BJean

If you are honest and open, you'll discover it for yourself. There is plenty of evidence and information available to you. But I have no desire to bully you into seeing something that your mind is closed to. And right now, your mind is definitely closed to anything but what you are currently comfortable with - and the thing that has become so very important to you. Nor am I am trying to play "I've got a secret." I'm only hoping that you will stop being so close-minded and boxed into such rigid thinking that you dismiss the things that can open your mind to a higher level of consciousness, thus allowing you to become a better person for all eternity.

patty, we've agreed before, but those times were few and far between considering the number of exchanges we've had at LBT. :-)

loserbob, you probably don't want to hear my story but here goes. I've been banded since Sept '06 and I am seriously considering getting it removed and possibly getting the sleeve. When you read about people throwing up, you need to know that it is a very painful event and that if you do it enough you can cause your band to slip. Band slippage is serious and can cause you to need surgery to fix it. So although some people who have lost a lot of weight - all they needed to lose and more - many of them got there by having a very tight band and very little successful eating PLUS and this is a very important PLUS, they exercised without fail. I am not telling you this to discourage you from getting the band. For every horror story, there are success stories. But you shouldn't go into this thinking that it is the snap that some would have you believe. Although I do think that if all conditions are perfect, it definitely does work. It is just that having 100% perfect conditions is not guaranteed. And it is important that you understand that. If you are in enough pain from being obese, nothing bad that can happen with the band is bad enough to keep you from getting it. But once you are out of the real health threat and pain of obesity by losing 40, 60 or 80 lbs., there is a chance that your weight loss will stop right there. For me, the only way to lose weight (my knees are completely shot) was for the band to be so tight that I was in pain much of the time. Having a painful episode was not predictable. One time I could eat a bite of lettuce, the next time I could not. One time I could eat a bite of chicken, the next time the tiniest bit could become lodged and I could spend an hour in excrutiating pain. I just became tired of it and could not face one more minute of it. So when I had emergency surgery for an ischemic collitis attack, and the restriction was removed, I had very little put back in. I have gained back about 10 lbs. of the weight I lost, but no more and I've been at this weight for many months. Just want you to know what you're getting into. I might have dug a little deeper about alternatives if I had understood fully what having the band means. And btw, some people consider their band their best friend. I sincerely wish that I did too.

patty: " It has to do with this: When money gets handed to you for free, human nature says "take it." That is typical thinking of our congressional representatives. That's why you'll never see term limits or an insistence by them that all Americans have as good a health care plan as they have. That's why they will never ban lobbyists. That's also why it is ridiculous to say we should "throw the bums out" because there will only be similar bums to take their places. Money corrupts and that is the way of this country - and most other countries. We the people should use our power to force them to change the system so that they are not in a position to become so corrupt that they sell the country down the river for $$$$ to line their pockets with. That's why deregulation is necessary. That's why you don't reward big corporations for bad behavior, at least without imposing penalties and rules.

Ses "I guess it always depends on the circumstances, though. There are times when the health and safety of the mother, mental or physical, will be most definatly threatened and as a training Naturopath myself I'd never question or object to an abortion under those circumstances with my patients. " Ses, that is the crux of the problem in the U.S. Some people believe that the government should have the power to make the decision for every woman, no matter what the circumstances are. Those of us who believe that women should be able to make their own choice, based on their circumstances, are pro-choice. It makes absolutely no sense to outlaw abortion. It should be considered a very personal, very difficult delimma for any woman who must make such a decision. It is a decision that is one of the very most important decisions that anyone could ever make - not a decision that the government should uniformly make FOR all women. And yes, our healthcare system is not conducive to the government forcing all women in our society to complete every pregnancy regardless of their circumstances.

