I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

The reason there is a debate going on about Democrats vs. Republicans; conservatives vs. liberals is because there ARE distinct differences between the two party platforms. (Look it up if you don't know what a political party platform is in America.)

It sounds cool to say that you don't belong to either party and that you only vote for the person. But it is factually incorrect if you vote for someone in a national political race. You get the political core values of whichever party the candidate belongs to.

So like it or not, you've voted for the Democratic or Republican party. If you want to count voting for the Independents and other off-shoot parties that's fine. Just don't think you're really accomplishing much because the only thing you're really doing is lodging a little protest against the two major parties when you vote for one of them. If it makes you feel better, then perhaps it's worth it, eh?

But I wonder... if you don't vote, why do you care? You have rendered yourself politically impotent and you have no say in what the government does to you or for you. So why argue about it?

All one must do is tune in, read and pay attention and you can very quickly see which party's candidates appeal to you and why. And it doesn't have much to do with them personally because they are mostly held to the party standards when it comes to a congressional vote or action.

Now on a local level these things aren't necessarily true. But when you speak to national politics, choosing a political party is necessary if you are going to use the only real power you have - your vote.

And by the way, when you're listening to people speak and you're reading the paper and watching the news, you must use your brain power to distinguish between the good guys and not so good guys. If you fall for much of the garbage that the pundits toss out there to cloud the real issues, then you're just going to become one of the party's tools to get whatever their real goals are. And therein lies the rub. What are their REAL goals?

We get all het up about the personalities of our politicians and the personalities of the talk show hosts and we jump all over the funny buzz words and competitive jargon. The more outrageous, the more fun. But what we all need to think about is what is best for our country.

What we need from a national politician is for them to help run this country in a way that ensures our freedom and makes us the most powerful and well-thought of big brother on the planet. Think of your government as your big brother and maybe it will be a little easier for you to determine what you want from him. Because whether you want a big brother or not, you've got him. And if you don't like having a big brother looking out for you, perhaps you should try to get adopted by some other country that will let you fend for yourself in all things.

Conservatives are definitely not stingy. They are 'fair'. When a person does not want their gov. to support others with their money, it does not mean they are stingy. This is the BIG difference between liberals and conservatives. C's want the people to be independant, L's do not. It's likened to a parent who withholds things from their children because it is 'What's Best" for them. They will succeed in life if you don't buy them their first car and they save for it themselves. They will even take better care of it if they pay for it themselves. C's are very giving, yet they have higher standards for others. If they can succeed, so can those who take the governments money instead of helping themselves. Dem's are insecure because they have a great need for the gov. to control their existance here. Oh, yes, we need the gov. for some things. (military defense, police, infrastructure, etc.) But we don't need a high percentage of the wasteful spending that they do. That's another differnce between the 2. Needs vs. wants.

This attitude that the government must act like a strict parent and withhold things from people "for their own good" is EXTREMELY patronizing and condescending and is offensive.

The government is not big brother, the government is "we the people" and as a people we do not let our fellow brothers and sisters suffer. That is not who we are. That is what differentiates us from the countries that do. Countries like Iran, Uganda, etc.. I don't want to be like them.

There will always be poor people, people with disabilities and people who are unemployed and all these people suffer. Yes, some of them have made bad choices, but we cannot punish them all for the mistakes of a few.

I am glad I live in a country as great as American that doesn't turn it's back on the least among us.

Well I agree with you Cleo'sM, as you know. But on another thread I did compare the government to "big brother" because I was trying make a point to the people who think of the government as BAD, so that they might try to think of the government as a caring brother who is looking out for its siblings' safety and well being. Not to control its brothers and sisters but to make them safe, healthy, wealthy and wise.

We collectively pay the government to do that and without the government we would be trying to fend for ourselves as in other countries where their people die from hunger, the infrastructure is unusable, the police are corrupt and a whole list of other problems that our government makes sure that Americans do not have to endure.

It's popular to diss the government and to quote that idiot, Reagan, that all government is bad. Having a good, fair government in place is what has made this country great.

And having our politicians give all the breaks to the wealthy and corporations is what has been tearing this country down - nearly to the point of collapse. That would be like your big brother knocking you down to keep you out of the cookie jar atop the refrigerator and keeping all the Cookies for himself.

