I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

It has been so funny to hear the right wingers rage on about the deficit and how horrible this president is because he's nothing but a socialist.

What, do they think we weren't paying attention when Bush wrecked us with his policies and the war? It's just one more political strategy that is lame and utterly obstructionist in nature. But then this has been the way they operated during the campaign and ever since the election. They don't have a conscience. They don't care if they are being hypocritical. They get caught every day in this same kind hypocritical political posturing. Anybody who is paying attention sees it for what it is.

And likewise, Sara Palin is the gift that just keeps on giving to the Democrats.

Edited February 8, 201016 yr by BJean

And when going back over some of the early posts, I'd like to add that when Bush was the president, Democrats did not refuse to support all of his proposals. They did reach across the aisle and they did give him support when they felt it was in the national interest.

The Republicans have simply refused to work with the Democrats on any level whatsoever. And lately the President has decided to support some of the proposed legislation that the Republicans were in favor of when Bush was president. But guess what? Now since the president has endorsed them, they are AGAINST them. They are a group of truly bad legislators and their lack of civility and respect in congress is utterly astonishing.

I'm pretty old and I've been involved in politics most of my life and these people take the cake for obstructing any kind of forward movement in this country.

You may hate the two-party system and it could be that in the future we will have more than two viable political parties. But right now, that's what we have.

Yes there are liars and creeps on both sides. I sure can't deny that. But right now, the right wingnuts of the Republican party are ruining that party for any moderate Republicans in the U.S. And they sure are proud of it.

And when going back over some of the early posts, I'd like to add that when Bush was the president, Democrats did not refuse to support all of his proposals. They did reach across the aisle and they did give him support when they felt it was in the national interest.

The Republicans have simply refused to work with the Democrats on any level whatsoever. And lately the President has decided to support some of the proposed legislation that the Republicans were in favor of when Bush was president. But guess what? Now since the president has endorsed them, they are AGAINST them. They are a group of truly bad legislators and their lack of civility and respect in congress is utterly astonishing.

I'm pretty old and I've been involved in politics most of my life and these people take the cake for obstructing any kind of forward movement in this country.

You may hate the two-party system and it could be that in the future we will have more than two viable political parties. But right now, that's what we have.

Yes there are liars and creeps on both sides. I sure can't deny that. But right now, the right wingnuts of the Republican party are ruining that party for any moderate Republicans in the U.S. And they sure are proud of it.

So true, BJean, but apparently being the party of no is working for them. They are looking forward to big gains in the 2010 election. Apparently doing nothing and being obstructionists is popular with people. Like Obama said, if all you want it popularity and care about poll numbers, then don't tackle the tough problems, and just do nothing.

That's right! Ted Kennedy was one of the hardest working and most effective senators that we've ever had. His opposition were sure to criticize him at every turn. He even collaborated with Republicans on legislation that we needed and the opposition still said he was a bad person.

If the Republicans continue to do nothing, they don't risk getting criticized for their proposed legislation. If they make up personal stuff about the president, people love it because they want to think someone in a position of power is doing something wrong.

It's true even with movie stars. The rags scream horrible headlines about them and it sure sells papers. You know it does because they pay hundreds of thousands in lost lawsuits when the headlined stories turn out to be false. Yet they continue to do it.

Like the "Swift Boat" ads and letters... people believed the very worst about Senator Kerry even though he was a decorated war hero because some wealthy folks took that smear campaign project on and it paid off for them handsomely - Kerry lost the race to the furthest thing from a war hero!

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

Now they're making up stuff about his policy agenda and calling him a "socialist". And then there are the "birthers" and others still making a mockery of the system. Yeah, people who love hearing bad stuff are sucked in by it all, but hopefully most Americans are going to be aware of the truth and will demonstrate it at the polls. I'm pretty much an optomist.

But I have to tell you, I spoke with my doctor Friday about proposed health care changes. She said the system definitely needs changing. She said she doesn't like anything that is on the table right now. I asked her what specifically she disagrees with. Oops! My doctor visit ended with my doctor saying that she loves John Stossel and she doesn't like the way Obama pushes all his policies through in such a sneaky fashion.

And this from a relatively well-educated woman!

Edited February 8, 201016 yr by BJean

I agree, BJean. There has always been a group of people who have never accepted Obama as president. They were fractuous. But then in August when the healthcare reform wasn't passed (as it should have been except for that dumba$$ Baucus let it linger) and the reps went home to townhall meetings, this fractuous group found their forum and then the big money people got to organizing them.

Now the group is a hodgepodge of all kind of people whose common denominator is hatred of Obama. They hide behind deficits, spending and other issues, but that's what it's all about.

And the republicans have seized upon this movement and fed off of it, but at the weekend tea party convention, Sarah Palin told them to tone down the rhetoric and they were told not to have all those hateful signs. Because they just look like a lot of angry, hate filled lunatics, which they are. Too late, that ship has already sailed. No putting that toothpaste back in the tube.

