BJean

rrod: what a horror story! My heart goes out to you, your husband and your whole family. I hope that a lot of forgiveness and healing is taking place in your family. A lot of us have suffered from repressed guilt or pain from abuse when we were children. It often results in dysfunctional sexual relationships when we're adults. Many overweight people were abused as children. We have to do all we can to overcome the demons that haunt us from our childhoods. Nobody is trying to make light of that, I'm sure. People try to be funny here because it is fun to joke around and kid each other. No one means to inflict further pain from past experiences. I hope though, that we can all keep our sense of humor since sometimes that's the only fun we have going in our lives. I for one, will try to lighten up when I think someone is a little out of line from now on.

P.S. to answer your question, yes, I do feel you were lucky that your father wasn't killed in the war. The fact that he subsequently died is no reason not to feel fortunate that he didn't die on the battlefront. I am sorry for your loss. I have had to suffer the loss of both of my parents so I do have some idea of how it feels to lose a parent.

Elena please don't think that because you and I disagree on the subjects of war and politics that I think you don't have good reasons for what you believe. I am quite certain that you do. Your viewpoint is just as valid as mine and your experiences are just as important to your viewpoint as my experiences are to mine. I haven't felt the need to list the reasons why I have come to feel the way I do about Bush, the war and politics. It is complicated and lengthy. It wouldn't change anything with regard to your experiences and your beliefs. I am happy to not debate the issues any further. But I appreciate the opportunity to have been able to voice my opinion. I am glad, very glad that you were able to tell us about your opinions and experiences. I found them to be very important and very interesting. Hope you have a good weekend.

I never said we could or should "negotiate" with bin Laden, Castro or Hussein. I said we should take them out. But it is wrong for us to take thousands and thousands of people out to try to get them. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And to say that we've given terrorists a lesson - oh my God, at what price? Besides, do you really think terrorists can be taught a lesson by us? Come on, surely you don't believe that. Thousands of people have lost their lives. Children have lost their parents - not you - I understand that your father was one of the lucky ones in WWII (thank God). But thousands have lost their parents in this war. Families have felt the pain of this war all over the United States. And what exactly have we accomplished? We got rid of one man, a few of his cohorts, and we have had to hire mercanaries to help our depleted military do the job that needs to be done in Iraq due to OUR actions. Bush now threatens for us to invade Iran - killing more, pushing forward in a plan that will not accomplish what he tells us he wants to accomplish. So why should we trust him? Why should we believe that the agenda he presents to the world is his real agenda? Don't you ever wonder at all about what's really going on? Do you feel that you would be a bad person if you ask the hard questions? Do you feel that he should be held accountable for the lost lives and limbs and property that has happened in Iraq? Why do you think that the horrors or 9/11 justify what we have done in Iraq? It has not given us the results that he promised. He just has not - no matter how much we wish that it were true. But people believe that he wanted it to be true so it's okay? Some people believe that treaties and peace keeping and negotiations are pie in the sky thinking. Those things have worked before and hopefully we will have reasonable people in the White House and Congress again one day who believe in using brains instead of brawn in bringing peace to the world. If you think that forcing terrorists and bad guys into believing in freedom for their people, or that we can bring one or two guys down with force and that it will fix those countries, you need to read the history on that part of the world.

I get it laurend, I really do. That's what's so awful about this, some people are coming to certain threads to learn and for support and they read negative jabs at other posters and want to run away. That's a shame! But there are nuts everywhere in the world. You can't crack 'em all. If you try to, you'll get a tummyache. You're a very good person and very intelligent. You add so much to this forum. I don't want to lose you!!!

green you're quite amazing today. I have a little story for those youngsters here who think that anyone over 50 shouldn't be having sex. My SIL's grandmother lost her husband of 58 years last year. Horrible, shocking death, which I won't recount here. Anyway, recently she somehow was contacted by an old high school boyfriend. (I imagine the old high school network let him know that the husband died.) Now these folks are in their 70s!! She called her DD (my SIL's mom) and asked for advice about where to get and what to get in the way of sexy lingerie. Seems the old boy is going to meet her someplace between Arizona and New Jersey for a little bada-bing, bada-boom! Her daughter is completely incensed because her father hasn't been in the grave a full year. When she admonished her mother, her mother said, "Honey, your father was the most lousy lover in the world. I stuck by him for 58 years and went without for most of those. Now you're not going to give me a hard time for wanting some hot sex and close intimacy before I die, are you?" I say go for it, old girl!! Life is short! And like Peggy Lee sang, "...so let's keep dancin'... and have a ball" One day you young whippersnappers will get it too, if you're lucky. :heh:

high five, green. Now if we can just put this whole mess to bed (so to speak). :tired

green is a very smart (and experienced) cookie!

