I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

I am glad that what you're doing works so well for you.

Once when I was a member of the Baptist church, the minister preached a regular sermon setting the congregation straight as he did every Sunday. After his sermon he said he had something very important to say to us.

He said that there was a woman, a church member, who had come to him complaining that her husband was hitting her. It had happened on 2 occasions. The second time he hit her so hard and so many times, that she had to go to the emergency room.

The reason she came to the pastor was because she didn't know what to do. She knew she couldn't get a divorce because she understood her vows and what the Baptist church teaches about marriage being forever, but she just couldn't put up with her husband's abuse.

The pastor said to us, let us make no mistake about what this woman needed to do. She needs to absolutely abide by her husbands wishes and get right back to work, listening to her husband and not causing him, who is the absolute head of the household, any trouble. And the pastor said, that is what I counseled this good woman of our church to do. Heed her husband's words, no matter what. He told us, I thought that you all needed to hear this lesson and perhaps refresh your minds on what the Bible teaches us about the family and the roles of the husband and wife.

Those words coming from the pastor sound like satan to me. He has the blood of that woman's abuse (and similar women) on his hands. I wonder what he would have said to a man who came to him with that problem?

For something that outrageous, I'm afraid I would have walked out and never returned. How dare he?

Men have been abusing women forever. And to think that they get a stamp of approval from someone who claims to be a man of God.

Just another example of how religion is used to justify something that is wrong. It makes my blood boil.

For once, I agree with you. This makes my blood boil as well. I would never condone staying in a home where a man abuses a woman, even verbally. This kind of abuse sickens me.

I also do not condone divorce for any reason except for marital unfaithfulness. Therefore, my counsel to her would have been to seperate from the abuser until such a time as he has received help for his abuse problem. If that never came, then she could remain seperated.

It made my blood boil too, Cleo's.

I know that he used it to make a point to teach what the church stands for regarding marriage. But I can tell you that what he said still haunts me today. I wonder whatever happened to that poor woman.

That minister was a powerful force in our little town. And he preached guilt, hell, fire and brimstone. It took me about 2 years of participating in that congregation to realize what being a Southern Baptist was all about.

They carried their Bibles dutifly to church twice a week and they could quote scriptures from memory, and then there was how they lived their lives on a daily basis. And those two things were not one and the same.

It made my blood boil too, Cleo's.

I know that he used it to make a point to teach what the church stands for regarding marriage. But I can tell you that what he said still haunts me today. I wonder whatever happened to that poor woman.

I know that the bible teaches that divorce should not be an option except for unfaithfulness, but it should not teach that abuse should be tolerated. He should have used it to teach the church about how men should treat their wives!

That minister was a powerful force in our little town. And he preached guilt, hell, fire and brimstone. It took me about 2 years of participating in that congregation to realize what being a Southern Baptist was all about.

I think that there should be a balance between what is preached. It is good to teach about hell and God's judgements and justice, but it should be balanced with teachings on his love, mercy, and grace.

They carried their Bibles dutifly to church twice a week and they could quote scriptures from memory, and then there was how they lived their lives on a daily basis. And those two things were not one and the same.

Maybe it was because that particular denomination teaches that once you become saved, you will always be saved. This teaching does not help people to live as they should before God. It allows them to relax where their wrong doings are concerned. The bible teaches that you CAN lose your salvation. I don't believe you can lose it very easily, but I think that if you get to a point in your life when you say "You know, I don't believe any of that anymore like I used to." God gives you what you desire. Also, when we do wrong before God, His Holy Spirit departs from us to only return after we repent.

I don't believe that God's spirit comes and goes with our ever-changing moods and beliefs. He's either with us or he doesn't exist.

I find no difference in that part of the Baptist doctrine that teaches that once saved, always saved and the remarks that you've made about being a sinner.

You've said that you accept that you are a sinner but that you know God forgives you because he expects us to sin. And you have gone on to say that because of having accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior, etc... you are going to heaven. I've never read that you've put a caveat on that passport to heaven, that if you get mad at God for some personal loss or grief or depressed mental state or other reasons for perhaps temporarily not feeling his spirit within you, that he will leave you until you invite him back.

The picture you paint of God is grim and depressing and it seems that you give yourself a pass if you sin - because God expects it. I don't believe that is what God, spirituality, love and grace is all about. You've pidgeon holed your particular brand of believing that is what you are comfortable with and able to have faith in. It's what you NEED right now. Later perhaps, you will be open to understanding what you are missing in the big picture.

More republican hypocrisy: One of these is the guy who concocted the "gotcha" undercover plan against ACORN. Let's see if this gets as much media coverage:

The FBI, alleging a plot to wiretap Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's office in downtown New Orleans, arrested four people Monday, including James O'Keefe, a conservative filmmaker whose undercover videos at ACORN field offices severely damaged the advocacy group's credibility.

FBI Special Agent Steven Rayes alleges that O'Keefe aided and abetted two others, Joseph Basel and Robert Flanagan, who dressed up as employees of a telephone company and attempted to interfere with the office's telephone system.

A fourth person, Stan Dai, was accused of aiding and abetting Basel and Flanagan. All four were charged with entering fedral property under false pretenses with the intent of committing a felony.

