Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[skyeblu79 0]

It was the norm 40 or 50 years ago. The Church is a lot less fanatical now. What did they think would happen if we associated with non-Catholic children? Well, aside from not wanting us teased, harassed, and damned to hell for stuff that we weren't doing anyway (worshiping statues, or the Virgin Mary, etc) they thought we might be influenced to actually explore other doctrines. My mom did not buy into this, by the way. I went to lots of different churches with my friends when I was a kid. It was a real eye-opener. No music at the Church of Christ, but my C of C friend couldn't explain why. At another church, we had to wear dresses to a cookout in July - no jeans and definitely no shorts. I even went to a Baptist church's vacation Bible school one summer.

When my kids were growing up in the '80s, they had friends who weren't allowed to go to church with us. My daughter had one friend whose parents were so adamant, it made her desperate to see what all the fuss was about. Of course, my child told her, "You aren't missing anything. It's boring."

Your kids must be around my age. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and that's basically how things were. For most people of the people I knew it wasn't a huge issue. I was in Girl Scouts from 1st grade-7th grade @ a very different church. We were from all backgrounds. I remember in the promise they had God, but you could leave it out or replace it. I loved Girl Scouts!!

[Wheetsin 714]

And I should add, just because I find this interesting, that while I find the west coast (where I was born and raised) to be much more liberal & tolerant in a general sense, it happened there as well as in the midwest.

I did go to a catholic daycare/preschool/kindergarten. And did have my challenges there. Though the instances I've referred to are all within the public school system.

[skyeblu79 0]

Normal school.

Wow, so they were allowed to do that @ a public school back then.:faint: I had no idea...Were the not many people from other religions or faiths, where you were from? Can I ask, where are you from?

[Wheetsin 714]

Carlene, I can't speak at all to the timing or when what became not so big of a deal, but my mother was raised by a strong catholic family (perhaps devout is a better word) and was also educated in catholic schools. She's also left handed. And she recounts stories of being a young girl, in school, forced to write with her right hand - if I remember the stories accurately, something about left-handedness being a sign of the devil. Her hand was literally tied behind her back.

[Wheetsin 714]

Wow, so they were allowed to do that @ a public school back then.:faint: I had no idea...Were the not many people from other religions or faiths, where you were from? Can I ask, where are you from?

Born and raised in San Diego, CA through my sophmore year of high school, moved to Missouri my junior year. I graduated from high school in 1993 having just turned 17.

[green 6]

My parents came to Canada after the war. My father was a Polish Jew who was lucky enough to wash up in England early in the war. He ended up in British Intelligence. Most of his family perished in the Holocaust. My mother was Scottish by roots but she was born in and had grown up in England. They met during the war. Neither of them had any attachment to religious beliefs. It may be that their war experiences severed any belief that they might have had. Who knows?

When they had their three children, myself and my two brothers, after they had come to Canada, they had us baptised in the Anglican (Episcopalian) church. They did this because this was the 1950s and people were still very interested in things like that.

My mum made a point of going to church most Sundays even though she found the exercise to be a boring one. It was the 1950s and this was expected of her. Sometimes she would haul one of us with her but usually we stayed at home in our pajamas with our dad.

I briefly got religion after I was sent to boarding school at the age of 10. The school was run by an order of Anglo-Catholic nuns. My conversion didn't last very long. Christianity didn't seem to be very inclusive and this seemed to me to be very cruel. I was eleven at the time and I didn't like the idea of all those good individuals who had never had the chance to know Jesus being eternally screwed. Because I was only eleven I was also a little dismayed to hear that animals would not get to pass over to the other side. It became difficult for me to continue to believe in such a strange belief and I suspected that there might be something better.

Unbelief or disbelief was something that gradually occurred to me as an adult....

Now, one of you (I think it was Sunta) has pointed out that similar stories to those contained in the Bible can be found in other Middle Eastern cultures. To tell you the truth I have heard this before. It may worthwhile to recognise that the Bible is a collection of documents that come from a primitive culture and they have been subjected to, as Carlene has pointed out, wholesale editorial changes: great chunks of material were destroyed in the early years of the establishment of the Christian church.