About bin Laden, the point that I was making is that NOTHING we've done, NO LIVES that have been lost, NO BOMBS that have been dropped, NO SEARCH missions, NOTHING that you say is the right answer or the correct action, has brought about the capture of bin Laden. The administration has not been correct about this war, and this is accepted by about 3/4ths of the people in our country. (And most people all over the world.) Just because it makes us unpopular isn't a reason not to have done it. We shouldn't have done it for much more important reasons than that. I can understand that people continue to support this president in spite of his actions because they want so badly to feel safe and protected and to not feel impotent when it comes to terrorists. But the fact is that this action in Iraq has not killed off the terrorists. And it never will. For this administration to act as if Iraq could have taken over this country is their way of scaring Americans into supporting their actions. Just like them saying that if you are against our invasion of Iraq you are unAmerican and unpatriotic. Totally, patently, untrue. Thank you for your compassion for all the fallen heros who have given their lives.

Hey ya'll I really like LBT because we can have a few conflicts here and there without anyone jumping in and censoring us. It's part of the fun of this place. I can't blame anyone for being sick and tired of someone taking jabs at them, because it has happened to me. It is extremely frustrating because they can say anything and people read it and some of them believe what they read. But I really hate for it to come to the point where someone is thrown off. laurend and Wasabub are favorite reads of mine and I love their ability to speak their minds. Please don't take this to the point where we have to constantly be syrupy sweet or not post. Some days I just need to blow off steam. I want all of us to continue to be able to do that. Personal attacks are stupid and immature and if someone attacks us personally we need to not argue with them - that's just exactly what they're looking for. You gotta realize that one party here is loving every minute of her ability to get ya'll upset. And to be able to drag in a moderator has to be a real sense of accomplishment for her. Maybe the thread should be closed and everyone back off, cool off and regroup once again. If someone starts attacking - ignore it. Over time, all the other posters will see what's going on and ignore it too. There's always going to be people who declare that someone is not a good person - that never makes it true - only you can make you look bad over the long haul.

I had a friend in Virginia who was amazing. She never took money or other gifts for giving a reading and only read for people she was drawn to. After I moved to Florida, I was having some problems and she told me to go buy a new deck of cards. She told me to unwrap them and carry them around with me, in my pocket perhaps. Then after a day of carrying them around, I wrapped them in paper no one else had touched and mailed them to her. She got them, immeidately called me and asked, "What in the world is going on with you, girl?" She said that the deck of cards actually vibrated in her hands when she unwrapped them. She went through the cards with me on the phone. She told me several very specific things that were actually happening in my life and I told her she was right about each of them. She was very helpful, assured me that things were going to work out well for me in specific ways she mentioned, and by the end of our conversation, I felt like a new person. It was awesome.

Drum roll please! Trumpets --- ta da! gadget and I agree on this issue. Men must take responsibility for their children. The circumstances of how the pregnancy happened shouldn't enter into the equation - except from the standpoint that it's his sperm that fertilized her egg. Horror stories abound regarding women tricking men into getting them pregnant. (green, those are some doozies!) But until women learn how to grab a man's sperm without his knowledge, all men are responsible for their little swimmers and where they wind up. All men should be taught that there are tricky women out there and then behave accordingly. Once again, no woman should be forced to have an abortion, whatever the circumstances, and no woman should be denied an abortion if she believes that it is necessary.

