BJean

Carrie: "There seems to be a lot of christian bashing on here. I thought we were all supposed to respect each other's belief's (or nonbeliefs), so when did it become acceptable to bash the christian belief? I understand why some of you feel the way you do about christianity because of the way patty talks to people. I don't like her anymore than the rest of you, and I don't like how she judges people and the way she talks to people. But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act." Carrie I totally agree with that.

Yes patty, it is definitely "hard teaching" and a very hard lesson that some of us fail to or refuse to embrace. Do you have the nerve to try to understand why? Or is it enough for you to just write us all off as devil worshippers who are bringing us closer to the second coming? A very few of the reasons that billions of people who do not believe in a person having to be "born again" the way you define it, in order to get into heaven, fall within some of the lines below. "Born agains" have taught us that they believe that they are above the law because they're doing God's will. They believe that people like Dr. Tiller must be stopped, even if it means murdering him in cold blood in his church. "Born agains" have taught us that they are the judges and jury here on earth and that they are equipped to do it because they are uniquely qualified by having been "born again" and are simply following the teachings of the Bible and they are doing God's will. Timothy McVeigh was a "born again" who believed he was carrying out God's will. "Born agains' have taught us that it is the right thing to do to leave a woman to die if she finds that she's experiencing a pregnancy gone wrong, rather than allowing her to have a physically needed late term abortion. Billions of people do not believe in the "born again" version of religion because billions have never even heard the term. How unjust are your "born again" teachings if they would allow billions of people to go to hell just because they have not heard of it or been given the chance to choose be "born again"? And what of all those people who were born and died before the concept of being "born again" the way you teach it, was even thought up? And what about all the other denominations of Christians? "Born agains" have decided that because other Christians don't require or believe in the "born again" philosophy, even though they believe in God and the Bible and lead Christian lives, those Christians are going to hell because they haven't been "born again"? AND they are devil worshippers? Can you possibly understand that the exclusionary teachings of the "born agains" are similar to some of the teachings of the Muslim terrorists who fight against us? And if you can understand that, can you understand why perfectly intelligent, well-educated, sane, rational people do not believe that being "born again" is the unique qualification that God has put forth that allows a person to enter into his kingdom or that it makes any more sense than what Allah has promised certain extremist Muslims? As for me, I can't believe in a religion that teaches that really good people are going to hell because they havent been "born again" the way you teach it. And I can't believe that some really bad people aren't going to hell, just because they claim to be "born again." I challenge you to open your heart to other beliefs and philosophies instead of being so anti-people. Because it seems obvious that what you're teaching is difficult to grasp unless you are a fully brainwashed sheep, drinking the kool-aid.

Kartman that is not the only paradox that Christians are faced with. The answer is always that you just have to have faith. For instance God loves us and forgives us but we have to be "God fearing" people. The Bible is full of contradictions and when someone says that they take the Bible literally and that they are convinced that the Bible has been "written" by God, I have a problem with it. That is not to say that I have no faith and that I don't read the Bible. It is just that I don't believe that formulating our faith to make it convenient for us to get into heaven is what God intended for us. I don't believe that God can be reponsible for creating all of us and then exclude some of us. I just cannot believe that God is "all powerful" "all loving" and yet he will cut us out if we don't believe in being "born again" or if we are Catholics, or if we are Buddists or Muslims or any other faith. How can every person on earth (i.e., "everyone is created by God") not be exposed to the idea of being "born again" and destroyed or sent to hell when he returns because they never became "born again." Makes no sense. I believe that the whole evangelical, extremist mantra is single-minded thinking and akin to brainwashing.

want2bemeagain, I don't blame you for wanting to come here and state your beliefs, and I also don't blame you for wanting to choose your words carefully. If you've been reading along, you know how frightfully some of us can behave here when we are in the heat of battle. Me included. Abortion rights is a very emotion-laden topic. Not everyone feels as strongly as some of us who post here. I am sure that there are many who just take for granted that the law provides for women to be able to make their own choices when it comes to their reproductive organs. But I feel it is important that we never give up the fight because there are those who will stop at absolutely nothing, even murder, to be able to take away women's right to choose. Thank your for your kind words to me, by the way! Green only went by the name, "green" but there is someone else who uses the word green in their name. The green who passed away was a regular participant who had many clever ideas and lots of worldly experiences and knowledge to share with us. She was very special.

