BJean

You and your sense of humor and your sense of fairness. Keep it coming. I know everyone is enjoying this. :wink2:

Awww, you don't have to be so sweet and generous with me. Everyone knows who started the negative rant. But gosh I appreciate you accepting my apology. Indicative of your kind, sweet spirit. *warm, fuzzy hugs to you* :wink2:

Yes it was. I'm in total agreement with that. Hey Beth, look at that! We do agree on something!!! Whoo hoo.

Wootsie everytime I make statements like your post, above, where I am stating things as fact when in actuality, they are my opinion based on my experiences, people raise cain with me. They demand that I cite references and proof that what I am saying is factual. Well, I'd like for you to produce some facts to back up all your claims about healthcare in Canada. In my experience, I have found that some of what you say is true but it is not as grim a picture as you paint it. People in the U.S. are so scared of change, so fearful of the unknown, they exaggerate every negative thing they've ever heard about healthcare in England and Canada. Yes, they do have problems. But if you ask people who use the system everyday, there are a lot of happily well-attended citizens. And the fact that they've experienced problems with the system that they have is one reason why we could do it better. We could learn from their mistakes - if only we would. I do wonder how the heck we can ever come up with a decent healthcare system in this country with so many people so scared to death to make any kind of change. Consider all that and add the millions of dollars spent on lobbying in Washington by the insurance companies, and you mix that in with all the law-making Congress people with their pocketbooks wide open waiting for their share and it sure looks hopeless. You do know that since the economy is so messed up, people are in the United States of America are being turned away from our hospitals, right?

plain: "It is a very important end product (people's lives). But in the end, healthcare has to be run like a business. Either that, or we'll be continuously "bailing out" healthcare forever" What part of it's not working don't you understand? plain: "I call bullcrap! There is no country with better medical care. Even if you attempt to argue Sweden (which doesn't have as good technology as America has), it's such a small country that it can't really be compared with large nations." That language offends my senses. There ARE countries with better medical care. Pull your head out. Sweden and Switzerland count. Just because we are bigger doesn't mean we are better at everything. Would that it were true. plain: "For private insurance, I'd tighten up on their abuse of the "pre-existing condition" clause and make it easier for appeals and grievances to be settled in a court. It's not a comprehensive overhaul, but it's a start." So when you said: "it's a matter of me thinking that, with a lot of insurance companies competing with each other, pricing and decisions are kept in check." Sounds like you're all for some intervention and controls of insurance companies based on your tightening up statement though. So maybe what you're really saying is that all this competition between insurance companies is not keeping pricing and decisions in check, eh? Thanks. I feel so much better. As I said earlier I am not at all sure that the single-payer plan is the answer. But I can tell you for sure that expecting competition in the marketplace to fix our health care system is folly.

The fact that Israel and other middle eastern countries are nations who recognize one particular religion is why there are so many people are constantly fighting and at war. Don't think that can happen here. We already have right wing extremist evangelical terrorists. One day we may experience hand to hand combat if we allow religion to be a ruling factor in our government as other nations do. Oh I know patty, you say that anyone who commits murder is crazy. And on one particular level I agree. Anyone who believes that their way is the only way could be considered crazy by those who do not share that belief. So if we separate church and state, the crazies don't have a leg to stand on when they murder people who do not agree with their religious beliefs. We can prosecute them because the law of the land is on the side of peace and tolerance and freedom of religion. We don't have to go to war to keep the religious crazies in check. Hello kartman.

Oops I just thought I was finished for the night. Not being able to understand your doctor has nothing to do with discrimination. And the reason we have so many foreign doctors is not necessarily because our students are out partying. Medicine does is not as lucrative for doctors as it used to be. Therefore it does not attract the best and brightest of American students. I didn't make this up. I'm not sure that it is even attracting the best and brightest of foreign doctors. We're getting what the insurance companies are willing to pay for. Lots of Americans go to Switzerland for medical procedures and care. Some even go to very fabulous hospitals in Mexcio. But that is not a very definitive answer. I will get back to you. You know as well as I that there are countries with better medical care than we have. And no, I wouldn't count Cuba as one of them. You weren't serious, eh? The things that come crashing down in the business of medical care is dead bodies. In that way, it is certainly very different from most businesses. That is why you can't treat it as just any other business. There is much more at stake than just money. I don't know what single-payer will attract or what it will do to improve or degrade our current system. I do know that we must make some changes and they're going to have to be fairly serious changes. I do not think that single-payer will do much to improve the relationships between people, doctors, hospitals and insurance companies. And it seems that we do agree on something, there's a lot that could be done within the current system. Unfortunately no one is coming up with viable ideas. You know so much about it, why don't you petition Congress with a plan?