Ok I will admit that I have never lived under an evildoer like Castro or Saddam Hussein. And I do know that I would also want a country like the U.S. or Britain to come and kill an evil dictator to make my people free. I am completely sympathetic with your thoughts that you would be willing to give the lives of yourself and your family for freedom from Castro. But I wonder if the reality of a war that has killed my family and put our home in ruins is actually the best way to get rid of an evil tyrant. Okay, maybe you're right and it's the ONLY way. Obviously Castro and Hussein have lived for many years with no way for their countrymen to unseat them. But wait a minute... he said we were going into Afghanistan to get bin Laden. We have taken our Armed Forces into Afghanistan but have not rid the world of bin Laden. In fact, people in that part of the world have become even stronger in their hate against us. Osama bin Laden continues to taunt us with his video messages. Even more countries in the Middle East have become a threat to us while we have dropped bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thousands of Americans have given their lives to rid the world of bin Laden and Hussein. Thousands of Iraqi people have given their lives and their country has been in turmoil for years - and it isn't over yet! I can't help but wonder why everyone believes that the U.S. should police all of the countries in the world and clean them up - KILL - all of the bad guys. Because if you feel that it was okay to declare war on Iraq (yes it is WAR - unpleasant as that sounds), then you must believe that we should be occupying South Africa, Cuba, Pakistan, Iran, etc., etc., and on and on until we have nearly ALL of the power and resources of the entire world. That would make us good? That would make us right? Having us tell you how to run your country would be great? No chance of greedy Americans causing more deaths and destruction, just so long as the current tyrant is out of commission, right? I sympathize with oppressed people and people who have been used, abused and unable to live a life of freedom. I do not share your beliefs however, that all Americans are pure of thought and deed. Some Americans are showing themselves to be very greedy people who believe that everyone on earth should be of one faith - their faith. I am sorry for your country's plight under Castro. It is absolutely horrible. And that is putting it mildly. I support the U.S. going in and getting rid of him, but I know for sure that it is not only an issue of figuring out a practical way to unseat the man. It is also political and it is very complicated and there are a great many components to the politics involved. Just like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Until we human beings understand how to communicate with each other, learn how to compromise, learn how to negotiate, learn how to support each other in our quest for freedom for all people, we will be involved in war and fighting. Only when we allow each other freedom of thought and deed, freedom to live our lives on the soil where we were born, to own the ground we walk on and to worship who we wish without persecution, will we find real peace and real freedom. I can't believe that we seem to have learned nothing from Viet Nam.

Here's a good book for you to take a look at green, if you really want to know who and what Blackwater is: "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army" by Jeremy Scahill I disagree that most of the people in Iraq are better off now than before we bombed them. Our occupation in Iraq hasn't made that country more peaceful or the people safe and prosperous. As far as what we should have done in administrations before the current Bush came into office, I agree. We should have been able to remove Saddam before Bush came into office, but to that point no administration had been able to remove him for many reasons. It was not just Clinton who was unable to get rid of him. I would have been all for getting rid of Saddam Hussein, the maniac. However from the day we bombed Bagdad until today, I have been against our military intervention there. We should have been able to remove him without an all out military declaration of war. Now however, I believe we must do all we can to help restore some order and peace in Iraq. We owe it to them to not leave them in the middle of the mess we made there. As for the WMD's that were in Iraq, we allowed him plenty of time to dispose of them before we invaded that country. The fact is that our intelligence said that they were gone before we bombed Iraq, Bush just wouldn't accept it! You still think that was "media hype"? It makes me wonder how the history books will be written on this subject if the people who are here to watch it all unfold can't agree on what really happened.

Do you know anything about the man who is the head of Blackwater? Do you know about their base of operations in the U.S.? Do you know they are posturing to have another base in California? Do you know how well they are equipped? I will admit that suggesting that they could ever stage a coup in the U.S. is a pretty far out suggestion, if you will admit that they could one day attempt take over if they wanted to. I respect that you know a person who was personally an employee of Blackwater and you trust that Blackwater is no threat to people who do not share their leader's beliefs. I sure wish I felt as comfortable with that group as you do. Frankly, I resent the fact that we are in the position where we need to pay mercenaries to do some of the work that the military should be doing in Iraq. I resent that we pay them more than we pay the men and women in our armed forces. If declaring war on Iraq had done anything to get rid of the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, we would have all thought Bush just did what had to be done. In retrospect I don't think anyone believes that attacking Iraq was the right thing to do. Right now we're in the position of trying to not walk out on a country and a people that we have devastated. I don't trust our current leaders as far as I can throw them. Just as you didn't trust Clinton as far as you could throw him. I'm only venting here because I sometimes feel so frustrated that I feel I must speak out. I am very sorry if it came across as attacking you personally. I definitely have no quarrel with you personally. I have the utmost respect for you and the way you conduct yourself here at LBT. The reason politics came up is because you mentioned a "non-partisan" study that sounded very partisan and very ludicrious to me. It made me feel frustrated again. I just didn't feel that I wanted to ignore it.

