BJean

If there is a spontaneous abortion, it is also included in the natural order of things. If there is a surgical abortion, then there is still nothing you can do to stop a woman who is ill-equipped, for whatever reason, to continue the development of that fertilized egg. I would much rather a woman would choose to have a procedure (that is simple and relatively painless to everyone involved) to stop the development of a fertilized egg, if the woman so ill-equipped, either emotionally or physically, that she is unable to support the development of a baby. You think adoption is the answer. I think adoption could be the answer, but I believe that it is not the answer for everyone.

fod-her. You know, fod her. Unlike mud her. Guess mud her sounds a little nastier now that you bring it up.

gadget: "Absolutely right. Mothers should not be making death decisions for other people -- in this case, their offspring. " So at least we agree on one thing - offspring belong to "their" parents. They are not products of the world. They have creators and those who are charged with the responsibility of literally bringing them to life, if they so choose. It's the natural order of things. You can't change it by intervening in some way. You can be there to catch any unwanted babies to give them a home, once they are born. But you can't police every uterus in the world and demand that a fertilized egg be developed into a baby. You just can't. Even if you make a convincing argument that you should be able to decide what every woman should choose in every case of pregnancy in the world, you can't change mother nature. Mother nature says the woman is the decider, that's why she gave her the sole responsibility to take care of this business. You're trying to take that away from women, but you can't, no matter what you do. (Short of imprisoning women and monitoring them 24/7.)

Heh, heh, heh, you said "fodder"...

It's unfortunate that babies must be conceived, grow and be nurtured inside a woman's womb? I find that to be a very strange statement and one that sounds very self-serving in this debate. What would your ultimate wish list include? That all fertilized eggs and all frozen embryos be turned over to you to ensure that they survive gestation and become living, breathing fully developed babies? That would make you happy in your perfect world? In a perfect world, there would be no rape. In a perfect world, there would be no incest. In a perfect world, there would be no deformities or malfunctioning female anatomical parts. There would be no women who are too fragile, either physically or mentally to carry a baby to term. In a perfect world, every woman would be a fully-equipped baby making machine, turning them out on a regular basis. At least in your perfect world. Well, this is the furthest thing from a perfect world. And women are not perfect. And there are rapists and there are abusers and there are hideous deformities and genetic disorders. In a perfect world, we wouldn't be having this debate. You'd be taking care of your brood and I'd be tending to mine and we'd be wishing each other the highest order of peace, happiness and tranquility. This is the furthest thing from a perfect world. You're not perfect and neither am I. Neither of us is perfect enough to make life and death decisions for other people. Please know that no matter how many times you declare that a woman is a killer if she has an abortion, I will rebut that with as much strength as I have. You are not a perfect person with all the undisputable truths that are needed to make a declaration like that.

As for the baby bartering business, it is hardly a delusional concept. And if you really are as involved in the anti-choice movement and involved in helping to place unwanted babies, then you know as well as I that there are people who are in the baby selling business. For you to pretend otherwise is assinine.

gadget: "That says it all. You're damned right about that. I am the only person who has the rights to my body and every cell that my body produces. Who else has the rights to my cellular structure and everything within its' walls? And I think I know your answer and that would make you a very mistaken person.

gadget: "If you abuse or try to kill your child at any point during his or her post-uterine life, the government will intervene, and rightfully so, to protect the basic rights of that child." Right on! Relevant phrase being "post-uterine life". I have no quarrel with the government getting involved in the protection of a child. But I do have a quarrel with the government getting its' grubby little hands on my uterus and anything contained within that package of MINE.

A fetus is not a person. That's why the government has no say in the conception or ban of conception or other controls over conception of children. Do you prefer the way it is in some countries where the government tells it's citizens whether they can have babies and/or what sex they are allowed to have? As far as I am concerned what you want it no different. And are you Delusional much? Yes, indeed. No question about it. Athough you didn't have to spell it out for us. But thanks.

gadget, I own my child. It is mine and no one elses. When it is in my womb, it is as much a part of me as my skin and bones. When I become pregnant against my wishes, and when I cannot bear to bring a child into the world, it is my decision how to handle it. You are not qualified to intervene and try to control me and my decisions; my child is totally my responsibility for the rest of his or her life. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with me. I do not care how lofty your goals are with regard to my child, I do not care one whit about your desire to save all potential humanity. Knock yourself out. But stay the hell out of my womb and keep out of my way if I choose to have an abortion for whatever personal reasons I have. Your goals may have goodness behind them, but they may not. For all I know you're in the baby bartering business. It really doesn't matter at all to me what you do or why you claim to do it. But your rights end at my front door. I am sorry that you just don't get it. I'm sorry that you are so determined to take my rights away. But I will not let you.