Some of you may misunderstand my post: Many of you have an enormous need for your interpretation of the Bible. For it fills you with the answers and the reasons for everything and even better, it fills you with the knowledge that all the things that you have done that you shouldn't have done, are forgiven by someone far greater and more powerful than yourself. Forgiven by our creator. That's powerful stuff! I am not finding fault with you or your beliefs. I know how much the Bible and God mean to you. I have certainly felt those things and have had those very same needs with the same answer being: Jesus as the way, the truth and the light. But, and I know you are not comfortable with this, there is a higher learning to be had. It doesn't mean that you must exclude or deny God. It means that you open yourself up to more possibilities and answers. It is more wonderful than any thing I could have imagined and it provides more answers and gives me more strength than I thought possible. I have lived through extreme highs and the very lowest of lows. Before I expanded my spirituality, I was unable to cope with the extreme lows because the pain was beyond belief. Now I can deal with anything that life brings... and more! Right now the primitiveness of the Bible and the things that were learned in church are enough and provide all the answers you need. And perhaps you will never need anything beyond that. Many people can feel content without seeking to learn more. But it was not enough for me and I am so thankful that I didn't just accept the few teachings and lessons of the Bible as the final answer to living a blessed life. Again, I am certainly not being critical. I am simply suggesting that you keep your heart and mind open for answers to questions you haven't even dreamed of yet. And don't accept the Bible as the final word. There is more.

Lbob,even home sales have risen a tiny bit and new home starts too. Not by much, but it isn't going the bad direction, at last. Yeah, the NRA would like for it to be legal for all of us to own ballistic missiles without a waiting period.

This is a great dialogue and it is clarifying, that is if you ever choose to question the things that you have been so endoctrinized with. patty, I have been born again. And again, and again, and again. Thank goodness that I have been able to deal with and overcome some pretty intense brainwashing by opening my mind and heart to things that are obvious to all who are willing to seriously question the motives of the writers of the Bible and the framers of all religions. It isn't easy. In fact, it is quite difficult. But it is amazing and beautiful. And that is what I wish for you someday. I doubt very seriously if you will ever be able to do it. You, like so many others, have such an enormous need for your interpretation of the Bible. For it fills you with the answers and the reasons for everything and even better, it fills you with the knowledge that all the things that you have done that you shouldn't have done, are forgiven by someone far greater and more powerful than yourself. Forgiven by our creator. That's powerful stuff!

Yeah, the experts with the data. Why bother listening to them when you can go tea bag someone?

It is very important that we question and learn and expand our beliefs. If we stay transfixed by the stuff that our Sunday school teachers used to make an impression on us, we are doomed to live within that tight little constrained world our whole lives. For instance, one of those was that God knows the number of hairs on your head.

I find it interesting that so many people love to say that there must be a creator... all you have to do is look around you and observe the wonders of God. Who created God then?

Leigha, loved your post.

Frustrating. Confusing. Confounding. Irritating. Frightning. Where are we going and how are we going to get there?

patty: "I know you feel the 'need' to express how hateful and biggoted I am, even though it isn't true. I happen to be the least biggoted person out there. I come from a family of many differing colors and nationalities, and I don't have even one ounce of prejudice within me. You know denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

patty: "Many people post links to other things here, and it is not right of you to advise others not to open mine for fear of getting a virus. Viruses "happen" sometimes. I could go to a link that you post and get a virus. I would not then say that I will "never" open anything you post ever again." You may not have noticed that I do not generally post any links. I figure people have computers and the ability to find stuff as easily as I do. That being said, I have no quarrel with people posting links. But if my firewall isn't sophisticated enough to block viruses that I am exposed to here, I shouldn't take the chance of opening them. I do have very up-to-date virus blocking software so I figure if I was able to get one in spite of that, the virus I picked up is pretty dang powerful. And in fact, it was! I would appreciate it very much if someone had warned me and figured others would too.