A witness from Landrieu's staff said O'Keefe was present in the office and claimed to be "waiting for someone to arrive."

Yet, they claim ACORN broke laws. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? No, it's just another hypocritical republican. No shortage of them.

I'm sure someone will enlighten me but I have yet to see any evidence that ACORN broke any laws.

I know that ACORN tried to help people get out and vote and they helped get them to polling places, etc. They worked to get people registered to vote that otherwise may not have become voters. They admitted that some of the people they hired to sign people up to become registered voters, were fudging because they were paid by the number of folks they helped to get registered. That system combined with the poor quality of some of their employees, caused the problems. So they admitted that their system needed fixing, but they did not intentionally go about trying to register voters who were ineligible or dead.

In fact, the registrar's office is the entity that actually registers voters. Not ACORN. And in any cases where ACORN realized that some people might be questionable, they called it to the attention of the local registrar so that the registrar's office would be sure to check them out before placing them on the rolls.

I hope someone will publish proof that ACORN is the horrible company that people have made them out to be. And if they can't, I wish to hell they'd stop accusing them publically of things that ACORN is not guilty of.

As Americans we should be proud and happy that the most people who CAN vote legally, WILL vote legally. It is what democracy promises and what we believe in as a form of government.

Edited January 27, 201016 yr by BJean

As for the mess in Louisiana, it sounds like another Dirty Tricks gambit but they were caught in the act!

Like Bush said... fool me once, shame on me, fool me uh... uh you just better not fool me. (Or something like that.)

All the holier than thou republicans in congress couldn't wait to cut ACORN's funding after the gotcha undercover episode. Let's see if this story gets legs. If you watch Fox news you probably won't see it. What these men did was a felony. They should go away for a long time.

What will be more interesting is how far up this felony wiretapping episode goes. Who knew what and when did they know it? Remember that Watergate was first thought to be a 3rd rate burglary until...well, the rest is history as they say.

Remember that Watergate was first thought to be a 3rd rate burglary until...well, the rest is history as they say.

BUZZZ!! Technical foul! You can't bring up something that happened almost 40 years ago. Some people in this debate weren't even reborn yet.

BUZZZ!! Technical foul! You can't bring up something that happened almost 40 years ago. Some people in this debate weren't even reborn yet.

Good one!:thumbup:

You don't have to have lived through it to read about it in the history books. If we don't learn from our past, we are doomed to repeat it.

Looks like we haven't learned much, eh?

Ok. I'm slow. But I'm old. REborn yet. Good one!

Maybe it was because that particular denomination teaches that once you become saved, you will always be saved. This teaching does not help people to live as they should before God. It allows them to relax where their wrong doings are concerned. The bible teaches that you CAN lose your salvation. I don't believe you can lose it very easily, but I think that if you get to a point in your life when you say "You know, I don't believe any of that anymore like I used to." God gives you what you desire. Also, when we do wrong before God, His Holy Spirit departs from us to only return after we repent.

I'm refering to my own post here. I made a mistake when I wrote what I underlined above. Sorry. I don't know why I wrote that. I know that "God will never leave us nor forsake us". I believe he will gently guide us back to repentance if we sin.

More republican hypocrisy: One of these is the guy who concocted the "gotcha" undercover plan against ACORN. Let's see if this gets as much media coverage:

The FBI, alleging a plot to wiretap Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu's office in downtown New Orleans, arrested four people Monday, including James O'Keefe, a conservative filmmaker whose undercover videos at ACORN field offices severely damaged the advocacy group's credibility.

FBI Special Agent Steven Rayes alleges that O'Keefe aided and abetted two others, Joseph Basel and Robert Flanagan, who dressed up as employees of a telephone company and attempted to interfere with the office's telephone system.

A fourth person, Stan Dai, was accused of aiding and abetting Basel and Flanagan. All four were charged with entering fedral property under false pretenses with the intent of committing a felony.

A witness from Landrieu's staff said O'Keefe was present in the office and claimed to be "waiting for someone to arrive."

Yet, they claim ACORN broke laws. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? No, it's just another hypocritical republican. No shortage of them.

I see it like this. They should not have tried to tape their phone calls if this is what they were attempting to do. Sometimes, when people know that someone is doing something illegal, they will attempt to get proof of it, and in so doing, do something illegal to get their proof. This is not right. But I've heard of police doing this kind of thing. They know of a criminal, and if they just had such and such proof, they could arrest them. They set up some kind of sting, and catch them, but when in court, they find that this was illegal to do and it can't be used against the crooks in the trial. But, the police just wanted them caught, so they did it. These guys who got arrested for trying to catch the ACORN employees did the same thing. Still wrong, but I can understand why they did it. I wouldn't have gone to those extremes, but I'm not them. ACORN is one of those government agencies that is deceitful and corrupt. They have been proven to abuse the system. (which is made up of some of our tax dollars). Hypocritical? No. They just want what's just and right. Liberals and progressives should aid in the investigation of what happened and why, rather than attempt to defend ACORN or remain silent.

Edited January 27, 201016 yr by pattygreen