I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

If these people were after the truth, they would not have to pose as a hooker or anything other than an investigative journalist. Because when you watch the video they released, it is edited and cut and patched and who knows what the context actually was when the ACORN employee made her statements. Nothing, certainly, that would stand up in a court of law and not necessarily because it was taped surrepticiously, but because the entire content of the discussion was not presented.

You have to wonder about the motivation of such people. Really interested in uncovering the truth, or interested in inflammatory video of an odd-ball employee to paint an entire organization with? And I say odd-ball although I have no idea if she really is. I didn't hear both sides of the discussion or why she said what she did.

The right wing is incensed because there have been so many people who are not supportive of the right wing cause who have been registered to vote and brought to the polling places to vote. For some reason they deem this to be unfair practices in politics.

The leftists got out the vote. The right wing can't win doing that, so they use subterfuge, fear, shock and awe to win elections. And by damn, it works. Which is truthfully a sorry inditement of our politics in America.

I see it like this. They should not have tried to tape their phone calls if this is what they were attempting to do. Sometimes, when people know that someone is doing something illegal, they will attempt to get proof of it, and in so doing, do something illegal to get their proof. This is not right. But I've heard of police doing this kind of thing. They know of a criminal, and if they just had such and such proof, they could arrest them. They set up some kind of sting, and catch them, but when in court, they find that this was illegal to do and it can't be used against the crooks in the trial. But, the police just wanted them caught, so they did it. These guys who got arrested for trying to catch the ACORN employees did the same thing. Still wrong, but I can understand why they did it. I wouldn't have gone to those extremes, but I'm not them. ACORN is one of those government agencies that is deceitful and corrupt. They have been proven to abuse the system. (which is made up of some of our tax dollars). Hypocritical? No. They just want what's just and right. Liberals and progressives should aid in the investigation of what happened and why, rather than attempt to defend ACORN or remain silent.

Your reply to my post does not make any sense. NONE OF THESE MEN ARE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS!! THEY ARE JUST RUN OF THE MILL, ORDINARY RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS WHO WANT TO DESTROY ANYTHING PROGRESSIVE. The man who went undercover as a pimp with his undercover "prostitute" in order to trap ACORN in a "gotcha" moment was the SAME GUY who posed as a phone repairman and went into a UNITED STATE'S SENATOR'S OFFICE WITH THE INTENT OF TAPPING HER PHONES. No one was arrested in the ACORN trap, but he was arrested yesterday, along with his partners in crime, for attempting to commit a FELONY.

He claims he was just acting as a concerned citizen when he did his ACORN trap. He wanted to show that ACORN does not follow the law in making loans. An investigation of ACORN followed.

What he did in the senator's office is a FELONY. I'm not sure what you don't understand about this. He is a criminal and what he did is criminal and the hypocrisy is that he was portrayed as a hero and outstanding citizen when he did that to ACORN when what he is - is a common criminal. And you don't see the hypocrisy in that? He had no business being in the Senator's office or trying to tap her phones. Let's just see if the investigation shows any connections to him and his supporters on the right in all of this. Stay tuned.

Edited January 27, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

The man who did the ACORN trap and who tried to tap the phones of a U.S. Senator (A FELONY) - is:

JAMES O'KEEFE.

He was the darling of the republicans and they even proposed a resolution saying so. Now, those republicans are looking for cover. Read this update from dailykos:

What a difference a day makes. This time last week James O'Keefe was a hero to the extreme right for producing a hoax smearing ACORN and similar operations against other social service organizations. TPM now reports he was even in the employ of Moonie Times contributor and former Drudge clown Andrew Breitbart on the day of the break in. But after being caught directing three co-conspirators in clumsy mid-espionage bugging or mucking around with the phone system in a US Senator's office, the first wave of Republicans are running for cover:

O'Keefe was supposed to be the keynote speaker at a Salt Lake County GOP fundraiser on Feb. 4. But county GOP Chairman Thomas Wright told the Salt Lake Tribune: "We'll be announcing a new speaker shortly." ... Rep. Pete Olson, R-Tex., is on the defense for introducing a resolution honoring O'Keefe for exposing ACORN. He told the Hill that he doesn't condone unlawful behavior ... There were 31 cosponsors on that resolution, so you can expect Democratic challengers to use that resolution against their GOP opponents in this fall's midterm elections.

