I am probably going to open a whole new can worms here. I might regret opening later, but some of the topics being discussed really got me thinking about things. One of the things said that really kind of got me going on this was:

Pattygreen: Christians (usually conservative republicans) for the most part try to live moral, virtuous, nonsinful lives.

I am not a Christian and I live a moral, virtuous, and for the most part nonsinful life. I know several people who live the same, and are not Christian, and have conservative beliefs.

Cleo's Mom: First of all, "conservative republican" is redundant, because they are all conservative. I don't think there are any moderate republicans left particularly among those elected to office.

However, I just wonder if it is MORAL to mislead or outright lie, because listen to what these conservative republicans have said:

Dana Perino said on Fox: We did not have a domestic attack during bush's administration.

A month later Mary Matalin said: bush inherited 9/11 from Clinton.

Yesterday, Rudy Giuliani said that we never had a domestic attack under bush but we had one under Obama.

Now, I ask you - do these people think the American public is really that stupid? Apparently. Those on the right just make things up and keep repeating it. And when they repeat it often enough eventually some people begin to believe it.

They reduce things to some emotional, hate filled sound bite: death panels, obamacare, socialism, hitler, nazi.

This is because they are unable to engage in meaningful, intelligent, fact-based discussions. Maybe they don't want to do that because they don't have the facts on their side.

First I am a moderate Republican. I do tend to lean a little more to the right, but on some issues I lean to the left. Some things I can lean pretty right, and others I lean pretty far left. It really depends on the issue. I'd like to think that would make me moderate. I know many people who are moderate Republicans also. So we are still out there. There are some politicians who are still moderate also.

Second just because you are a Republican does not mean that you can not have a intelligent, meaningful, fact-based conversation. That is like saying liberals have their heads in clouds and live in fantasy nerf world filled with rainbows and butterflies.

Both sides sling mud back and forth. Both sides have their hate filled idiots. Both sides have their good and bad points. Both sides LIE, LIE, and LIE some more.

I get so sick and tired of hearing about how the Republicans have screwed everything up...I mean really they did it all alone.....no help from the left at all???

I personally feel that if you lean too far left or right you can't have a very grip on reality, and when our politicans lean too far left or right it's not good for our country either way. I hope someday too see more moderate politicans in office.

Has anyone besides me questioned if we are reverting to a feudal society with the corporations being the manor lords this time? We have the Republican party who is conducting a huge media campaign to convince average people to vote against their own interests, and its working. They do it buy hiring these PR firms that can reduce everything to a soundbite that incites, produces fear and/or hate. And yes, it's working very well. Just look at the tea party movement which is financed by well-funded right wing groups. I read somewhere that these PR firms could have poor people protesting capital gains taxes.

The campaign is so large that instead of buying time on existing stations they have launched the Fox Broadcasting Company, not just the news channel but a whole bunch of channels to entertain us with trivial entertainment to keep us from doing any thinking for ourselves. Look at the lineup on Fox's channels and see the list of pure drivel that is offered.

First they use religion, "Liberals don't believe in god so if you want to go to heaven you have to be a Republican!" (This tactic was also used during the middle ages to keep people on the feudal farm.) Using religion to promote your agenda is an old trick. Because it makes it difficult for the opposing side to criticize. Like bush saying God told him to invade Iraq. I believe that to be a bold faced lie, but it would be difficult for journalists to say so.

Next, its immigration, makes it us against them.

That's the whole wedge issues - gays, immigrants, abortion. It used to be the blacks who were blamed for taking "white" jobs, now they blame the Mexicans.

Finally, tie them to their jobs with corporate health care. Large corporations should be jumping for joy for the government to provide health care to workers. Large corporations pay billions of dollars every year to provide health care for workers, if it was available from a public option the corporations could keep that money as profit. So if they could keep billions as profit why do they want to keep providing health care? Because it gives them indentured servants. If you have a child with a health problem you cannot buy health care, therefor you have to keep your current job. You cannot go and open a small business and become a competitor. That's right. And not only does health care keep them at their current job, but the job market right now does too - which actually for the last 30 years - has been to the employers benefit. They started downsizing then, making the remaining employees work harder. Productivity has gone up while real wages have gone down.

