BJean

Have you even looked at the quality of life in other developed nations, patty? If you measure our quality of life by the number of possessions we have, I'm pretty sure we win. Otherwise, in several cases we surely do not. Have you read the newspaper or watched the news lately? The killings in our schools, the murder of a doctor because of a radical extremist viewpoint contrary to the law, murder of a man just yesterday brought on by bigotry and ignorance, someone in Arkansas right before that, swine flu pandemic, near collapse of our economy, hundreds of thousands of people out of work, deaths in our hospitals from an extremely virulent virus, deaths in our hospitals from human error, people who are sick and injured being turned out into the street from our hospitals because of no insurance and lack of funds, do I need to go on? Just because you're enjoying life and you are quite comfortable with turning your back on people who need food in spite of the fact that they smoke, it doesn't mean that everyone else in this nation is better off than they might be if they lived in Sweden, for instance. If you're saying God gives us free will and then you tell us that bad things happen to us "... because of his starting to remove his blessings" you are cherry picking what you want to believe from the Bible and you're probably enhancing and embellishing as you go along to suit your beliefs on a daily basis. Yeah, I know, you'll come back at me with more arguments that you didn't say (God said them.) Color me unimpressed and turned completely off.

patty: "We can take just one town as an example: An Historian, Roger Mcgrath, went back through court documents and newspaper reports to reconstruct the actual crime rates in the five-year period when Bodie, California was booming.(1870's) The town of Bodie had 31 murders, for an annual rate of 116 per 100,000, twenty times the national rate for the U.S. in 2007. Even our most murderous cities like Baltimore and Detroit have murder rates less than half of Bodie’s. "The point is that crime ALWAYS steadily increases. It never decreases. No matter how hard people try to make laws and stall crime, it only gets worse. America's decline is due to God's removal of his blessings from us and the moral decline of it's people due to thier disbelief in Him." patty that is an amazing post. It is typical of right wing rethoric, which are often filled with extreme situations and data that may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on the topic in question. What about the town down the road? You know, the one where there were no crimes during the period you cited. I have so much more to say on the subject, but I have to leave my keyboard. My mind is still reeling from your inane posts. If you were a true historian, you'd know that cutting off people's hands, stoning them, hanging them in the public square never put an end to crime. And if you would just logic things through to their natural end, you'd realize that the population isn't decreasing so why should we expect crime to decrease? I'll tell you once more so that you will maybe go do some of your own research, capital punishment does not deter crime. There are volumes written on the topic. (The volumes I speak of are not right wing in nature, of course.)

rodriguez you can be pretty dang funny, you know that?

That was very thoughtful heartfire. I actually think my time here at LBT is mostly done. I can't imagine it being as fun and entertaining and as happy a place without green as my sidekick.

kartman: thank you very much for your 6 years of service!

patty, regarding her thoughts on how people get to heaven: "... I said that every person makes their own choice about if they want to go to heaven or not." Didn't you explain to us that the only way for that to happen is for us to become "born again" Christians? And that becoming "born again" is a direct command from God if we want to go to heaven? Why do I keep getting the feeling that you're talking in riddles? My apologies to the other gentle readers. This has become a seriously nauseating line of debate. But just when I think I understand what patty has declared to be the gospel, she does a retreat of sorts and says it is really different than what I've quoted her as saying. We probably all post too quickly in the heat of battle. I'm sure I'm as guilty as anyone else. After this long day at the keyboard, I am exhausted. I will try to be back at it early in the morning. I'm sure that patty will be waiting for me, guns cocked and loaded. Yee-haw.

Rodriguez I have a lot of respect for the military and I care a great deal about them and their families. I know that their job is often very dirty and sometimes thankless. We could not be the country that we are without our men and women in uniform. That is why I find it criminal that the Bush administration sent us into the war in Iraq. Many countries believe that he should be tried for war crimes. It has been said that some countries have made it clear that George W. Bush is not welcome in their country and that they will arrest him for war crimes if he sets foot in their country. Then there is the fact that his administration made all kinds of fluffy noise about how much they loved the military, but when it came to providing more benefits for them upon their return from war, they were against it. I certainly do not blame the military personnel for these things. I blame the politicians. I do have hope that the current administration sees things differently and will work to increase the pay and benefits for our military men and women.

"I can’t put her on ignore. She has opinions that are shared by others and there are still others that may be swayed by what she has to say. I personally feel obliged to challenge her on these issues because I find them to be wrong on so many levels. I think it would be a tragedy if Patty saying what she says convinces even one person that taking away a woman’s right to choose, further discriminating against gays, or forcing religion into schools is ok." kartman, you took the words right out of my mouth on this!