You seem to "need" to accentuate your reasoning for those who oppose your precious Obama's policies. Which is: "we "hate" him". Well, just like you've said so many times before: "Just say it enough, and you'll believe it." Could it possibly be because he is such a liar and a fake and an inexperienced individual with great speaking skills?

He calls it a 'jobs' bill. Why doesn't he just call it what it really is: Another stimulus spending spree! He calls it a 'jobs' bill cause he thinks we are so stupid that we wouldn't be able to see it for what it really is. This infuriates the people when someone insults their intelligence. My state got plenty of stimulus funds. The city of Waterbury, which is the next city over from where I live, is purchasing $64 million dollars worth of fleet city buses with some of the money. There buses are 12 years old, and they could use some new ones they say. Well, buying some buses didn't create ONE job!!!!! And, why should the people in Idaho have to pay for new buses in CT? If a city in CT needs buses, then they should raise the funds and purchase them. The federal government should not be spending "jobs" money on buses. This is just one example of the waste that these stupid bills are promoting. Wouldn't it have been better to have opened a private business of some kind that could employ 10-15 people for the next 64 years at a million dollars a year in salaries for them? The $64 million dollars wasted on some buses for the city of Waterbury where the people don't use bus transportation much. I know. I've seen the buses and the people who ride them. Sometimes there is only one or two people on a bus, if that. Talk about wasteful spending! And if it's happening in my state, you can be sure it's happening in every state. The last stimulus giveaway only brought the unemployment rate up higher.

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can. Sorry for you, but the far left liberal fanatics and their agenda is NOT what the American people want! And you know it, and you see it, and it is ticking you off because it's true. You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better. Personally, I don't care. I'm just glad that these progressives are not going to be able to run with their plans for this great country of ours. I see many dems ousted in November and a new president in 2012! Hooray! Obama has got to be Thee worst president we have ever had in this country. I will be glad to see him go. Did I forget to mention that it's all because I have hatred in my heart for him and want to see him fail? (rolling eyes)

The Republicans are still reeling from their loss to Obama. Especially since their dirty, nasty politics has paid off so well in the past. Fortunately Obama had his ducks in a row and was able to debunk the lies and get the truth out during the campaign.

You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can. Sorry for you, but the far left liberal fanatics and their agenda is NOT what the American people want! And you know it, and you see it, and it is ticking you off because it's true. You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better. Personally, I don't care. I'm just glad that these progressives are not going to be able to run with their plans for this great country of ours. I see many dems ousted in November and a new president in 2012! Hooray! Obama has got to be Thee worst president we have ever had in this country. I will be glad to see him go. Did I forget to mention that it's all because I have hatred in my heart for him and want to see him fail? (rolling eyes)

Well, the "experienced" (so you say), but stupid and poorly spoken bush ran this country into the ground and it will take us a long time to dig our way out of it. Those of you on the right can try to re-write history but you can't. And historians will remember bush for being one of the worst presidents of our time.

Obama is head and shoulders above any of the republicans currently serving this country in any capacity. He is smart, level-headed, reasonable and keeps his cool.

When he gave a major smack down to the republicans at their GOP retreat that was televized, it showed american who really had a grasp of our problems. Now he has challenged the republicans to discuss, ON TV, their healthcare ideas. I sure want to see that (it will probably involve a tax cut, somehow, as that is their only solution.) I say let's televise all the no votes by the republicans and their filibusters - show america how the party of no helps solves the problems.

The jobs bill is paid back TARP money that will go to banks for loans to small businesses (which they need) and for tax cuts of $6000 for each new employee they hire.(which they also say they need).

Those new buses had to come from somewhere. They didn't hatch out of an egg. The manufacturer of the buses might have hired more workers. So it increased the manufacturer's business. Multiply that by all the stimulus money that is being used across the country.

You still don't understand the concept of tax money that goes to DC and then is distributed via your congressman. That is his/her job. To go to DC and bring money back to his/her district. It's federal money. States and local entities get these dollars, in ADDITION to money they raise. But they can't possibly pay for all the things they need with local taxes only.

I'm just sitting back, though, and having a good laugh at the "leader" of the tea party - Sarah Palin, who talks to her hand. Or rather, reads from her hand. And this from the woman who has made smart mouthed comments about Pres. Obama reading from the telepromter. What a hypocrite!!! But then, what else do they have other than hypocrisy???

I disproved the panic about the deficits with the above post by Paul Krugman.

Now, the following (from dailykos) shows with charts and graphs the difference between bush and Pres. Obama.

For those who think bush's policies don't matter anymore. Yeah, they do. Every day we're trying to climb out of the hole he put us in. And it's going to take years.

Edited February 9, 201016 yr by Cleo's Mom

patty's response to one of my posts: "You can call it "hatred" if it makes you feel better."

I never used that word and would appreciate it if you wouldn't give the impression that I did.

patty: "You're the one who is reeling right now because you can forsee the future of your party just as clearly as the rest of us can."

I don't believe you know what you're talking about. You're so immersed in the kool aid, you're a little out of touch. Your party won a huge victory in Mass. But that may or may not tell us the feelings of the majority of the voters in this country. It definitely sent a message but you could be reading something into the message that just wasn't there.