Its all about control...... So go get your sickle and get to work reaping the wheat!

The republicans are emboldened by the one election of Scott Brown - even though he has distanced himself from both the teabaggers and the republican party. He did not mention the republican party when running or in his acceptance speech. Should the mean-spirited republicans take control of the congress we will go back to the failed policies of bush. Heaven help us all!!!

Who people listen to is telling. Here's your lying Glenn Beck:

from Arianna Huffington: (emphasis mine)

Read More: Abc This Week , Ailes Fox News , Ailes Huffington , Beck White House , Fox News Beck , Glenn Beck , Glenn Beck Arianna , Glenn Beck Arianna Huffington , Paul Krugman , Roger Ailes , Media News

Following up on my back and forth with Roger Ailes yesterday on ABC's This Week, Glenn Beck went on his radio show today and attacked what I'd said about him -- and, in the process, ended up spewing a lot more misinformation.

Beck's key point of contention was over my assertion that he had warned people that they were in danger of being "slaughtered" by the Obama administration and its friends.

Ailes had insisted that Beck had been "talking about Hitler and Stalin slaughtering people, so I think he was probably accurate." Beck and his on-air partners, executive producer and head writer "Stu" Burguiere and contributing editor Pat Gray, tried to stick with that story. Press the play button below to listen and click here for the transcript.

BECK: I don't even know if I've ever used the word "slaughtered." And if I used the word "slaughtered," if it wasn't in a context of Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, it was in the idea that the truth is being slaughtered by this administration... not saying that this administration is going to slaughter anyone.

GRAY: Never, never.

Unfortunately for Ailes, Beck, and Gray -- but fortunately for fans of facts, reality, and the truth -- we live in the era of DVRs, YouTube, and embeddable video. And what Beck actually said is recorded for posterity.

Here is a rant Beck delivered on November 3, 2009 about SEIU's Andy Stern and the Obama administration (the "slaughtered" remark is at 9:30):

And here's the transcript:

BECK: I told you yesterday,

buckle up your seatbelt, America.

Find the exit -- there's one here, here, and here. Find the exit closest to you and

prepare for a crash landing

. Because this plane is coming down,

because the pilot is intentionally steering it into the trees!

Most likely, it'll happen sometime after Christmas. You're gonna see this economy come up -- we're already seeing it, and now it's gonna start coming back down again. And when you see the effects of what they're doing to the economy, remember these words: We will survive. No -- we'll do better than survive, we will thrive. As long as these people are not in control.

They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered!

Not Stalin. Not Hitler. Not Mao. Not "the truth" being slaughtered. YOU. "They are taking YOU to a place to be slaughtered."

Secret codes, being led to slaughter? And these people get paid for this? That says a lot about Fox news.

Oh brother!!!! And I bet you thought when he started out saying "buckle up your seat belt, America" He meant a literal seat belt. Or did he mean "get ready?" And the next line, when he said, "Prepare for a crash landing..." He meant that Obama would get his airplane license and there would be a real crash somewhere. instead of the economy crashing. (have you never heard of an analogy?) And I bet when he said "The pilot will steer it into the trees" he meant a literal tree, and not the economy spiraling down and crashing. And I bet when he said "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered" He meant Obama will literally slaughter us with a knife, like they do cows on the farm for consumption, instead of what he really meant which was our economy and the financial stability of the people is being ruined by this group of people in the WH.

That's the problem with you liberals. everything is sooo literal when it suits you. Face it. The majority of Americans do NOT think like you do. The ratings on your liberal news shows prove that. FOX is the #1 trusted news station in America, and for good reason. If you feel that the majority of the people in this country are wrong and you, the minority, are right in the way you think, then you are like Obama in a way, with your arrogance.

