I don't like it, I don't get my jollies from it. You do, you get your jollies. That's ok, I said let them have it :smile:

And I do know a lot of people find fellowship to be important in Christianity, but that goes back to where I say.. do what you believe. I would never tell someone they are wrong for wanting to do fellowship in their religion. And just among christianity there are different denominations that disagree with each other. I don't think the only conflict is between religious vs. non-religious.

I would be hard pressed to find a lot of fellow christians who believe the Kansas church that protests funerals because "God hates fags", is right.

But my personal bottom line is, why bother debating it? Wanting to get info and perspective is fine I guess, I was just more talking about the heated arguments that lead to hurt feelings, and from real life experience, that's where religious debates always lead. I do think intelligent people can have an intelligent debate about these things, but it rarely ends up that way because it becomes emotional.

[pippinje 0]

Christians, the ultra-dominant belief group in the United States, has not been unfairly picked upon here in R&R.

The truth is that just about every group has had a smack-down here on R&R. Maybe you, Rose, should spend some time reading the archival material in this section of LBT.

Rant and Raves exists for those of us who are anxious to engage in debating ideas. We enjoy doing this. We enjoy swapping information and we enjoy the intellectual exercise involved when attempting to defend our own positions. You are welcome to introduce your beliefs into an argument. It is only fair, however, that your beliefs will be challenged and that you will be expected to defend your beliefs in these discussions. This is the way debate works, and if you choose to view this as a sign of Christian persecution, as something akin to what the early Christians did experience, then I say that you are making a thoughtless and possibly wicked mistake. Certainly your early martyrs were subjected to much more than the trials of open discussion of beliefs, were they? Get a grip, grrl.

Green, I heart you. LOL

[plump_princess 1]

It will be nice to have a Christian forum, where we can go and pray together, and freely share experiences without worry.

Speaking as a Christian, honestly, you can't have really, really read the bible and then expect others to love you for preaching the truth about God's word.

Jesus said "pick up your torture stake" to follow him, he said "you can't slave for two masters" and "lovers of the world, are enemies of God."

He was, KILLED, for what he believed in. Christianity is not fun, fluff. In reality, there is only one way to go.... follow him because you know it's the right thing to do, all the while expecting rejection from those who chose to go against his teachings or.... gain acceptance by men.

The bible is clear. We ALL have free will. The bible says sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust.... God is impartial.... but his expectations are clear-- for those who want to follow him. BUT, we cannot force our opinions on anyone. There are going to be folks on this forum who hate the bible and organized religion and maybe they have some reason to be that way, this system of things is a nasty one to be living in. We all have pressures.

Jesus preached the truth, but he was tactful, and never forced what he believed on anyone, and that's what we as Christians can use as our model. LET them have/post their opinions. How else would we be able to preach the word if we don't know who needs to hear it the most? As long as its not abusive, it should be allowed.

[anonemouse 1]

But my personal bottom line is, why bother debating it? Wanting to get info and perspective is fine I guess, I was just more talking about the heated arguments that lead to hurt feelings, and from real life experience, that's where religious debates always lead. I do think intelligent people can have an intelligent debate about these things, but it rarely ends up that way because it becomes emotional.

The thing is, though, it doesn't have to become emotional. For example, Gadgetlady and I have had multiple non-emotional debates over evolution. We debated our beliefs and evidence, etc. Now, lol, other people intruding on those debates tended to become over-emotional and tried to pick fights, but we didn't. I think some people just get too attached to their point of view, even if they aren't the ones engaging in a debate, only observing. To them, any challenge to that belief is automatically a bash. The debate, to me and a lot of other people on both sides of the aisle, is emotionally and intellectually stimulating. It broadens your horizens. I mean, I may not give any creedence to their position at all, but that doesn't mean it isn't stimulating to talk about it and hear their position from their lips (or keyboards, in this case).

Now, onlookers may think the debates are emotional, but that doesn't mean that they are. I think a lot of people see those debates, don't bother participating in them, and think stuff is going on that actually isn't. Does that make sense? I mean, they may interpret the debate as an Atheist bashing a Christian because they have sympathizing beliefs, but they don't realize that the Christian is a full and willing participant in the debate. In the case of myself and Gadgetlady, we have a lot of fun in our debates. We both find them interesting, even though many onlookers may think that the debates are very heated and argumentative. Hell, I even sent her a card at Christmas, and I'll likely try to meet her in person when she gets back over to Kentucky/Tennessee. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that what people see happening or their interpretation of what happens isn't always reality.