Sorry L8, nothing political that has happened before in this nation holds a candle to the stuff the extreme right has pulled on us during this administration. No election in my lifetime has been as bad as the 2000 election. Yeah, I've read the history books. I wonder if you're going to feel the same way when this administration's fine works are documented, one by one. I don't blame you for disliking Clinton. He had a very definititive political agenda. If you didn't agree with that, obviously you'd dislike him whatever his sexual proclivities. But although Republicans were outraged enough about that agenda to ride him into the ground, using his sexual weaknesses to do it, he cared about the people of this nation and he wanted to do right by this country. He did some really outstanding things for this country and much better than most of the administations before him. What he did in the White House with Monica Lewinsky was extremely weak and immoral though - I sure can't argue with that. I don't ask you to listen to the pundits who are talking about what's going on that is undermining this country and our very freedom today. I am sure it is as distasteful to you to listen to all of that as it is for me to listen to someone like Rush Limbaugh. But just use your head. Stand back and look at where this country has gone in the past 8 years - the country - not just one man. How can you possibly believe that our country is better off now than it was 8 years ago? Because you got a token tax break? Why aren't you scared to death of the extreme right wing that has taken over the Republican party? Are you really okay with everything they espouse? Are you really okay with the direction they've taken this country in? Is it okay that they use any means available to the president and then go way beyond that to do dispicable things to prisoners? Is is really okay with you for them to have taken us into a war that has cost millions of lives and billions of dollars and depleted our military forces to the point of having to hire mercenaries to do the job in Iraq. Is it okay with you that the Blackwater people are making tons more money (that we are paying for) than our military are getting, for doing essentially the same job? How is that right? How does that in any way compare favorably to anything Clinton and his administation did? We are told over and over that one of the biggest issues today is the flood of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Huh? How has that changed in the past 8 years? It's just like it was for years and years prior to now. Why all of a sudden is it something that is breaking the back of Americans? Why all of a sudden was Saddam Hussein such a vital threat? We helped put him in place. He was playing ball just the way we asked him to for a long time. Did we have to go to war because he got too big for his britches? He'd spent years killing people, beheading them, and all the other atrocities he was famous for. Why all of a sudden was he such a huge threat to our country? Why all of a sudden did we care about Iraqi people? How in the world did we buy into the idea that we could establish a democracy of any kind in the Middle East? Why do we care so much about what the head of Iran says right now? Why do we want to take this country into war with Iran? Because he's such a big threat with his possible WMDs? I sincerely doubt it. We're asked to believe that so that we can go in there and get rid of a guy who has the guts to go against us politically. Do we really want to lose thousands, perhaps millions of lives and possibly start another world war because of that man, who many of the people in his own country don't like either? Why is it okay for Blackwater to become so powerful in this country that if they chose to, one day they could stage a coup and make me worship in the church of their choosing? How the heck is that any different than putting someone like Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden in power? Just because of the label of Muslim versus Christian?

ssdiva: I can't blame you for being a germaphobe, but remember that there are good bacteria too and their job is to fight off the bad germs. If we kill every germ and bacteria, we are utterly defenseless if a bad germ jumps off something or someone onto us. My daughter is a germaphobe and it makes her less than enthusiastic about being in public places. It can cripple your life as much as a bad leg can. It can make you a prisoner in your own mind. My SIL is virtually a recluse and stays within about 2 miles of her home. She won't drive a car, fly on a plane or go to a movie. She's gotten to the point where she just doesn't like people because they can possibly cause her to get the flu or Hepatitis or some other dread disease. She doesn't trust flu shots, or the medical profession. She doesn't want to be exposed to the germs in a doctor's office. The list goes on... I'm not making light of your medical situation at all. I just see my daughter possibly becoming a recluse and I don't want that for her. I want her to be able to enjoy life and see the beauty in the world. I want the same thing for you!

I can't say that I believe it or not. I just have a problem with the whole premise and one guy's "research". As for Florida... interesting that you should bring up that state in particular. I lived there then. I don't know if people outside of Florida got the word about how corrupt and tainted that election was all over Florida, but it WAS not only bad, it was horrible. It extended way beyond some dangling chads in south Florida. Unbeknownst to most American voters, it was a hint of the horrible things to come. If we had known how horrible it could really get, we would have pressured the Democratic party and Al Gore into fighting the thing to the ends of the earth. It is because of this administration that I have come to distrust anyone who boasts about conservatives and their activities and/or motives.

It would be awesome to meet everybody - especially the ones that have been here a long time - duking it out over at Rants 'n Raves! I may disagree with some of youse, especially 'bout politics, but I know we have a lot in common and it's obvious that you're very interesting! I am somewhat isolated physically, where I live, so I would dearly love to have a gab-fest over coffee or a glass of the bubbly, with ya'll. I especially enjoy the people who are open and don't mind speaking their piece. I love learning from so many of you here at LBT and it would be fun to put faces with the names. In fact, even without meeting face to face, I feel like some of you are good friends! Thanks to all of you who said they'd like to meet me - right back atcha!!! :kiss2:

DerickM: Thank goodness someone is willing to take on all the repsonsibility for everyone in the world. Long live Derick.