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments. I will pass them along to her DH, who btw, was absolutely an fabulous caregiver during her illness. He was her mate for 20 some years and they got married not long before she died. He took her name. It was a little unconventional but a very sweet and touching story.

Carrie, I am sad to report that Green did die Friday night in her sleep. She had been in a whole lot of pain. The cancer had spread into her bones and brain. Fortunately Canada doesn't have such an absurd view of giving narcotics to patients who need them as the U.S. does. She was being kept as comfortable as possible. I am glad that since she had to go, she is out of pain, at last.

rodriguez, I'd suggest re-starting your meds to help you get through all this, but if there's a chance your DH will get to come home soon, it might be worth it to tough it out. Hopefully things will start getting better, as you said. I'm sure you're wondering how they could get much worse. But they always can, of course. Hang on. Time will help you get through at least some of it. And if your DS needs this, it will be a good thing to get it done and overwith, right?

I'll bet you'd like to crawl in a hole and pull the covers over your head. So I guess this means that the shunt isn't working properly to keep the fluid under control? I don't know exactly what a VP shunt is, but I assume it is used to keep fluid from accumulating either on his brain or his spine. I hope that the red tape gets worked out ASAP so your husband can be there during the surgery. And thank goodness your folks will be able to be there. Awful news about your uncle. Green (I'm sure you've read some of her posts here) had esophogeal cancer that came back after her first treatments and got into her bones and then her brain. I just can't imagine why they can't find a cure or at least better treatments for cancer. A guy I went to high school with has been battling brain cancer for 3 & 1/2 years. Multiple surgeries and ongoing chemo-type meds constantly. He did pretty well for quite a while. He had a stroke Thursday night and died Friday morning. Everyone is thankful that he isn't suffering anymore. Awfully young to die, but so was Green. You get through this bad stuff one hour at a time. When things begin to get better, all the bad stuff makes the good stuff so much sweeter. Hang in. I know you are strong and you can get through these trying times. What other choice do we have?

Oh my, rodriguez. That's terrible news. From the tone of your posts, I believe you're telling us that this is not just a procedure that they want to use to try to improve his situation. It sounds like it might be more in the emergency category, is that true? Does this affect your planned trip to CA to be with your folks? Can you mom and/or dad come to be with you? Is there any way your husband can get leave? I don't mean to sound nosey, but I am very concerned. You know that I am thinking of you, sending you as much strength and support as possible over the internet. If there is anything that I can do, please tell me.

Green died Friday night in her sleep. She is out of the horrible pain that she had to endure from the cancer that invaded her body. I just wanted everyone to know because I am certain that many of you enjoyed Green's wit and wisdom as much as I did. She is missed, that is for sure. There's never been anyone who was as funny or incisive as Green, who was able to cut to the chase in record time and as far as I'm concerned, there never will be.

patty - I know you like to believe that people are inherently evil - filled with the desire to sin as often as they can. If it weren't for Christianity and the Bible, you think that we'd all be killing each other, robbing banks, raping, pillaging, and offering our children up to the sun gods for sacrifices. I do not believe that. I believe that people are basically good. I believe that in any case, we would make laws to protect each other and our homes and our lives even if there were no biblical icons in and around our govenment offices. I do believe that some people need religion and the Bible to guide them. Without it, they'd be lost. But I do not believe that all people are hard-wired that way. And I do believe that it is laughable that you scorn science because you think that it disproves the Bible. I believe that you need more faith. Science and the Bible are not mutually exclusive. Science offers far more physical proof and evidence than the Bible does. The Bible just requires a whole lotta faith.