BJean - I didn't see your post where you used that term. I was referring to another poster, as you know. I agree with you, too.

And isn't it amazing that Reagan (and others) say the government is the problem - now elect me to a job in it. What frauds!!!

With reference to republicans trying to re-write history and hating the government at the same time - well, no one captures that hypocrisy better than Alan Grayson. This VIDEO IS A MUST WATCH.

Daily Kos: Alan Grayson Eviscerates Republicans into Confetti - LOL

I know Conservatives/Republicans aren't stingy. But people do think they are. And I come from a Republican family, and I am a Republican myself.

And I disagree with the above statement. My parents bought me my first car, brand new. And I am succeeding. I am getting my Bachelors in Entrepreneurship, and I have already started my very own business.

The new car thing was an example of the many things that parents just 'give' their kids that they don't have to work for. When children grow up having everything handed to them, they tend to grow up with a sense of entitlment and laziness. This is also true of the american people who have everything handed to them. C's are not stingy, they are very giving people. They just feel that when people work for their livlihood, they have a sense of accomplishment and pride.

And do you think using a term like "teabagger" makes you any better then the crazy women calling people Nazi's......

She doesn't see it. She has used name calling many times concerning conservatives, yet she doesn't equate herself with those who call democrats names. I showed her protest photo after photo of democrat's saying nasty things, even death threats on Bush, yet she doesn't get it.

There will always be those who call names to those who oppose them. Even you.

The new car thing was an example of the many things that parents just 'give' their kids that they don't have to work for. When children grow up having everything handed to them, they tend to grow up with a sense of entitlment and laziness.

I guess I am one of the few kids who had everything she ever wanted handed to her who didn't turn out like that. You know what growing up as "the rich, spoiled girl" did to me? It made me want to succeed. It made me want to prove everybody wrong. It made me want to show people that I can make it on my own without my trust fund and all of my parents' money. Now, don't get me wrong, I am so very grateful for everything my parents did/do for me. I will never ever be able to repay them for the great life they gave me.

And, I know Conservatives are giving. At least where I am from, all of the wealthy republicans always give back where ever there is need. I know it's not like that everywhere. I think that no matter conservative, liberal, democrat or republican, you should give to the needy as much as you can.

She doesn't see it. She has used name calling many times concerning conservatives, yet she doesn't equate herself with those who call democrats names. I showed her protest photo after photo of democrat's saying nasty things, even death threats on Bush, yet she doesn't get it.

There will always be those who call names to those who oppose them. Even you.

From the teaparty movement itself: " Proud to be a teabagger". And from a man who loves Jesus. Well, I guess that says it all. It's you who doesn't "get it".

I’ve actually talked to Tea Party activists who referred to themselves as “Teabaggers.” And at the 9/10 pre-March on Washington event at the D.C. Armory, I bought this button on sale from a vendor:

Cleo'sM: Thanks for the link. The second video is incredible and horrifying, but not surprising in the least. The Republican party has sunk to the lowest of lows in politics. Nothing is beneath them.

The reason Democrats find it such a difficult task to fight them is because the Democrats do have some moral standards. I've seen people in business behave like the Republicans are now. They lie, they cheat, they are willing to stop at nothing in order to further their personal goals. They will step on anybody to get what they want.

The people who have scruples have to stand back and take it because they are not willing to lower their standards enough to fight them. But nearly everytime I've seen someone who behaves in an office like the Republicans do in politics, they wind up getting caught and they crash and burn. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to happen, but almost invariably they do crash and burn.

And someone said the other day that there are some moderate Republicans still around. I know that it's true. And it is a crying shame that they have been ignored and cast aside by their own party.

From the teaparty movement itself: " Proud to be a teabagger". And from a man who loves Jesus. Well, I guess that says it all. It's you who doesn't "get it".

I’ve actually talked to Tea Party activists who referred to themselves as “Teabaggers.” And at the 9/10 pre-March on Washington event at the D.C. Armory, I bought this button on sale from a vendor:

You meant it in a derogatory way. When black people jokingly call themselves the 'N' word it is acceptable. When others do it in a derogatory way, it is not acceptable. You know that full well. Are you trying to say that you have not used 'words' and 'namecalling' while refering to conservatives? Because I can go back and get some of your posts to prove that you have.