kool kartman. kool, kartman.

plain: "Nope. I'm strictly a worker bee. But, will you continue to offer a medical plan if the government has a plan for your employees too? Because you'd be paying twice, in a way, for medical insurance." It all depends on many factors, but I wouldn't be surprised if we would. But in any case, you won't have to worry about it will you? plain: "But.....the above sounds extremely racist. I would postulate that the reason there has been a large influx of foreign doctors is that foreign parents actually pressure their kids to study. I think by and large, the children of American have a blase' attitude toward education. Or are you saying that medical schools are accepting foreign students because of some kind of affirmative action quota? As a committed liberal, I'd think you were all for that" You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about medical school or who's accepted. I was talking about doctors and who's practicing specialties in this country, by and large. Now in Texarkana, Texas I have no idea what the ratio is. But in larger cities where I have lived, there are many more foreign doctors practicing specialties than American ones. It doesn't have to do with race. It has to do with country of origin. My beef is with language difficulties, customs, etc. plain: "I might lie about my genital size" Well I hope that isn't something that has affected your outlook on life. And I can tell you one thing about a certain segment of the middle eastern population: they don't bother lying about their genital size, they just know how to use what they have. I've read about it, you see. plain: "But.....what does this have to do with single payer system?" I was speaking to the effect that this system that we currently have - people relying on insurance for EVERYTHING - and how it has affected the medical profession in this country. plain: Are you saying that "I liked nationalized care in country X, so I will like it here". No of course not. But I am saying that it is quite possible that some form of nationalized health care could be better than what we have now. plain: "It's not a matter of me thinking that big insurance is compassionate enough to make the right decisions involving medical care....it's a matter of me thinking that, with a lot of insurance companies competing with each other, pricing and decisions are kept in check. With single payer, ONE entity holds all the cards. With single payer, there will be no competition.....and that's not good." Insurance companies do compete to some extent now, however they are joined at the hip when it comes to lobbying Congress to keep themselves in control of our health care. Pricing and decisions about what kind of health care and medicine we can get have not been kept in check. Except that they have kept the pricing and decisions in their hip pockets. It is a little like what happened in the banking industry. They lobbyed to get rid of government oversight. They got what they wanted. Then they screwed us all and pulled every trick they could think of to simply make boat loads of money - it nearly broke us all. Now the medical insurance companies have done about the same thing to us with our health care. Our benefits have gotten less and our premiums have gotten higher - and they just keep getting richer and richer. We're the poor saps who are screwed. We're not getting a better product for all our money, we aren't attracting a better quality of doctors, and our hospitals are a colossal mess. What part of this so-called "competition" is benefitting Americans who need health care? plain, medicine and health care are not just like any other business. They have to do with life and death. Most business do not. We have to find some way for Americans to be able to get the very best medical care in the world. Right now we do not have that and it is not getting better. Again, the system we have is broken. If it weren't, there would be no suggestions for making change. There would be no need for change if "competition" cured all the ills in our health care system. Years ago people paid for their office visits out of their pockets. They didn't have insurance to pay for routine tests or medicines or office visits. They only had insurance for major catastrophies and not everyone even had that. Back then the "competition" in the market was being driving by the health care providers themselves. Then it worked. Today, we have a health care system that is run by the insurance companies - our doctors, our hospitals and our pharmacies are all under the control and domination of the insurance companies. And it doesn't matter if you live in a large metropolis or Texarkana, Texas (or Arkansas). If you can't afford insurance and sometimes even if you can, and you need medical care, it will probably be a friggin' battle to get it.

And now I remember why I don't exchange posts with you Beth. You're such a dreary sort. All full of hostility and hatefulness and accusations. Gotta find someone more satisfying to debate. Just exchanging small snotty words is fun, but not very worthwhile. But congratuations on your weight loss. (That's to placate the mods.)