My personal feeling as an atheist about this issue of God is that God is formed in Man's image and that God is created out of Man's desperate need for Him.

We see so many versions of God being bruited about, do we not? Some of these versions of God are very narrow-minded and judgemental. Let us look to the Christian God. Why, some of these pastors who speak for this God are not even willing to acknowledge the validity of other Christian sects!

We have also seen good Christians post here who have another view of God and of Jesus. These are passionate individuals and they claim that they are following the Bible - for it is inerrant, remember! - but they have chosen to cherrypick out of this complex and often somber and violent document.

I believe that if you want to come to a good understanding of a society, its fears and its values, you should examine its God.

[~Pam~ 0]

The unpardonable sin is the deliberate refusal to acknowledge God's power in Christ. It indicates a deliberate and irreversible hardness of the heart.

I believe with my whole heart and soul, not by any hardness of heart and not by defiance, but I just truly, deeply believe, that Jesus as we know him in the bible, is mythology, the same as Greek mythology, Indian mythology, or any other religious mythology.

After thinking for myself and carefully examining the evidence, I've decided that Jesus may or may not have lived in history, but that the lore that grew up around him was hand-picked by kings, based on other ancient God's stories, revised by hundreds of people over hundreds of years, and is totally implausable, and therefore, is not true.

I know that other gospels and texts have been purposely suppressed by the church, and that the bible was written with a direct agenda which included keeping women from holding positions of power (priest, etc) in the church.

I know that other texts have surfaced which have just as much historical validity as the scriptures, and that they are dismissed by Christians as "false." Now, what makes these documents "false" and the scriptures "true"? Is it simply because your pastor/priest says so?

I see alot of people not thinking critically, but just believing whatever they are told without questioning the validity of what they are being told, or thinking about what they really believe. The things that they really believe are impossible according to the laws of science and nature, and they are impossible according to everything we know to be true.

The story has been told many times, and long before Christ's arrival on the scene: The child who will be the savior of his people is born surrounded by miracles. His mother became pregnant under mysterious circumstances and/or godly intervention. His birth was lowly, not fit for a king or a god. The birth was foretold and announced by miracles and cosmic signs. He performs miracles unlike any other person, feats of superhuman ability. This is Jesus's stroy, but it is also the story of Adonis, Dionysus, Mithras, Arthur, and hundreds of other god and heroes of myth, legend and religion. If you want to read texts very similar to the bible but written long before, check out Egyptians Orisis and Horus and the Greek God Dionysis. There you can read stories about feeding a multitude, raising people from the dead, battling temptation from Satan (or "Set" as in the case of Horus), changing Water into wine (Dionysis did this at a wedding), riding into town on a donkey with the crowd waving foliage, trial before a ruler, crucifixion and resurrection (also Dionysis, only a Pegasus took him to heaven instead of being magically ascended). These are just two Gods out of hundreds where identical situations/characterizations to Jesus occured in the text. Most likely the bible was gleaned from many Gods over time, and compiled into one just monotheistic figure, who is Jesus. If I went and gathered all of the myths from lots and lots of Gods, I could give so many more examples, but I don't have time.

Just as we do not believe in ancient Greek and/or Egyptian mythology, because it is too fantastical, so I do not believe in Jesus.

I know the appeal and the strong lure of hoping, wishing, and praying that these things are/were true, but unfortunately, they are not. Everything that we know to be true, every principal of what we know to be fact, runs contrary to belief in these things.

That, combined with the examples cited above of pre-Jesus myths that tell the exact same story, I can deduct that Jesus was a mythological figure compiled from other mythology.

And that is the reason I become so angry when belief in this mythological figure shapes our laws.

The pupose of this post is not to inflame, but to explain and inform regarding my beliefs, and I hope no one is offended. This is simply what I believe. I think people should be free to believe whatever they want to, I really do, I just don't want laws made based on their religious beliefs.

Oh this is an interesting topic! I’ve done much research on this one! Let’s examine these claims, shall we?