Hey, not sexist at all - realistic, eh. That monthly visitor is a beeotch. Hormones can seriously suck when it comes to shedding the lbs. especially since we women are made to have lots of fat to sustain us when there's a famine. We have to feed the babies, you know. You guys on the other hand, have to slay the dragons and so you have all the calorie-burning muscle that we lack. It always bugs me when my DH and I compete for losing the most weight over a given period of time and he can lose lbs. whilst eating 2500 calories a day and I have to cut mine somewhere below 1200. Let's face it, all the good stuff has a minimum of 3000 calories per bite!

kartman I haven't had an abortion or had anyone in my family who has. However I have been touched by it through various friends and acquaintances over the years. Hearing their stories, empathizing with their painful situations, witnessing the discrimination they've endured, has given me the strength to stand up against those who wish to control women and take away their reproductive rights. I believe it is extremely important not only for women, but also for the rights of all Americans. We have been Constitutionally guaranteed the right to our own bodies. We should never give the government the power to make these kinds of decisions for any of us. Your support means a great deal to me because you sound like a very intelligent man and a keen thinker. Your message gives me hope. Thank you so much.

When speaking of capital punishment, your lighthouse analogy is absurd. We would all be relieved and pleased if only it were true. And if you're speaking of "an eye for an eye" as God's condoning capital punishment, that doesn't hold water. If someone plucks your eye out, maybe it's fair for you to pluck out his. But if someone plucks the guy's eye out down the street, it doesn't give you the power to go exact revenge. Which is what we are doing when we kill people who have killed. We aren't deterring murder. We're exacting revenge.

Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime. Ask the experts, don't take my word for it. Or just look at our prisons and the number of murders committed every day. You'll get a serious look at the fact that planned murders and those that are committed in the heat of the moment are not affected by the fact that someday they could die for the crime they're committing. Capital punishment as a deterrent is one of the fallacies we deal with in our society.

patty: "It is your opinion of me that says I feel I am 'superior', not anything I said. BTW God doesn't choose who goes to heaven and who doesn't. He leaves that up to each individual." Yes, it is everything you said that makes me think that you feel religiously superior to those who do not share your beliefs. I'm not making it up. You need to take responbility for your words. And although you say that God chooses who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have made it perfectly clear that YOU are the one who decides what God's prerequisites are for doing the choosing. So yeah, he chooses, just so long as we believe what YOU believe.

Webster's Unabridged does not share your gratituous definition of those two words. Basically Webster's says: Murder: to KILL a person; to KILL inhumanely or barbarously as in WARFARE, to destroy or put an end to. Kill: to cause death, to DESTROY, to put an end to, to destroy life. You are splitting hairs. Nowhere is there a definition that says that murder is an acceptable atrocity in war and that killing is okay if someone threatens you. Taking a life is taking a life. We had no reason to go into Iraq and murder innocent people who had done us no harm. We had no reason to go into Vietnam and destroy those people who had done us no harm. There is no justification for sending our military men and women over to those countries to kill, murder, maim and destroy. I believe that a strong defense is our best weapon against invasion and terrorism. But when did we become a country that invades other countries for profit? We sure didn't invade those countries because they threatened our lives. Convicts who have committed crimes do not need killing. When we execute a prisoner, we are killing people to punish them for killing. How is that in any way justifiable? It is not. We become what our actions are. If we kill we are killers. We should learn how to rehabilitate and if we cannot rehabilitate convicts then we should keep them separated from society in order to protect the innocent. You continuously justify your beliefs based on your interpretation of the Bible, It makes you a person who is able to justify killing. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I reference Dr. Tiller's killer. The man who murdered Dr. Tiller would say that he went to the defense of innocent babies who could not defend themselves. You've said that it is okay to kill if you are defending youself (or others in war.) Perhaps you are one anti-choice person who believes that women who need late-term abortions should be able to find qualified and caring doctors who will do the medical procedure that they need. But many, many people who are involved in the anti-choice movement do not share your beliefs on that. They are exhilarated by the fact that Dr. Tiller's clinic will be closed indefinitely. And they do believe that killing Dr. Tiller was justifiable murder committed in order to defend the innocent lives of babies. This all started with the hate-speak about abortion. It has advanced over the years to the point where graphic photographs are displayed to horrify the women who are in need of an abortion. They picket clinics - even Planned Parenthood - an organization that saves lives. They have rallies and make carry signs to intimidate women who go to clinics for help. They lobby in Washington to influence our Congress. It has gotten to the point where they don't just demonstrate. They don't just speak out trying to pursuade women and men to join their fight. They have become hateful. They have become violent and they have committed murder. It has to stop. People must start taking responsibity for their hateful words and deeds. It's a free country, and I believe in free speech, but when it gets to the point that it is infringing on other people's rights, it has to stop! To this point, watch the news tonight. It will tell you about a killer, a murderer, who today took the law into his own hands at the Holocost Museum because he spent a lot of time being very vocal, speaking hate, against one race of people.