Look up todays airing of Glenn Beck and you will see how he defended what that idiot had to say about him and how she twisted what he said and tried to make him out to be hateful and spreading fear to the people. You know, give us humans a little credit. We actually CAN think for ourselves and form our own opinions. No one, but the opposing view of course, saw anything remotely wrong with anything that he said. The contents of what he spoke on was the economy, and what he said was very true.

First they use religion, "Liberals don't believe in god so if you want to go to heaven you have to be a Republican!"

Can you back that up with proof? I have never heard any republican or anyone for that matter, say that.

Oh brother!!!! And I bet you thought when he started out saying "buckle up your seat belt, America" He meant a literal seat belt. Or did he mean "get ready?" And the next line, when he said, "Prepare for a crash landing..." He meant that Obama would get his airplane license and there would be a real crash somewhere. instead of the economy crashing. (have you never heard of an analogy?) And I bet when he said "The pilot will steer it into the trees" he meant a literal tree, and not the economy spiraling down and crashing. And I bet when he said "They are taking you to a place to be slaughtered" He meant Obama will literally slaughter us with a knife, like they do cows on the farm for consumption, instead of what he really meant which was our economy and the financial stability of the people is being ruined by this group of people in the WH.

That's the problem with you liberals. everything is sooo literal when it suits you. Face it. The majority of Americans do NOT think like you do. The ratings on your liberal news shows prove that. FOX is the #1 trusted news station in America, and for good reason. If you feel that the majority of the people in this country are wrong and you, the minority, are right in the way you think, then you are like Obama in a way, with your arrogance.

More people watched Fox news in 2008, too, but Obama and the democrats won big time. I have said this before, but it bears repeating: The numbers who watch Fox do not translate into the voting booth. Obviously, the majority of americans do not watch any of the cable tv news.

Look up todays airing of Glenn Beck and you will see how he defended what that idiot had to say about him and how she twisted what he said and tried to make him out to be hateful and spreading fear to the people. You know, give us humans a little credit. We actually CAN think for ourselves and form our own opinions. No one, but the opposing view of course, saw anything remotely wrong with anything that he said. The contents of what he spoke on was the economy, and what he said was very true.

What, nothing to say about idiot Beck's secret code that he misspelled? Hmmmm. I guess he was just brushing up on his chalkboard skills and didn't really mean it.

What, nothing to say about idiot Beck's secret code that he misspelled? Hmmmm. I guess he was just brushing up on his chalkboard skills and didn't really mean it.

I can't comment on it because I know nothing about it. I'll try to look into that show. Maybe it's taped somewhere.

More people watched Fox news in 2008, too, but Obama and the democrats won big time. I have said this before, but it bears repeating: The numbers who watch Fox do not translate into the voting booth.

This is just my opinion of course, but I believe that the only reason that Obama won the election was because he was black. The American people, the younger generation especially and the black people, came out in droves to the election because they wanted to be a part of history. I, myself, wished that McCain were a black man. I would have loved to vote for a black man to hold that seat and have been proud of it. It certainly wasn't because he had the experience or know how to do the job, that's for sure. He stinks big time as a president. He has lied soooo many times to us and he holds no promises true, and he is spending us into oblivion where there will be no possible way to return from the debt.:frown:

I can't comment on it because I know nothing about it. I'll try to look into that show. Maybe it's taped somewhere.

More people watched Fox news in 2008, too, but Obama and the democrats won big time. I have said this before, but it bears repeating: The numbers who watch Fox do not translate into the voting booth.

This is just my opinion of course, but I believe that the only reason that Obama won the election was because he was black. The American people, the younger generation especially and the black people, came out in droves to the election because they wanted to be a part of history. I, myself, wished that McCain were a black man. I would have loved to vote for a black man to hold that seat and have been proud of it. It certainly wasn't because he had the experience or know how to do the job, that's for sure. He stinks big time as a president. He has lied soooo many times to us and he holds no promises true, and he is spending us into oblivion where there will be no possible way to return from the debt.

It is just your opinion because the facts don't back it up as to who voted for Obama. Yes, he got the black and hispanic vote. But he won because white people voted for him. Period. McCain got the white male vote, the christian right vote (also mostly white) and the wealthy vote. And the southern vote. Obama got everyone else.