The Bush administration didn't cause the near collapse of our economy in 9 months or a year. It took years of continued deregulation and beefing up the tax incentives for huge corporations and wealthy folks for our economy to reach the point of near disaster. Likewise the move to a healthy economy will not happen in a year or even two. Fortunately our president was willing (like most Democratic presidents) to do whatever it takes to save the country from economic collapse. The people who are screaming the most about "no more taxes" are the very people who have been given tax breaks by this president. So they've now had to broaden their chants to "no more government programs." Stupid people who don't know the candidates shouldn't be expected to understand the complicated issues of a failing economy or how we might go about fixing it. Or even what caused that problem or the trillion dollar deficit..

If people actually voted for the president because of his color - with no consideration for his intellect or politics - I'm surprised. The differences between the candidates was extremely dramatic. So if they expected anything different than what they're getting from this president, then they weren't paying any attention during the campaign, for sure.

Cleo's I support you completely in this argument. I have never known you to be ugly or mean spirited in your posts. patty on the other hand gets very mean-spirited and ugly when she is caught posting something really stupid. Instead of responding with evidence or argument for her stance, she attacks the person. When we attack back she must whine to the mods because that's usually when they intervene with critical comments about us getting personal or they go so far as to close the thread. Do you think they take her side because she claims to be a "christian"?

patty you obviously identify people by their skin tones. What a shame for your daughter and all the people who come in contact with you because that's the first thing you see and it will influence your every thought when it comes to them. You don't even know how prejudiced you are. You are in denial about so many things. And interestingly, you think you're going to heaven and that you know all the answers because you can quote the Bible and because you invoke the name of Jesus in your sermons. When you go to the dictionary, guess whose picture will be shown beside the word prejudiced?

phil I'm in total agreement with you about that turn coat Lieberman. What a jackass. And Democrats listened to our too generous president when he suggested that he not be stripped of his important positions. I can understand why they did, but I thought it was wrong at the time and it's even more obvious now. The trouble with the president is that he thinks that he can be some bipartisan savior to get us back on track as a country. He's learning that there is no such thing as a bipartisan president. You have to make a choice and when you do, if you're going to be able to get anything done, you have to use your power to make it happen. Trying to convince your opponents to do something they don't want is impossible on the surface. Only back room wrangling works in Washington. Unfortunately!!!

I picked up a virus going to the websites you post links to, patty, so thanks a lot. How do I know it was one of yours? Because yours are the only ones I opened. I will never use another link you post and I'd advise others to do the same.

Finally! Some fresh intelligent, questioning and thinking people post. Yay.

Leigha, I agree. Republicans have done a number on us. Because of their campaigns to stay in control of the wealth in this country, they have made the terms "government" "universal health care" and "assistance" dirty words. So now, there are no questions asked. No remedies to be discovered that utilize any of those words. At this point, everyone has mental barriers so deeply ingrained that they refuse to consider anything that might possibly cause change and move us to a better system for the majority of people. And by the way, I think we should all have guns issued to us at age 18 and with them should be required classes on gun safety and testing on our proficiency of gun use. When we're all armed, the nut jobs would have to be afraid. Including some of the whack jobs in the NRA.

What we need in this country is to level the playing field if we want people to actually all have the same advantages: education, health, safety, etc. Because right now there is certainly not a level playing field! And while the rich keep getting richer, trust me, the poor keep getting poorer. Those of you who think that it is perfectly fine for the government to subsidize huge conglomerate corporations and to give them tax breaks, and to give tax advantages to the wealthy over anyone else, like the middle class and poor, you are completely screwed up. You create a bigger and bigger segment of the population into poor people and the demand for the "public dole" becomes greater. We shouldn't be in the business of keeping people down with free stuff. But how are you going to figure out a sensible and fair plan if all you do is go around bellyaching about not wanting to give people hand outs? And if you support giving governmental advantages primarily to the people who are wealthy, you're part of the bigger problem. Come up with a plan. If you don't want your government helping people whom you consider to be capable and able to work, then do something about it. I am sick to death of people being so obsessed with people "on the dole" but who are only willing to bitch about it - not actually be part of the solution.

phil, Leiberman is a cross dresser? Is he a she? Or are you just talking about him changing political hats like Clark Kent changes into costume?