Oh and before I begin, I appreciate the fact that you presented your views in a calm and intelligent manner. I was not offended by your post.

Now let’s have some fun…

(I’m odd and love this kind of stuff…bizarre, I know!)

If you really examine the so-called similarities, they really aren’t so similar! Often times, skeptics of Christianity seem to purposely make much different details sound as similar as possible. I’ll talk a bit about the mythological characters that seem to come up the most often as paralleling Jesus’ life…

HORUS & OSIRIS

BIRTH: There are a couple of different version of his birth:

Version 1: Hathor, who was represented by the cow whose milk supposedly brought forth the Milky Way, conceived a son by Ra, the Egyptian Sun God.

Version 2: Isis (Hathor was supposedly Iris’ mother but then over time they were kind of considered one in the same) was Horus’ mother and she practiced magic to raise her husband, Osiris, from the dead so that she could bear a son by him that would avenge his death.

With either versions, there is absolutely no indication of a virgin birth whatsoever. God, the Creator, was not Horus’ father and neither Hathor or Isis was a mortal woman. Horus was not born a human man, and he certainly wasn’t born to bring salvation to humankind.

THE TRINITY:

Skeptics suggest that the Christian Trinity was adapted from the idea that Osiris, Ra and Horus were of “one essence”. However, that’s not the case at all. Because Horus was born after the death of Osiris, they believed that he was the REINCARNATION of Osiris, who was supposed to avenge his father’s (Osiris’) death. Then throughout the centuries, the Egyptians eventually considered Osiris and Horus as one and the same. And then eventually, we see Horus (who some versions consider to be the son of Ra) also become the equivilant of Ra.

I’m even confused by that one since they kind of changed their myth part-way through…but regardless, Christ was not reincarnated. In fact, Christians do not believe in reincarnation. And Christ most certainly didn’t come into this world to avenge anyone’s death!

CRUCIFIXION AND RESURRECTION: Even the critics don’t claim that Horus was ever cruxified. Even after the eventual “merger” of Horus and Osiris, Osiris was not crucified. He was supposedly dismembered by Set (but different versions of this story appear as well) and Isis brought him back to live long enough to impregnate her but he wasn’t allowed to return to the world of the living. So there is a bit of a similarity there, but certainly not a “borrowed” story by any stretch of the imagination.

THE NUMBER TWELVE: There are twelve signs of the Zodiac (which are associated to Horus because he was a sky “God”) and Jesus had 12 disciples. I have a dozen eggs in my refrigerator…maybe they connect somehow to Jesus too!

SET AND SATAN (OH MAN YOU’LL WANT TO READ THIS ONE!): Horus battled Set. Jesus battled Satan. They have similar names. Lori and Laura are similar names too…so what?

Much is said about these two though…so let’s examine their stories:

Satan:

Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness and Satan tried to tempt Jesus by offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, if Jesus would agree to worship him. Jesus obviously wasn’t tempted and no violence occurred.

Set:

Now this is Set’s story:

During battle, Horus rips off one of Set's testicles while Set gorges out Horus' eye. Set later tries to prove his dominance by initiating intercourse with Horus. Horus catches Set's semen in his hand and throws it into a nearby river. Horus later masturbates and spreads his semen over lettuce which Set consumes. Both Set and Horus stand before the gods to proclaim their right to rule Egypt. When Set claims dominance over Horus, his semen is found in the river. When Horus' dominance is considered, his semen is found within Set so Horus is granted rule over Egypt.

"O that castrated one! O this man! O he who hurries him who hurries, among you two! These- this first corporation of the company of the justified... Was born before the eye of Horus was plucked out, before the testicles of Set were torn away. It is the day on which Horus fought with Set, who cast filth in the face of Horus, and when Horus destroyed the powers of Set. Then [set] appeared before the divine council and claimed the throne. But the gods gave judgment that Horus was the rightful king, and he established his power in the land of Egypt, and became a wise and strong ruler like to his father Osiris."

Ummm…I don’t even think I need to comment on that one. Seriously, does ANYONE really think there are similarities here??? Aside from the Lori and Laura….ooppss…I mean Set and Satan’s names of course!