Since you have stated that you were not politically observant during bush, I suggest you do some research about the lies of his administration. There are no shortage of books written on the subject.

All politicians promise things they can't deliver on. Obama thought he could get healthcare passed until the liars on the right hijacked it. I have already posted those lies many times. He said he would get us out of Iraq and he is. The marines have left. The rest will be gone next year.

He promised he would keep the banks from going into a complete free fall and he did. And most of the banks have paid back the money with interest.

He said there would be tranparency and he has opened up the white house visitor logs. He had the beginning of the healthcare debate on c-span but they it was logistically not possible when they broke up into many committees and met at different times in different places.

But he did have his meeting televised with the GOP at their retreat. Now, that was great.

I want all the votes in the senate and house to be televised and all the filibusters by the GOP to be televised too. You should support that because it's transparent.

Obama said he would stop torture and he did. He said he would end don't ask don't tell and he started the ball rolling there, too.

He would be able to get more done if the republicans wouldn't threaten to filibuster everything - by the way 121 times last year - a record!! I would definitely let them filibuster and let all of america see it.

Under his administration we captured twice as many terrorists than bush did. Also, the only terrorist who were released from Gitmo to their homeland and then re-engaged in terrorism were RELEASED BY BUSH.

So, I see Obama as doing the best job he can with the mess bush left him to clean up.

First they use religion, "Liberals don't believe in god so if you want to go to heaven you have to be a Republican!"

Can you back that up with proof? I have never heard any republican or anyone for that matter, say that.

"From a Christian's perspective, conservatives are more moral than liberals." In case you dont recoginise this quote, it was from you. 01-14-2010, 10:48 AM

Also:

"It is a clarion call, a flashing neon sign warning people that liberalism is the opposition party to God." Ann Coulter

I can't comment on it because I know nothing about it. I'll try to look into that show. Maybe it's taped somewhere.

It is just your opinion because the facts don't back it up as to who voted for Obama. Yes, he got the black and hispanic vote. But he won because white people voted for him. Period. McCain got the white male vote, the christian right vote (also mostly white) and the wealthy vote. And the southern vote. Obama got everyone else.

I didn't say he didn't get white votes. He won because he was black, and even the white people as well as everyone else wanted a black man to be in the presidency. He could have been a black mickey mouse and he would have won. The american people are ready to have someone of color rule here. We want the seperation of race to be evident here.

Since you have stated that you were not politically observant during bush, I suggest you do some research about the lies of his administration. There are no shortage of books written on the subject

I don't care about what he has done. You can't change the past, you can only change the here and now. I know you want to be able to compare Obama's record with his, but it doesn't matter to me. He could have lied with every other sentence and what am I to do about it NOW? Nothing. Onbama's lies are what is of relevence now.

All politicians promise things they can't deliver on. Obama thought he could get healthcare passed until the liars on the right hijacked it. I have already posted those lies many times. He said he would get us out of Iraq and he is. The marines have left. The rest will be gone next year.

The right did no such thing. The dems had the power to pass it, and they turned on each other. You can't blame the other party for your own parties doing.

He promised he would keep the banks from going into a complete free fall and he did. And most of the banks have paid back the money with interest.

He said there would be tranparency and he has opened up the white house visitor logs. He had the beginning of the healthcare debate on c-span but they it was logistically not possible when they broke up into many committees and met at different times in different places.

But he did have his meeting televised with the GOP at their retreat. Now, that was great.

I want all the votes in the senate and house to be televised and all the filibusters by the GOP to be televised too. You should support that because it's transparent.

Obama said he would stop torture and he did. He said he would end don't ask don't tell and he started the ball rolling there, too.

He would be able to get more done if the republicans wouldn't threaten to filibuster everything - by the way 121 times last year - a record!! I would definitely let them filibuster and let all of america see it.

Under his administration we captured twice as many terrorists than bush did. Also, the only terrorist who were released from Gitmo to their homeland and then re-engaged in terrorism were RELEASED BY BUSH.