It's amazing to realize how well we actually get to know our friends here at LBT. We have exchanged ideas and sometimes laid ourselves wide open over the years to each other. I know that for green, this represented a good bunch of friends and support for her, as it does for me. I know that it is a comfort to her mate to know how much she will be missed here. I am happy to pass your kind words along to him.

patty: "Did you mean "faith in all the non christians"? You know, the "good" people? " patty have you ever once read a post of mine that said that only non Christians are good people?

patty: "Because there are plenty of good christians. Those like the abortion doctor killer should NOT be considered part of Christ's family. He willfully committed a horrible crime of murder and is not held in high esteem by christians! I know you "LOVE" to continue to include people like him among us christian believers, but would it be fair for me to say that every non believer in Christ that committed a murder or an atrocious crime is one of yours? They think like you do? No, that wouldn't be fair, would it. So drop it, bjean! You know full well that ANY person, christian or not, that commits murder in ANYBODYS name is sick and has mental/emotional problems and is not a representative of a group by which they affirm themselves!" And they say denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Patty, the point is that the killer of Dr. Tiller THINKS he is working for God. Please stop and think about that for a minute instead of being so defensive. Of course not all Christians are bad Christians and by the same token, not ALL Christians are good Christians. Even you admitted that, I believe. In fact, you've even said that if a Christian is not actually "born again" they aren't the kind of Christian that you are. The superior kind, the kind that God has chosen to go to heaven.

patty: "It is never my intent to hurt anyone here." That may be true. I don't doubt that when you post, you don't intend to be mean or hateful because when I or someone else has called you on it you seem to be surprised. But it's what is deeply embedded in your heart and head that you don't seem to realize may be guiding you. That is the reason that I have asked you to stop and think about what God REALLY wants from you in this life. I understand that you don't think this life on earth holds much importance in the grand scheme of things, but in fact, it is all-important. How we live our lives and how we treat others represents exactly the life lessons that Jesus sought to teach us. You and other hard-headed, hard-hearted "born again" Christians need to dig deeper into your souls to come up with the answers that Jesus was sent here to teach you. Step back from your clan. Stop listening for a minute to the rhetoric that you have so fervently embraced that has closed your mind to other lessons that you need to learn before you die. His life represents so much more than just the simple phrase "Jesus died for your sins."

patty: "What I meant was that those who are against God are for Satan, unbeknownst to them." Key word being "unbeknownst" I guess. I believe that is quite a different characterization from the context where you first posed it. patty: "Anyone who commits murder is crazy." Then we are crazy as a country. We've committed murder and horrible atrocities in Iraq and elsewhere. We commit murder when we kill convicts who have been convicted of crimes. There are many people who have committed murder and after being tried in a court of our laws, are found to be as sane as you and me. You can't make a blanket statement like that and expect to be believed. patty: "Where do you get that info. I personally know hundreds of born again christians and NONE of them feel that he was in the right whatsoever." Do you have or watch television? There have been several who have been very outspoken and open about their feelings. It has been disgraceful and shocking. Some of them even serve in our Congress. Furthermore, people like Bill O'Reilly said that they didn't expect that man to kill the doctor, but they made irrresponsible statements on a regular basis that served to incite someone like that man. Now they are trying to skate backward and say that they didn't intend for anyone to take them literally when they said that abortion is murder and that we shouldn't allow doctors to perform late term abortions. Why can't people be held responbile for what they say when they are intentionally causing the fringe to take the law into their own hands? Why do we accept the old adage that "words don't hurt"? patty: "No they don't. Born again believers understand that there are consequences for our sins, and do not sin willfully just because our God is merciful. You have them pegged wrongly." You are mistaken. First of all I didn't say that "born again" extremists don't think there are consequences, I said that they believe that they are doing God's bidding. If someone commits murder, of course they know that the laws of the land will hold them responsible and they will have to pay the consequences. But that doesn't stop the extremist who believes that he is doing what God would have him do. Neither does it stop the extremist Muslims who flew their planes into the World Trade Center. They knew that if they got caught they would have to pay the physical consequences. But they thought that Allah would forgive them and reward them in heaven for it. I am sure that not ALL "born again" believers are extremists and violent. But some are. And they are the ones that we fear the most. But the ones who spout hate and intolerance and fear and retribution are also to be feared. All you have to do is look at history and you don't have to go back very far. And all you have to do is watch television or read some threads here at LBT to witness the hate-speak that some "born agains" spew against the "non-believers" to know that we need to expose them and their wrong thinking.