DIONYSUS

The main reason for the parallel here is that Dionysus was the (false) God of Wine and Jesus turned water into wine and that his father, Zeus, impregnated a (non-virgin) mortal women (by having an affair). It’s still a bit of a stretch to compare the two, but at least it’s closer. Let’s compare…

VIRGIN BIRTH: Yet again, there are two different birth accounts concerning Dionysus, so we’ll look at them both:

Version 1: Zeus, disguised as a mortal man, had an affair with and impregnated a mortal woman, Semele. Hera became very jealous and convinces Semele to ask Zeus to reveal his “God” form to her. Since no human can look upon a god and live, she instantly turned to ashes. Then Zeus rescues the unborn baby from Semels’s ashes and sews the baby into his thigh (yes, you read that right…his thigh).

Version 2: This version says that Dionysus is the child of Zeus and Persephone. Hera becomes extremely jealous and tries to destroy the child by sending the Titans to kill him. Zeus tries to save the child but it was too late and the Titans had eaten (yes…eaten) everything but Dionysus' heart. Zeus then takes

the heart and implants it into the womb of Semele.

Well thankfully, baby Jesus wasn’t eaten…nor was he sown to anyone’s thigh. But a human woman was involved, so at least it’s a bit closer.

Anyway, no virgin birth here either.

DONKEY RIDE: Yep, Dionysus rode a donkey. So did Jesus. So have millions of other people.

However, what makes this donkey ride worthy of comparison is the foliage the crowds were waving. Since Dionysus was the (false) God of Wine, crowds would wave branches entwined with ivy and grapes. This was a common occurrence for Dionysus. It wasn’t so much the “crowds” (as in general population) that waved these ivy and grapes branches, they were his entourage who traveled with him regularly.

This happened to Jesus ONCE. It was during his triumphant entry into Jersusalem and the crowds spread palm leaves on the road (not ivy and grapes) as a sign of welcome.

Now what’s really important is this…the Messianic prophesy that foretold that Jesus was to arrive into Jerusalem this way (written approx. 1400 BC) PRE-DATES Dionysus. So if anyone “borrowed” this story, it would be the Egyptians who did. But truthfully, I don’t think they took this story from the Messianic prophesies either. A donkey ride and some foliage really doesn’t make that impressive enough story to bother stealing, I wouldn’t think!

WATER INTO WINE: As mentioned before,Dionysus was the (false) God of Wine so the fact that he supernaturally made wine doesn’t overly surprise me. Jesus did turn water into wine once (for a wedding) but he did hundreds of other miracles as well. The fact that ONE miracle is the same as a miracle some other “God” performs, isn’t all that impressive of a comparison. Now if Jesus called himself the “God of Wine”…or decided to be a wine-maker instead of a carpenter before being anointed, then we’d have something worth discussion!

CURIXIFICATION AND RESURRECTION: They made no claims about Dionysus being cruxified. They did, however, claim that he was “reborn” when he was implanted into another woman’s womb because his mother turned to ashes…or when his heart was sown to Zeus’ thigh when he was eaten by the Titans (depending on the version of the story). Oh boy, after typing that, I don’t think I have to point out the differences, they are pretty obvious! LOL

Oh but I should say that when we was “reborn” that it was supposed to symbolize the vegetation cycle (since he was also considered the god of agriculture and fertility of nature too), and certainly not the atoning of sin!

So no cruxifiction, no dying for the salvation of humankind, nothing overly comparable to Christ.

I know this post is getting really long now, so I’ll stop with these two since these were two of the main “Gods” that were mentioned in the original post. But I also have a ton of information on the (lack of) comparison between Jesus and Mithras and Attis as well. Krishna and Buddah too if anyone is interested. And quite a bit about other “lesser” (false) Gods as well.

Oh but I just have to end with this more modern analogy I found. I thought it made an awesome point about how easy it is to find comparisons if we’re really looking for them!