You don't accept what the Supreme Court decides about our laws and yet you listen to Pat Buchanan and believe what he says has any significant value? Pat Buchanan is a politician/commentator. He will say whatever it takes to get people like you to back him. I have watched him quite a lot. He contradicts himself on a regular basis. When that happens, he ducks his head and gives a hearty chuckle. I can't imagine why you would embrace anything he says. Oh yeah I guess I can. It's exactly what you want to hear. Most abortions are performed long before it is much more than a blob of tissue. Not just a whole lot more than a heavy period. No, you don't like that depiction of the abortion process and I don't blame you. But that is more often the case than the scene that anti-choice people like to portray of the abortion procedure. It serves their purpose and those of Pat Buchanan to use the terms that you've used and sure, it does influence some people. But most people understand that the abortion procedure is what it is, and not like a full-grown bounching baby with all its' limbs being sucked out after its' brain has been punctured and scrambled just before the doctor and the mom do a high five.

I was thinking about you rodriguez when I posted that. I was also thinking about my daughter and so many others who have also had horrible life-threatening experiences relating to childbirth. When I posted about her statement earlier I tried to give patty the benefit of the doubt and thought maybe she was just in a hurry and hadn't thought about what she was saying. Now I am thinking that it's all evidence to the contrary.

patty: "If you have had a period and are capable of producing eggs that can be fertilized, then you can give birth to a child. Believe me, if you get pregnant at 12, and allow it to grow for 9 months, a baby will be born. No doubt about it." Please, please, please stop saying that! I understand the debate that some of you are in right now, but that is such an incredibly false statement that nothing you post after that has any credibility. There are millions of women who have periods, eggs, fallopian tubes, uteruses (uteri?) and all the proper equipment fully developed and who may even be able to create an environment for one of her eggs to be fertilized by a sperm, but who cannot carry a child nine months, or even if they can, they are never unable to deliver a live baby. It is the heartbreak of many fine, otherwise healthy women. For you to keep making that statement it is a slap in the face to those who are reading this who haven't been able to sustain a pregnancy and give birth to a baby. You continually reveal your insensitivity toward women and that you have a false notion that you are knowledgeable about the female reproductive process. Everything you seem to know is guided by a blind, brain-washed, religious thought process. It has made you a hard-hearted person who is ill-equipped to make decisions for other women regarding their reproductive process. This is just the kind of thing that God wants you to become enlightened about. You cannot preach God's love and forgiveness on one hand and discriminate against others, particularly in such a scornful way. Don't you realize that while reading the Bible can be a good thing, when a person uses the Bible to treat God's children badly, it is not good at all. That is what God wants you to understand. He wants you to help others, not cast them out and blame Him for it.

OMG kartman! You are SO my hero! Your posts above are spot on the target. In fact I've spent hours of time and posted hundreds and hundreds of words trying to say exactly what you said in a couple of reasonably short posts. Good job. Excellent job. You are obviously an intelligent man who knows how to cut to the chase. And rational, did I mention rational? And empathetic and caring. Thank you for posting your opinion and revealing your wisdom here. In other words... thanks, I needed that.

Patty: "Every womans body that can produce an egg, can deliver a baby." I am not sure when you posted that patty, but you have seriously outdone yourself with that statement. If I give you the benefit of the doubt, I'd guess you must have been in a big hurry and just not thinking clearly because nothing could be further from the truth. Hundreds, in fact, I am sure thousands, of women can produce eggs but cannot bear children. Are you smoking somthing weird? Or is your single-minded prejudice against a woman's right to choose just blinding you to everything that makes sense on this topic?

Thanks, rodriguez - your support is sure appreciated.

Lydia you and rodriguez are still making some very good points.