So, I see Obama as doing the best job he can with the mess bush left him to clean up.

I see it differently. Obama is allowing terrorists of war to be tried as civilians with all the rights of civilians, and they are our countries enemies of War. Why? What is the reason for it. He knows that the people are against it, and that it will cost millions to do it, yet he wants it done here rather than in military tribunals. He needs to listen to the people. He wants to close guantanimo bay. Why? I have yet to hear the reasons for doing it.

"From a Christian's perspective, conservatives are more moral than liberals." In case you dont recoginise this quote, it was from you. 01-14-2010, 10:48 AM

Also:

"It is a clarion call, a flashing neon sign warning people that liberalism is the opposition party to God." Ann Coulter

Saying that conservatives are more moral than liberals is a far cry from saying that you have to be a republican in order to go to heaven.

Maybe you don't understand what it takes to enter Heaven. It is not your good or bad deeds that determine your destination. It is your belief in Jesus to bring you there because you can not get there without him.(which is faith)

So, whether you are 'moral' enough, or not, will not be the deciding factor for mankind. Mainly because there is noone who can be moral enough.

When Ann C. said that liberalism is the opposition to God, I truly understand what she is saying. Liberals oppose many of the things that God deems right and wrong. I can name a few. Homosexuality, abortion, taking from the rich to give to the poor, etc. She did not say that it will keep them out of Heaven. Our sins are forgiven if we have faith in God and believe in his Son and the sacrifice he made for us, and she knows this as well I'm sure.

I can't think of where in the bible it says God deems taking from the rich to give to the poor, wrong.

Can you remind me?

I see it differently. Obama is allowing terrorists of war to be tried as civilians with all the rights of civilians, and they are our countries enemies of War. Why? What is the reason for it. He knows that the people are against it, and that it will cost millions to do it, yet he wants it done here rather than in military tribunals. He needs to listen to the people. He wants to close guantanimo bay. Why? I have yet to hear the reasons for doing it.

Of course you see it differently because you see it through the lens of idiots like Glenn Beck.

REPUBLICAN HYPOCRISY ALERT!!! Bush tried terrorists in civilian court and they were found guilty and are in prison. Haven't escaped. But all done under the radar. No big media scrutiny.

Here's what he said:

Bush In 2006: Terrorists Should Be “Tried In Courts Here In The U.S.”

With Republicans hammering the Obama administration for trying suspected 9/11 terrorists in a New York court, a Democrat points out that in 2006, George W. Bush seemed to say outright that terrorists should be “tried in courts here in the United States.”

There was no outcry at the time.

In a news conference on June 9th, 2006, Bush described his discussions with the prime minister of Denmark over the fate of Gitmo detainees this way:

I assured him that we would like to end the Guantanamo. We’d like it to be empty. And we’re now in the process of working with countries to repatriate people.

But there are some that, if put out on the streets, would create grave harm to American citizens and other citizens of the world. And, therefore, I believe they ought to be tried in courts here in the United States. We will file such court claims once the Supreme Court makes its decision as to whether or not — as to the proper venue for these trials. And we’re waiting on our Supreme Court to act.

Now, however, because it's OBAMA, well that's different. The republicans have to be against it. I guess they were FOR civilian trials of terrorists before they were AGAINST it.

And as for Gitmo - because of the torture (under bush) that took place there, it is a great recruitment tool for Al Qaeda. Along with that whole Abu Ghraib thing. Closing it would take that away from the terrorists.

And let's not forget that BUSH released many terrorists from Gitmo to their native countries to be re-entered into it after going through a program. Many of these have turned around and re-joined the terrorists. Now, why didn't we hear about this from the liberal media? And get the scrutiny that Obama is getting?

Because bush got a pass and Obama doesn't.

From Pattygreen - quote:

I didn't say he didn't get white votes. He won because he was black, and even the white people as well as everyone else wanted a black man to be in the presidency. He could have been a black mickey mouse and he would have won. The american people are ready to have someone of color rule here. We want the seperation of race to be evident here.