Kennedy Versus Lincoln:

1. Lincoln was elected to congress in 1846. Kennedy was elected in 1946.
   
2. Lincoln was elected president in 1860. Kennedy was elected in 1960.
   
3. Both presidents were killed by an assassin’s bullet.
   
4. Both presidents were killed on a Friday.
   
5. Both assassins were killed before their trials.
   
6. Both were presidents during times of major changes in civil rights.
   
7. The names Lincoln and Kennedy both contain seven letters (This reminds me of the “oh my goodness, there are 12 disciples and 12 Zodiac signs!” argument).
   
8. Both assassins were known by three names consisting of 15 letters.

In other words, if you’re looking hard enough for comparisons, you’ll find them.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene, I can't speak at all to the timing or when what became not so big of a deal, but my mother was raised by a strong catholic family (perhaps devout is a better word) and was also educated in catholic schools. She's also left handed. And she recounts stories of being a young girl, in school, forced to write with her right hand - if I remember the stories accurately, something about left-handedness being a sign of the devil. Her hand was literally tied behind her back.

Wow! That's the first time I have ever heard anything like that. My mom was born left-handed too and was forced to use her right because it wasn't considered "ladylike" to be a leftie. But no one related it to the devil, nor did they tie her hand behind her back. The nuns just whacked her with their ruler....LOL

My middle son is left-handed. Most people make the sign of the cross in this fashion:forehead, chest, left breast, right breast. But what came naturally to Patrick was forehead, chest, right breast, left breast. We had a DRE (Director of Religious Ed) at church who told him he was doing it backwards and it was a "bad habit" he needed to break. I challenged her on this and we took it to the Monsignor. He said it didn't matter...that there was no "wrong" way to make the sign of the cross. I wanted to stick out my tongue and gloat like a 4 year old, since I never liked the woman in the first place.

[Carlene 12]

During battle, Horus rips off one of Set's testicles while Set gorges out Horus' eye. Set later tries to prove his dominance by initiating intercourse with Horus. Horus catches Set's semen in his hand and throws it into a nearby river. Horus later masturbates and spreads his semen over lettuce which Set consumes.

Good grief! Kind of makes you wonder what those Egyptians were smoking, doesn't it?

[GeezerSue 7]

Trying to force right-handedness on kids was practiced in public schools, too. As far as I know, it went out of favor mid-century...maybe a little earlier. But it wasn't limited to Catholic schools.

[~Pam~ 0]

Good grief! Kind of makes you wonder what those Egyptians were smoking, doesn't it?

Oh I know!!! I didn't know whether to laugh or throw up when I first read that!!! EEEEWWW!!!!!

[Carlene 12]

I was in Girl Scouts from 1st grade-7th grade @ a very different church. We were from all backgrounds. I remember in the promise they had God, but you could leave it out or replace it. I loved Girl Scouts!!

My daughter was in Blue Birds/Camp Fire Girls and one of my sons was in Boy Scouts. They were always very accommodating and whenever there was a camp out on the weekend, someone would take my child to the nearest Catholic church so he/she could attend Mass, while the others had a non-denominational chapel service. This wasn't something I asked them to do....the scout leaders just took it upon themselves to do it.

[GeezerSue 7]

Sunta and Pam...you ladies sure do your homework. I really--I mean REALLY--do not enjoy mythology but I admire those who manage to wade through it.

Pam, throughout history, man has "created" magical, mystical, powerful beings to help make the world easier to understand and to provide protection from things not understood. That all of these stories share those features makes them (from my perspective) have far more in common than they have separating them.

[leatha_g 4]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Sunta 4]

My only question, Pam, is why are the Greek and/or Egyptian Gods "myths" and Jesus is not? They are all "Gods" and most perform miracles and fight "evil" and etc.

I'm not saying that every single action these other Gods took exactly is the mirror of Jesus's actions, I'm saying that there are plenty of similarities between Jesus and many, many other Gods. The writers of bible most certainly picked and chose which stories to keep, tweak, discard, change, and borrow from.

Yes, of course there are differences, but overall, the themes are very similar, and in some cases, the stories parrallel exactly.