Lydia: "The most vocal anti-abortion protesters out front always sneak their daughters in the back door for abortions" The irony of the anti-choice movement is that so many of them have not only considered but have chosen abortion. Sometimes because of the guilt that society heaps on them, they sign up for marching against women's right to choose - and yet they, themselves, know that sometimes it is the best path that a woman can take, in some cases the ONLY path. So it is ironic that they allowed themselves the right to choose but they want to take it away from others. Anti-choice people like to pretend that the woman who gets an abortion is a careless, wonton, hussy who gets what she deserves (pregnancy) for sleeping around. A child should never be used as punishment. It makes me want to cry when someone says that women just have to take their medicine - especially considering that the "medicine" they are referring to is a baby. The women and girls who get abortions are your mothers, your sisters, your daughters, your counsins, your aunts, and your best friends. Don't buy into the notion that all women who need an abortion are careless, stupid women. And don't buy into the notion that an abortion is the wrong answer because preachers and the Pope and your holier-than-thou next door neighbor says you're a bad person if you do it. Each woman has to make the decision for herself. I trust in women. If they can handle a pregnancy, they sure will. But I know that it could be my sister or my daughter who finds herself in dire straits because she was raped or her birth control failed or she was influenced by a guy she was intimidated by or one she wanted to impress. Women need to take care of themselves and make no apologies for doing that. Whatever their choices are, they are theirs and not the government's or some religious zealot's to make. As a society, we should never be in the business of forcing women to have children. Just as we should never be in the business of prohibiting women from having children.

patty: "God has placed every parent with the responsibility to care for their own children. If they don't the scripture says that they are worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)" Thank you for bring this scripture to everyone's attention. I've been telling everyone for a long time that adoption is absolutely not the answer to an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy!

You also seem positively obsessed with the activity pattern you keep pointing out that is going to cause the second coming of Christ. As a good Christian, you shouldn't be so obsessed with it. We have been told that none of us will know when it is going to happen. And you should be thrilled if it happens soon. You shouldn't dread it or be afraid of it to the point of warning people constantly.

rodriguez is right! What the founding fathers wanted to ensure is simply that the government doesn't interfere with people's right to worship anyway they see fit and that the church does not interfere with the running of the government. I'll say it again too: that is the reason why separation of church and state is so important. Don't you understand that if you allow one church to make laws, then at some point in time if a different church becomes more popular, let's say Catholicism, you would be outraged if the Pope was involved in making our laws strictly according to Catholic doctrine. One religion, Christianity, does not rule this country. We are a country of laws that protect the right of every citizen to worship any religion they choose without censorship from the government. It is discriminatory for Christians to demand that laws governing all American citizens should be based solely on the Christian doctrine and that is in large part why the First Amendment was written and adopted. You seem to have a very convoluted way of thinking about the First Amendment, patty. I understand your reasoning, but it is wrong.

We are obviously not communicating well, patty. I wasn't saying, nor was the info I posted saying, that it is protecting the "government from church" which is ludicrous. You can read for yourself without me or your right wing source and it clearly states: The First Amendment "..."expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion,..." So it keeps the government from interfering in religion - period. It says people can't force others to establish a religion and be a part of it and at the same time, it says that the government cannot interfere with people worshipping any religion. Clearly the intent is to provide that the government and people's religion should be separate.

Ok I looked at your link. No wonder you said what you did. That article is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to a convenient truth. The author of your article has sliced and diced each word to create a meaning that the author wants it to mean. (And what you want it to mean.) It is easy to see why you are mistaken about why the First Amendment was written. You've conjured up a convenient truth. Just like the Repubicans are trying to conjure up a new history for the history books which is to conveniently make it look as if the Bush administration was not the worst and perhaps the most dishonest administration in history.

patty you are completely mistaken about the First Amendment. It is not about the protection of Christians. It is to keep the government from discriminating against cetain segments of society. It is in place to ensure that people can worship however they want. It was not written to ensure that we have a Christian nation. I don't know where you read that, but you should read a little more about the history of this nation and about our founding fathers. I mean read the real truth, not the convenient truth. United States of America This article is part of the series: United States Constitution Original text of the ConstitutionPreamble Articles of the Constitution I ∙ II ∙ III ∙ IV ∙ V ∙ VI ∙ VII Amendments to the ConstitutionBill of Rights I ∙ II ∙ III ∙ IV ∙ V VI ∙ VII ∙ VIII ∙ IX ∙ X Subsequent Amendments XI ∙ XII ∙ XIII ∙ XIV ∙ XV XVI ∙ XVII ∙ XVIII ∙ XIX ∙ XX XXI ∙ XXII ∙ XXIII ∙ XXIV ∙ XXV XXVI ∙ XXVII "First Amendment" redirects here. For other uses, see First Amendment (disambiguation). The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.