rodriguez, I have also found myself standing with a razor over my wrist. Sometimes it really seems like the only way out of gut-wrenching pain. But it isn't. There is help available if you choose to get it. Although sometimes it takes a whole lot of determination to find it. Sometimes it requires time to pass in order to handle the shock and nearly unbearable sadness that envelopes you. There aren't always answers out there and you don't always have to feel that prayer is making a difference. But sometimes just the right person to talk to, just the right music or book can help you cope and become just the thing that will help you get through a very low spot in your life. Whatever you need, I hope that you will be able to find it and that the pain will begin to fade. There is so much to live for and I promise you that there are so many wonderful things in your future, the work that it takes to be able to smile again, even laugh outloud again, will be worth the effort it takes to get you there. You will be seeing your mom soon and a big hug from her will undoubtedly feel good. I hope you will have the time and opportunity to have a good long talk and you will be able to tell her exactly how you are feeling. I know she will do everything she can to comfort you. There really aren't any hard and fast answers that will automatically cause it all to make sense to you - unfortunately. But over time, you will be able to deal with whatever hand life has dealt you. We always learn more from pain than we do from pleasure. Yeah, some of us get to be pretty smart from what we go through - what we manage to survive. I have faith in YOU. I know you will get through all this. I hope that you will find something that will make you feel better right now, even if it is only a few seconds out of your day. Allow yourself to enjoy something, you certainly deserve to, and it takes nothing away from the real sadness that you are experiencing. It merely helps you survive.

You have no rights to that accumulation of tissue called a fertilized egg. If it is a baby, you have no rights to that baby. You have no right to intervene on its' behalf whether it is a "separate" entity or not. But to clarify further, it is absolutley NOT a separate entity until it develops into a separate entity. When it is a part of the mother, living and residing in her womb, it is a part of the mother. Even if you can't see it that way, think of it like this: if you believe that it is a separate entity, it's like all the embryos that exist in the world. YOU have no right to them. You cannot go intervene on their behalf and choose what will become of them. YOU do not own them, its' parents own them and make all of the decisions for them. It is against the law for people to compel frozen embryos to be implanted and ultimately cause them to develop into babies against the parents' wishes. And that is the way it has to be. It is wrong, grossly wrong, for you or anyone else to make decisions about my fertlized egg, my embryo, my fetus, my unborn baby or anyother name you wish to give this "separate entity" that you want to control the destiny of. You have no rights when it comes to my body, and you have no rights to my fertilized egg.

patty, you can't imagine how cruel you are. I know you have no idea. Because you keep saying that you don't hate anyone and that you love everyone. I just will never understand how someone who claims to love everyone can be so frickin' insensitive and cold. You say that you understand God and the Bible, and for sure you can quote scripture, but I think you have a very limited understanding of God's love. You demonstrate your narrow-minded and very limited definition of God's love everyday.

gadget: "Personal choice ends where another person's body begins." Amen and hallelujah to that statement. I couldn't have said it better myself. Your choice ends where my body begins. Period. End of story. According to our laws, you are completely free to choose whatever course of action you deem proper when it comes to your own body. And I to mine. Figuratively putting your hands inside my body to save a being that is growing inside me is absolutely not within your rights and the law says that you may not choose to do that. Thank God that our President understands the difference here between what you propose and what is the right thing to do here in America. And I hope you're reading, carefully, all that has been posted regarding Christianity here. You can't be serious when you say that people who are against women's right to choose has nothing at all to do with religion. As patty will tell you, Christianity and religion made this nation and it continues to play a role in how this country is run. I don't like it, but it is obviously true. Most Americans have been endoctrinated at an early age in the Christian religion and Bible teachings. Without that, then it would easily be considered a scientific issue. But you can't remove the impact that religion plays in this debate just because it makes it a more difficult argument to win.

Hey darlin' thanks for sharing!! I can always use a laugh! And they say laughter is the best medicine. I've always been a proponent of using it even in very trying situations. Like going into or out of surgery. Might as well get everybody in a good mood if they're going to be seeing some of your insides, right? lol

I'm no gynocologist, but it makes me wonder if her uterus got in the shape it's in because she's birthed so many babies? That's not even taking into account how many times she's used the IVF procedure. The darned thing is overworked and underpaid. Can't expect it not to complain, eh? Hmmm. Wonder if this is God's way of saying "Enough already!"