Cleo'sM: Thanks for the link. The second video is incredible and horrifying, but not surprising in the least. The Republican party has sunk to the lowest of lows in politics. Nothing is beneath them.

The reason Democrats find it such a difficult task to fight them is because the Democrats do have some moral standards. I've seen people in business behave like the Republicans are now. They lie, they cheat, they are willing to stop at nothing in order to further their personal goals. They will step on anybody to get what they want.

The people who have scruples have to stand back and take it because they are not willing to lower their standards enough to fight them. But nearly everytime I've seen someone who behaves in an office like the Republicans do in politics, they wind up getting caught and they crash and burn. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to happen, but almost invariably they do crash and burn.

Thanks for the link. The second video is incredible and horrifying, but not surprising in the least. The Republican party has sunk to the lowest of lows in politics. Nothing is beneath them.[END]

Are you kidding me? The lowest of lows? Let's see. The democrats have proudly taken 'not 1 million, but 3 million' as a bribe to pass their HC bill. Neb. has taken an even bigger bribe, and his own state will boot him out for his horrifying (your word) lowlife, corrupt, deceitful, unashamed deal making in Nov. I don't think he expected such a response from his people there. He thought they'd all be exstatic over his deal for them. They were not. They felt he did an immoral, corrupt, thing and wanted nothing to do with it. He's out in Nov. Do you think that America is 'happy' with the way dems have been wheeling and dealing in Washington? This election today in the state of MA (the most liberal state in the nation) proves their dis-satisfaction with those who you agree with. MA never , ever had to worry about a rep. candidate winning in that state before. Today it will be a VERY close race. Something that's never been heard of before.Why? Because they are SICK to death of people in the Senate who think the way you all do. The nerve of Obama to show up and speak for Coakley on the tax payers dime and time. I noticed that they couldn't even fill the 3000 seats in the place. Since when does a President of The United States show up somewhere and they don't fill the room? That shows you something right there. They just don't want to hear what he has to say.

"lying and cheating and stopping at nothing to further their goals?" "Scruples?" "Not willing to lower their standards enough to fight ?"

Are you kidding me? That's a description of your own party!

Obama has stopped at NOTHING to get his health care bill passed AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY DO NOT WANT IT!!!!! He doesn't care that we don't want it, it's what HE wants, so he stops at nothing and steps on people and schemes and plots and lies and cheats and is corrupt.

The polls show that Pelosi and Reid are long gone in Nov. It's not because their agenda was 'just what the people want'. It's because their agenda is 'just what the people DON'T want'. Are you in denial?

You meant it in a derogatory way. When black people jokingly call themselves the 'N' word it is acceptable. When others do it in a derogatory way, it is not acceptable. You know that full well. Are you trying to say that you have not used 'words' and 'namecalling' while refering to conservatives? Because I can go back and get some of your posts to prove that you have.

Are you trying to tell me that the teabaggers who sought out a business to print these buttons and paid for them are the equivalent of black people calling another black person the N word?

Do you think that black people would have buttons made to sell at one of their marches or protests that said "Proud to be a N*****?

Don't try to deflect from the fact that I was using a word that they called themselves. Don't blame me for using a word that resulted from the name they gave themselves. They caused this word to be associated with their party. They should have been smarter about their name choice. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, now, though.

Now, if you want to go back and quote my posts, go right ahead. I can do the same with you. However, I will never shrink from calling it like I see it.

Edited January 19, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

One way to explain it to you, patty, is for me to use your own post. Yes, the Democrats are involved in party politics and they wheel and deal. Republicans do too. That's how stuff eventually gets done in Washington. Negotiations, deal making, bargaining, etc. It isn't always pretty, but it has become the way to get change in Washington.

But the difference is that Republicans lie to the public. They don't tell the truth when they want to go to war. They lie about the past even though we were all alive to remember what they did. In campaigns they create letters and petitions that are based on lies - and then they sign them and mail them and publish them in newspapers as an ad. They lie when the truth looks better.

And to clarify because I do respect some Republicans - not all Republicans are lyin', cheatin' homewreckers, who will stop at nothing to get their way. Just some of them.

You know it's like some Christians are obnoxious, hell fire and brimstone, my way or the highway folks and others try to emulate Jesus.

So it's never good to generalize and I am guilty of doing just that. But the proof is in the pudding and the clowns that are running the Republican party right now are mired in pudding like mud.