Dude, if I were 6'1", I'd be more than half-way to my goal too. Congratulations on your LB success, kartman! I'm afraid I'm a little stalled. I sure haven't given up though. And people like you continue to inspire me to work harder.

Oh. Now that I've just posted that to you kartman, I read your latest. You are awesome. Thank you so much. I am so heartened to read your posts and those of rodriguez, Lydia and Carrie. It gives me faith in the good people of this country. Faith that we will prevail and that a climate of unity can be restored in this country. (For the record, I like to read your posts a whole lot better than my own!)

No doubt about it kartman, you're a bigger man than I am. Well, I'm not a man and I may outweigh you, but you are far more concilliatory and generous than I have found myself being here on this thread. Normally I am a peacemaker. That seems to have gone by the wayside on a couple of threads at LBT on which I've been participating. I know it is stupid to behave that way. I know it is conduct not becoming someone who believes in love and peace and respect for others. So if anyone should apologize, it is undoubtedly me. You weren't that insulting, really. I've apologized several times in the past for offending people here on this thread. My beliefs and feelings run very deep on this topic. And then to throw religion in the mix is almost more than I can bear when it is used in the way that it has been. It has been used in the same way that our former president and his consults used it. I've seen what it has done and continues to do to our country. It is disappointing at the very least and infuriating beyond belief. For our country to wind up in some kind of civil war over the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights versus the evangelical movement is just exactly what our founders thought they guarded against when they formulated the basis of our entire system of government. For a few people to take the law into their own hands and say that they are doing it because they have been directed by God, is baffling and mind blowing. Some of the things patty has said here are kind of like a microcosm of the divisive climate currently existing in this country. So if I have overreacted, that is why. I am seriously worried about our country. I am seriously concerned that some of the "born again" Christians are becoming America's very own home-grown terrorists who want to destroy the rest of us. If not literally, at least figuratively. That's the way I see it. This is how it feels today in the United States for a person who believes deeply in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and who believes that whether we are good people or not has a direct bearing on whether we are invited to heaven by God.

But Carrie we're having a debate here. Patty has turned it into a debate about religious beliefs. In the process of defending our beliefs we find ourselves "bashing" those who do not share them. If someone of the Catholic or Jewish faith or if an atheist were confronting you and telling you that only they have the answers and that you are going to hell if you don't agree with them, it incites anger and bashing. She certainly does not speak for all Christians. That is for sure. But if she doesn't want to be bashed, she shouldn't make it so personal.

patty: "Do you see how you over exagerate and dramatize what I say?" No patty it isn't that I over exaggerate or dramatize what you say, it is that when your rant comes back to bite you, you either deny that you meant it that way or that it isn't your word but it's God's word and that you aren't responsible for it in any case. When people commit murder and claim that it is in the name of God or Allah, that doesn't make them crazy. The man who killed Dr. Tiller hasn't been thought of as crazy. Some of the anti-choice movement have been delirously happy that Dr. Tiller was murdered and that his wife has decided to close his clinic. Many of those people are "born again" Christians. They are not all crazy, unless you are saying that you have to be crazy to believe in the "born again" exclusionary, single-minded, holier than thou philosophy. patty: "Salvation is NOT about the good or bad things we do. It has nothing to do with whether you were a good person or not." And those very words give "born agains" the right to commit any sin that they decide is pleasing to God, and it is is perfectfly acceptable in their eyes. I am sorry for you that you are living the way you are. I know why some of you pray so loud and long every night. It is to drown out your subconscious voice that is trying to tell you how wrong your bad deeds are - the things that you commit here on earth against other human beings and then declare that it is in the name of God.

You know Nancy, one of the reasons I wanted to post the notice is because there have been some people here from time to time that we all liked who just disappeared. People like Carlene and TiredOldMan. They just stopped posting without explanation. We still miss them and wonder if they are all right. Wasa, green told me that you had called her and I know that it meant a lot to her.