Well because he shares your take on politics, etc., you've decided he's intelligent? Right, sure, I get that. And you know for a fact that I'm not intelligent, eh? Well you can't blame a girl for trying. Boo hoo. I sure wish I was as smart as Beth. And as funny! I could get some stand up comic work. :cursing:

Sorry, I mean to be here for you, but sometimes I really tire of exchanging barbs with gadget. On the other hand, I just can't let certain of her posts go by without some rebuttal. You actually do not need my help though. You're handling the thing beautifully!

I guess you like to pick on your butt boils as much as you do me. Glenn Beck - what a notion. You all just think of me as your resident Glenn Beck. Yeah, that's the ticket. Glenn Beck is a commentator - not a newscaster - not anything else but a commontater. That's what he claims to be. Just someone who is willing to put his ideas out there. He definitely don't need no stinking research or facts and he ain't even guaranteeing that what he says is even true. All agreed that I'm your equivalent of Glenn Beck? If so, I'm sure I'll feel the love all the way to my little office. Suweet!

Awwww. You people miss me. You really miss me. Buuahahahahahahaha!

gadget: "Which is why I say, WE DO NOT KNOW!!! It could be at 8 or 9 weeks as the one article I posted believes, it could be at 20 weeks as one of your articles believes, or it could be at some other time. One of the articles you posted even said it's sometime after birth (do you really believe that could be the case)?" Interesting that you admit that "we do not know" yet you have persisted in posting links that claim to know. Interesting also that you claim that this is not a "religious" issue, that it is a "scientific" issue. It is quite obvious that one's belief on this issue is inextricably intertwined with one's religious beliefs. It is understandable why you back away from the religious aspects of the argument. You can't win your case if it is solely based on religious beliefs. With science, it is far more easily debatable. And if one is willing to use extremely biased propaganda and questionable pictoral resources, it becomes even easier to make the case that babies are human beings that feel pain and have all the rights of a fully developed person. But when pushed against the proverbial wall, even you admit that "we don't know." All of this, all the discussion, all the links, all the outrageous comparisons to slavery, all the emotional baggage that each and every one of us bears, whether religion-based or not, points to the one fact that we all should know and admit - this is an issue that neither you or I should be deciding for each other. This is an issue that is far too complicated and far too personal to reduce it to a simple case of right and wrong. There are occasions when even you would probably admit, if you were being truthful, that an abortion is the only viable and reasonable action to be taken. All this arguing scientific, religious, philosophical and sometimes just simply emotional issues just prove exactly what the pro-choice proponents believe. Women HAVE the right to choose - no matter what you say, no matter what the government says. We have that right. It is our religion that comes into play. It is our scientific research that we are able to interpret, and our emotional and philosophical opinoins that count when we have to make a choice. Yours count when they apply to you.

It's true patty. I don't know you from Adam's off Ox. (long shaggy dog story) All any of us can do here is write about what we know and what we observe and respond to what someone else has posted.

You're too kind. It's a mutual admiration society with you and me.

Fox keeps tossing itself out there. And it is quite amusing when you defend Fox by saying that ALL THE OTHERS are left wing numb(?) nuts. Who's delusional? Not you! Noooooo. EVERYBODY in the media but Fox is extreme. ALL the others except Fox. Nobody but Fox gives the straight skinny. Only Fox reports the truth. EVERYBODY else in the whole world doesn't give truthful accountings of the news. Not ABC, not NBC, not CBS, not CNN, not MSNBC, not the BBC - no one but Fox gets it right. And you mean WAAAAYYY right, eh? Well if you don't watch it, how the hell do you know? And if you don't watch the others on a regular basis, how the hell would you know? You divine the answers? Cool trick. Why don't you share your secret to gleaning the pure truth from the media? I'm sure everyone would love to be enlightened. I know I sure would. You must be an amazing brainiac. I will sit at my computer in anticipation of having your brilliant insight and wisdom to expose the awesome truth in the public media that only your mind is able to reveal.

Oh, ok, patty. Now I get it. You're perfect. I am sorry that in reading your posts I came to the incorrect conclusion that you are an intolerant, judgemental, hard-hearted person. I should have known better. Afterall, you've been quite clear about how you don't judge people, you just like to point out that they are sinners and in what ways they sin. You may sound like you hate people but you don't. You just hate the sin. And you're here to tell them when they sin. Otherwise, you love the sinners the same as you love everyone. I'm glad that you took the time to explain all that to me. I sure had you figured wrong.