You have it completely backward. White people voted for Obama DESPITE the fact that he was black. They voted for him because he wasn't bush. They didn't care what color he was. I do believe that the black people voted for him because he is black, but they did not make up the majority of those who voted for him. The whites did.

For those who supported Clinton and for whom race did matter - many of those switched to McCain.

I worked for both the Clinton and Obama campaigns and I can tell you that race was not a factor. Just the fact that he wasn't bush and he had brains and could speak intelligently and supported the liberal agenda was enough to energize the base.

Of course you see it differently because you see it through the lens of idiots like Glenn Beck.

REPUBLICAN HYPOCRISY ALERT!!! Bush tried terrorists in civilian court and they were found guilty and are in prison. Haven't escaped. But all done under the radar. No big media scrutiny.

Here's what he said:

Bush In 2006: Terrorists Should Be “Tried In Courts Here In The U.S.”

With Republicans hammering the Obama administration for trying suspected 9/11 terrorists in a New York court, a Democrat points out that in 2006, George W. Bush seemed to say outright that terrorists should be “tried in courts here in the United States.”

There was no outcry at the time.

In a news conference on June 9th, 2006, Bush described his discussions with the prime minister of Denmark over the fate of Gitmo detainees this way:

I assured him that we would like to end the Guantanamo. We’d like it to be empty. And we’re now in the process of working with countries to repatriate people.

But there are some that, if put out on the streets, would create grave harm to American citizens and other citizens of the world. And, therefore, I believe they ought to be tried in courts here in the United States. We will file such court claims once the Supreme Court makes its decision as to whether or not — as to the proper venue for these trials. And we’re waiting on our Supreme Court to act.

Now, however, because it's OBAMA, well that's different. The republicans have to be against it. I guess they were FOR civilian trials of terrorists before they were AGAINST it.

And as for Gitmo - because of the torture (under bush) that took place there, it is a great recruitment tool for Al Qaeda. Along with that whole Abu Ghraib thing. Closing it would take that away from the terrorists.

And let's not forget that BUSH released many terrorists from Gitmo to their native countries to be re-entered into it after going through a program. Many of these have turned around and re-joined the terrorists. Now, why didn't we hear about this from the liberal media? And get the scrutiny that Obama is getting?

Because bush got a pass and Obama doesn't.

I believe that Bush got a pass on alot of things that he did because people were not paying as close attention as they are now. Just because the American people have awakened themselves to Washington, and are now interested in the happenings there (mostly due to the effects the economy is having on everyone) doesn't mean we should ignore what Obama is doing as well, like we did with Bush. Since Obama is doing alot more of the same as Bush did, that's all the more reason to put a stop to it! You need to get off your blind, infatuated 'Love" for the man and see what he is actually doing to our nation. You need to stop comparing him to Bush and get over that. Obama is in office now and what he does is relevent, not what Bush did or didn't do. Shame on Bush if he didn't do things proper. What can we say or do about it now? Let's focus on Obama and his administration and tackle him and his agenda.

From Pattygreen - quote:

I didn't say he didn't get white votes. He won because he was black, and even the white people as well as everyone else wanted a black man to be in the presidency. He could have been a black mickey mouse and he would have won. The american people are ready to have someone of color rule here. We want the seperation of race to be evident here.

You have it completely backward. White people voted for Obama DESPITE the fact that he was black. They voted for him because he wasn't bush. They didn't care what color he was. I do believe that the black people voted for him because he is black, but they did not make up the majority of those who voted for him. The whites did.

For those who supported Clinton and for whom race did matter - many of those switched to McCain.

I worked for both the Clinton and Obama campaigns and I can tell you that race was not a factor. Just the fact that he wasn't bush and he had brains and could speak intelligently and supported the liberal agenda was enough to energize the base.

This youtube shows exactly how Obama got elected. You need to view it all to get the real effects of it.

Edited February 3, 201016 yr by pattygreen

All that youtube video is is an advertisemet to sell a dvd @ Media Malpractice How Obama Got Elected and Palin Was Targeted anybody can make a youtube that doesnt make it real. Once again its all about the money, somebody trying to sell something.