Ok I just checked yours out. Congratulations Beth, you've done a bang up job of losing weight. I'll bet you're getting your blood pressure under control really well now. Good for you!

You call that back up? Guess I misunderstood what you consider proof. Proof is whatever Beth has decided is proof, I guess. Now I get it. If it is something that Beth agrees with then my proof is there for all the world to see, otherwise, it's my stinking opinion and it just doesn't hold Water. Glad we got that straight. And yeah, I consider this a hellofa lot of fun. I'll bet my blood pressure is much better than yours. Especially if you're still heavy. I don't check out people's stats usually. I just really couldn't care less. It affects me not. If someone has lost a lot of weight and their glitter and weight loss chart is big and glary, then I notice and I tell them how great it is that they have done such a good job. I would never have dreamed of checking on serenity's weight and then do a number on her about it. But that's just bitter ole' me.

Carrie, I've noticed that too about whites thinking that every other white person sees people of color as somehow being inferior in some way. It is shameful that we haven't overcome the ignorance and fear that drives people to treat other people as inferior based on skin color, weight, sex, sexual preference, etc. If it happens to us we get outraged. But if happens to someone else that is different from us, we expect it. It's a shame. I think it's good to talk about it in an open forum like this.

Beth just admit it. You have no proof. You have no back up for your claims. You're going on your gut instinct. You're reacting and posting in just the same way that you have accused me of doing.

"Deeply rooted bitterness." Has a nice ring to it. I would never have thought of that. If I have deeply rooted bitterness toward bigots, I wear it as a proud badge. It means that I'm not quite as stupid as the ignorant bigots are. That is definitely something, even if I am not as without prejudice as I strive to be.

Beth: "You can't debate; you can't argue facts; you can't back up assertions with proof;" Where's YOUR proof that serenity's feelings are not valid? Where is the backup for your assertions against serenity's claim of racism? Where's the proof that you can debate? You're all about telling me how awful I am. That's proof of YOUR ability to debate? Why should I put you on ignore? You're way too much fun. But you can put me on ignore if I irritate you that much. I dare you. :-)

Jachut I didn't suggest that Beth couldn't understand about racial bigotry period. I said that if she wasn't black she couldn't understand how it feels to be a black person in America. Everyone has probably been treated unfairly for one reason or other. Perhaps the way you were treated by a Muslim man in your country is similar to how black people are treated in America, but I doubt it. I haven't been in your shoes however, so I certainly can't know for sure. To me, having an airline discriminate against you because you are fat, calling you out in front of others is not any more difficult than having someone refuse to sit by you because you are a brown-skinned person. And not having been there, I think it is stupid for someone to assume that they know better than the person that it happened to, whether it was racial bias or not. Frankly I have a feeling there is some evidence of negativism toward my earlier posts going on.

Carrie thank you for posting. I hear stories like that nearly every day. Discrimination and bigotry are alive and well in the U.S. We sure won't get past it until we are willing to call it what it is and work to recognize it and eliminate it.

Plain, if I thought that Beth and Headhunter were just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I don't think that's what was going on. I think that there was a different brand of discrimination going on. Both of them decided that because serenity is 288 lbs., that it most probably was her obesity that caused the person to move. I find that to be very revealing about two people who seem to have very little knowledge about bigotry toward blacks and besides, I guess as far as they're concerned, everything's all about them. Beth can't identify with the black thing and so she thinks anybody who complains about being discriminated against because they're black must be making it up. Particularly since she is sick to death of the whole idea of racial discrimination in America. And for gosh sakes, we have a black president, you losers. Don't you know that means we were ignorant enough to vote for a black man, a friggin' Democrat no less, so we sure can't still be a bunch of bigots discriminating against people with dark skin. What more proof do you idiots want, anyway? Everytime I read her smart-mouthed claims of anti-political correctness, it sounds to me like she's just trying to bust the chops of anyone who isn't a white, or conservative or pro-capitalism or pro fill in the blank of whatever Ron Paul rant you like. She seems proud of the fact that she is anti-government, anti-liberal, anti-just about everything. And she seems angry at anyone who does like our Preisdent - and routinely accuses them of "drinking the kool-aid." That is all fine with me too - except when someone bares her soul on this forum and makes a statement wherein she reveals a personal experience that she is trying to understand, and Beth thinks it's her duty to make her feel even worse. Then yeah I have a problem. Expecially when we're expected to think that it's cool that she's not pandering to someone - and she thinks it's admirable to speak her mind no matter who she insults. And as for me, she sez I am wussified, all about pc-ism and pissy? Well, when it comes to people who post the kind of "everything is all about me and I'm all cool because I am different and the rest of you who are drinking the kool-aid" bull, then yeah, I prefer to be me. And yep, I know Beth, you weren't talking to me. Maybe I should let you in on a little secret.... serenity wasn't talking to you either.