Via Media Matters, the 31 sponsors of the resolution which declared that accused felon James O'Keefe was "owed a debt of gratitude by the people of the United States" are all Republicans and, oddly, over a quarter of them serve districts in Texas: Todd Akin (R-MO2), Roscoe Bartlett (R-MD6), Joe Barton (R-TX6), Rob Bishop (R-UT1), Jo Bonner (R-AL1), John Boozman (R-AR3), Paul Broun (R-GA10), Henry Brown (R-SC1), John Campbell (R-CA48), John Carter (R-TX31), Howard Coble (R-NC6), Tom Cole (R-OK4), Michael Conaway (R-TX11), John Culberson (R-TX7), Mary Fallin (R-OK5), Trent Franks (R-AZ2), Louis Gohmert (R-TX1), Kay Granger (R-TX12), Ralph Hall (R-TX4), Jim Jordan (R-OH4), Steve King (R-IA5), John Kline (R-MN2), Doug Lamborn (R-CO5), Blaine Luetkemeyer (R-MO9), Daniel Lungren (R-CA3), Kenny Marchant (R-TX24), Joseph Pitts (R-PA16), Bill Posey (R-FL15), Phil Roe (R-TN1), John Shadegg (R-AZ3), and of course Jean Schmidt (R-OH2).

patty: "But, the police just wanted them caught, so they did it."

The police do not set up some random instrusion into someone's office on the off chance they will catch somebody committing a crime. There would be absolutely no point. They know that they must follow the letter of the law or their case will not hold up in court. If it won't hold up in court, they have wasted their time and the taxpayers money. So they are very careful about how they make arrests. They have to have a case. These nincompoops that entered the ACORN office and had a dialogue with some female employee to manufacture a case means nothing because they weren't able to prove any wrong doing by ACORN as far as I could tell. Their reason for doing what they did was simply to give ACORN some bad press and plant the seed of doubt about ACORN's supposed illegal activities.

patty: "ACORN is one of those government agencies that is deceitful and corrupt. They have been proven to abuse the system."

When was that proven? When were they taken to court? There's a good chance I've just missed it because I haven't really been following the case, but if anything was definitively proven, I've yet to learn of it.

A lot of people are convinced that the entire organization of ACORN is corrupt and the goof balls who were video taping the female employee are part of the reason. And some of the same people are involved in the Louisiana fiasco.

What they were caught doing in Louisiana is illegal. The police are not suppose to wire tap either. But the Bush administration thought that was okay - as long as they decided it was okay. So it isn't surprising that some of the folks who admired Bush would think it is okay.

Thanks for the post Cleo's. Maybe Richard Nixon is guiding the party from his perch high above, eh?

Seems like it's deja vous "all over again."

from pattygreen:ACORN is one of those government agencies that is deceitful and corrupt.

ACORN is not a government agency. It is a grassroots organization that receives federal funding just like so many others do, like faith based initiatives through various churches.

Oh yeah, I caught that way back and forgot to point that out Cleo's. ACORN is not a government agency.

They are not able to actually place voters on the rolls. The government does that. They merely set up ways to get people exposed and on a list to be registered which is, in theory, a very good thing. The larger the number of Americans who vote, the better we know how people really feel about issues and politicians.

As for the video showing the ACORN employee (was she really?) talking to the supposed pimp and hooker, did she offer to make them a loan? Did they receive any money?

I knew that they were an agency that received federal funds. I don't like the idea that they were only interested in getting people to vote if they were registering as democrats.

I also don't think that any agency that uses federal funds should be coaching people in ways to 'cheat' the government out of these funds, which is what they were doing.

The demographic where that they work probably results in more Democrats than Republicans registering, but there's no requirement that people they signed up had to register as Democrats.

patty: "I also don't think that any agency that uses federal funds should be coaching people in ways to 'cheat' the government out of these funds, which is what they were doing."

Hmmm? That's a strong statement. Can you back it up with proof?

The government suspended their funding to them, so that's proof enough for me. Had they been innocent in their dealings, they wouldn't have.

There were no arrests of ACORN employees unlike what happened in the senator's office when James O'Keefe and his 3 partners in crime were arrested.

The de-funding of ACORN was the result of the Obama hating feeding frenzy and those wishing to take political cover.

Let's see if those 31 in Congress who wanted to make James O'Keefe the next pulitizer prize winning journalist continue to support him. LOL

How true, Cleo's! And trust me, those who supported and praised O'Keefe's actions will go stone cold silent, but they will still be thrilled with his activities.

Just as many of them were when the doctor who performed abortions was gunned down.

There were no arrests of ACORN employees unlike what happened in the senator's office when James O'Keefe and his 3 partners in crime were arrested.

The de-funding of ACORN was the result of the Obama hating feeding frenzy and those wishing to take political cover.

Let's see if those 31 in Congress who wanted to make James O'Keefe the next pulitizer prize winning journalist continue to support him. LOL

I always err on the side of caution where my money is concerned. If there was only a slight chance that ACORN was abusing federal funds, they were wise to remove the funding, IMO.

The right wingers got what they wanted, whether it was justified or not. That's how they play the game.

Could you believe Obama's SOTU address? While only a fool would argue that Bush doesn’t deserve some criticism for spending money like a Democrat while in office, there’s absolutely no way to blame him for the approximately $12 trillion dollar deficit Obama has racked up in just one year’s time.

That’s right, twelve trillion dollars.