I haven't made any claims at all about the country supporting an "extreme left wing agenda." I have made claims about the wacko right wing extremists. And those claims are true enough and I'm not bringing anything to light here that people can't see for themselves.

It's interesting that you claim that the majority of Americans support your boys on the hill, but we'll just have to wait and see. Just because you claim that it is so, certainly doesn't make it so and lots of Americans haven't made up their minds yet about the president, his policies, the behavior of congress or how they'll vote in the future.

Where's this crystal ball you're looking at? Oh yeah, Fox news and Glenn Beck and all the gang. They and your Republican newspaper have you convinced that Americans all agee with them. But like it or not, the right wing extremist media hasn't gone so far as to convince everyone that all the Democrats are dirty rotten socialists. But don't take my word for it, just wait and see like the rest of us.

And for the record, I haven't "claimed" anything about people supporting a far left wing agenda.

Read the graphs Cleo's posted and weep, Obama opponents.

I thought everyone snowed in, digging themselves out and suffering from cabin fever could use a good laugh:

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Bryan Fotographer at Houston Press brings us the above awesomeness from Sarah Palin's rally for Rick Perry in Houston, along with the following caption:

The "Get a brain, morans" sign guy must have been busy on Sunday.

Way to go, "Homescholers".

More laughs for the snow weary :thumbup:

GOP Ransom Note

On Sunday, President Obama invited Republicans to a televised, open conversation on health care reform--just the type of conversation they've been demanding for weeks.

How did the GOP respond? With something closer to a ransom note than an RSVP. We've got a copy of the "original" list of the GOP's demands to Obama—check it out. And if you like it, use the buttons below to share with your friends.

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from moveon.org

How arrogant of you to decide what God would say about our government deficits. You speak for him now?

Yes. God has given all his children the right to speak for him. We are his ambassadors. The bible says so. It is not arrogant at all to speak God's words. Anyone can know what God would say on a subject by reading his words. If he says that 'debt' is wrong, and to 'owe no man anything', then it is safe to believe that he would want the country to get out of debt before they spend anything more and go further into debt.

I recall that he stayed out of local politics and said to give unto Caesar...

Whether he stayed out of politics or not doesn't matter. He tells us how to differentiate between what is right and what is wrong.

You post bible quotes all the time when they suit you. While you want the government to be involved in certain parts of what the bible says (like homosexuality and abortion) but you don't want the government to be involved in what it says about helping the poor.

LAWS are not in the same catagory as GIVING. Laws need to be made for the safety and social governing of mankind. Giving is required of each person as he or she seems fit. "God loves a cheerful giver." Government can not regulate what each individual desires to 'give' of their own heart. And government should not take what they feel is appropriate from the people and do our giving for us.

When anyone quotes those passages you are quick to point out that it doesn't mean government - oh, no - it means family.

Well, where does it say in the bible that our government should be involved in making laws against gays or abortion? It doesn't - you just decide that for these issues it's time for the government to step in. Then you're okay with government.

You're also okay with the government giving to corporations.

No, I'm not. That's just what you assume.

Corporate welfare. Did you read my lengthy post about corporate welfare? Why don't you rail against THAT? At least with welfare to people you are helping the least among us, but with corporate welfare you are just making the rich richer.

You like to paint liberals out as sinners who just want to be free to continue to be immoral. I am very insulted by that. I am a very moral person. I have already pointed out the many, many republican/conservative leaders who have engaged in immoral behavior, while preaching the opposite. HYPOCRITES!

So what. I've already commented on that. Everyone does wrong.

People have free will and a conscience and will have to live with both regarding their choices in life. You want to legislate what are sins and what is not. That's the job of the religious community, not the government.

Not true. You just think so because abortion and homosexuality are not on your list of sins (wrong doings). Murder, stealing, lying.... these are probably on your list, so they are okay with you to regulate with laws. Well, they are also biblical principles, just ones you agree with. Biblical principles like abortion and homosexuality. We need a guideline (the bible) to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Without it, there will be chaos. If a man feels that lying is okay, then when he gets on the witness stand in court, he can lie and whose to say he can't. If we can't make it a law, then anyone will be able to lie and suffer no consequence for it. It is the same with every issue out there.

Edited February 10, 201016 yr by pattygreen

[bjean quote] It seems to me that people who want the government to be involved in the control of our religious lives would do well to look at countries where they are ruled by a particular religious doctine. I can't name one where the people and country are better off because of it.

That's because these people are also forced to 'worship' and 'believe' in the god of those nations. In America, we will never force anyone to believe in the Christian God or faith that this nation was founded on. Here we are free to have that choice. I am in total agreement with that. I do not want any one church denomination to become the rule in this country. Nor do I want any religion to be set up as the governing religion. I like the way this country has set things up so that the people who live here have the say in what becomes law or not. What I don't like is the way some who are in the minority feel that they can push christianity out of the picture entirely. They have been fighting to keep all the things that this country was founded upon and holds dear out of the public forum.