Oh thanks. That's brilliant. Nice to see your ignorance is still showing. To be honest Beth, I've been ignoring your posts because we just don't commuicate well and we certainly do not share the same beliefs or politics. But as far as I am concerned, this one takes the proverbial insensitive cake, even for you. And it rather pissed me off. I do agree that there isn't as much bigotry as there was in the 1970s, but that sure's hell doesn't mean that it doesn't exist on a daily basis. And if you think it does, then I chose the right word. (See my comment above.) :wink:

Just curious, Beth. Are you black? No? How could you possibly understand what real bigotry in America against black people is like if you are not black? If you were not fat, do you really think you would understand what it feels like to get a side-ways sneer because you're overweight? I find it rather odd that you would second-guess someone about racial discrimination when you have never experienced racism against yourself because of your skin color. Or maybe I have it wrong. Maybe you're black and extremely Enlightened. Perhaps you're black and from experience and keen insight, you know for sure that most people who SEEM to be discrminating and bigoted against you because you are black, are really not doing it for that reason at all. Cool. You're black and you're smart enough to know that they're discriminating against you for a different reason than what might be perceived as race discrmination. Because lets' face it, if you're black and fat, and someone is rude and discriminates against you, it makes more sense that it's because you're fat. Uh, huh. Yeah. Right. Sure. Tell us your story. Tell us exactly what qualifies you to make the post you did suggesting that Debbie doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear it.

Well you say that as if we can't help it that we're fat. We all know that all we have to do is push ourselves back from the table. How many times have we heard doctors say that? We are just a bunch of lazy, out of control, self-indulgent, gut-stuffing slobs. I kid. The fact is, if the nutritionists/dieticians, doctors and other medical research people had any real clue about how we metabolize certain foods, what chemicals in our bodies cause us to eat or not eat, and we had a means to comprehend the depth of the problem, we could nip obesity in the bud. We could also stop people from becoming anorexic and bulemic. Right now, it's a guessing game. And a very lucrative one at that. There is no doubt that fat people are discriminated against. There probably isn't one of us who hasn't been discrminated against because of our overweight condition. And you can bet that it is prevelant on every level of society. It's unattractive, it's unhealthy and it's disgusting to those who are not overweight. (And even disgusting to some of us who are equally as fat.) I hope when a eureka moment is revealed, LBT is the first place it's made public.

Aww hell, sign me up. I got nothin' to lose - at least mentally.

patty, you want christianity ..." in general, to be recognized as the faith of our founders and their plan for this country. I would like people to stop trying to push God out of everything public." Our founding fathers didn't want you to be able to impose that wish on your fellow Americans. That is why they did everything in their power to ensure that you were not able to do it. You have interpreted the founding father's written words to mean something that in fact, is the opposite of what they intended. Interesingly, you do not state that your interpretation of the founding fathers words are what you believe, you state that what you post is FACT. You also interpet the Bible and rather than claim that it is your interpretation, or your belief, you state that what you post about the Bible is FACT. Obvioulsy these claims really do nothing to further your cause or to give yourself any credibility as being a philosopher, an intellectual, well-educated or a just plain wise person. This is evidenced by the fact that given the constant postings that you make and the constant insistence that you know these things as FACT, if you were really were seen to be intellectually superior, philosphical, well-educated and wise, you would get someone to back up your claims from time to time. Maybe you do, but if so, I have missed it.

Jack I'm not good at good-byes or eulogies, but I didn't want everyone to think that she just quit us. tapshoes, thanks I will pass yours and Jack's comments on to her family. Her DH did tell me that he reads them all and they mean a lot to him.