I sure don't want to argue about this - who gave what, etc. But I just find it very hard to understand how one study provides proof positive that more conservatives give to charity than liberals do. In order to honestly know the facts - who cares and gives the most - you would have to poll all of the people who donate and that just isn't very likely to be possible. You can do a sampling, but then we know about those things, don't we? Remember how all of the exit polls after the 2000 presidential election showed that Al Gore was winning by a landslide? Remember the networks having to retract all of their projections? ALL of the exit polls were wrong - hmmmm, or were they? Were the exit polls skewed or were the elections skewed? :faint:

The Down's Syndrome baby died last year - he was 33 years old! I just feel that every person, every situation, every set of circumstances is unique and can only be decided by the people involved. I can't truck with the nonsense that pro-lifers get to make all the decisions for every woman in each and every case of unwanted pregnancy. Some women would be tortured by the idea of being forced to have an abortion. Some women would be tortured by the idea of being forced to bear a child. One set of beliefs does not fit all. One group of people are not be in a position to force a woman to either have an abortion or have a child. Slavery has been brought up time and again here. Slavery is when a woman is forced to bear a child against her will. Slavery is when a woman is forced to have an abortion against her will.

Elena M: I too feel very compassionate for your friend who was forced to undergo 2 abortions when she would have much rather had the babies. No wonder she is so conflicted even now about this. I am happy to see that there are so many people here who are posting who have suggestions for organizations to help your friend. It does make me wonder though. I had 2 good friends who got pregnant when we were seniors in high school. Both on the cheerleading squad with me... but I digress. The point is that one of them had an abortion, which she very much wanted. The other was sent to St. Louis to a home for wayward women. Her mother forced her to do this and have the child. The child was born with Down's Syndrome. The friend who had the abortion went on to complete our senior year and she participated in all the academic, Pep Squad, Drama and Debate activies where she excelled. She graduated from college, went to grad school, became a teacher, got married, had four children, and became a principal. She has never regretted her decision. The second girl, whose mother insisted that she NOT get an abortion which was against the law at the time, wound up having to get her high school diploma a year late after giving her baby up for adoption. She went to college in fits and spurts and wound up becoming an RN. The adoption never happened, because no one wanted her Down's Syndrome baby. She wound up taking the little guy back and raising him herself. She has been married 3 times, has 3 other children, all normal, and is as looney as Bugs Bunny. Do you feel compassion for these women as much as for the girl that Elena told us about? Do you have any clue as to why I might feel so pro-choice?

Are you just trying to be obtuse gadget, or do you really think that I am the person who needs to come up with proof for one of your arguments? You got it backasswards and you won't find me going out to prove that ALL EARLY FEMINISTS WERE PRO-LIFE or that they weren't. It is a completely ridiculous statement and there is no way you can know that ALL early feminists were pro-life. Having you make these kinds of big pronouncements here are like fingernails grating on a chalkboard... very irritating. Mark has it right in that our arguing here only possibly helps others to solidify in their own minds exactly how or how strongly they feel about this issue. That is why the pro-life people go to such horrid extremes when they paint pictures about abortion. It's a tactic that I am sure works or they wouldn't do it. Unless they just enjoy being extremely gross. Now I'm not talking about them waving signs with an actual aborted blob of tissue, surrounded with the sac, blood and other tissue that has actually come from a real abortion. Because I haven't actually seen that. (Not that they're above that) I've just seen photos of babies at certain gestational ages and words that say something like "this is a baby at ...(fill in the blank) weeks!!!" Murderer, Baby Killer!!! And Mark is right. It has nothing to do with a woman's rights. It's an inflammatory argument thrown in so that passionate people can try to convince other people that their belief that we women have no right to that tiny fertilized egg affixing itself to the wall of our uterus, possibly against our will. They don't allow that woman any right to determine for herself whether she will give that fertilized egg blood, nourishment, air, and all the other things it will need to grow, be born and become a living breathing human being, with all the possibilities and responsibilities of every other human being on this earth. Right now, pro-lifers believe that THEY are the ones who get to decide for that impregnanted mother what she will do when faced with this huge, huge decision about bringing a life into the world. They are the ones who have decided that they can enslave women to do their bidding. They want all of us good people to believe that they are completely looking out for the fertilized egg. When sometimes I wonder if they aren't in the baby brokering business. That's an ugly thing to say, but let's face it there are people in this world who do just that. And they want more of the commodity that they profit from.

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few days. I REALLY am. won't go into the details, but you'd be surprised about what is going on in my life. Posting here takes a backseat, big time. gadget you're badgering me to supply names of early feminists who were not pro-life, but you're the one who made the statement that ALL early feminists were pro-life. It is up to you to provide proof of that. You have not provided proof of that by naming some names. It is not incumbent upon me to furnish you names of early feminists who were not pro-life. I just know that you don't have any proof of what you claim. No studies have been established or background done to prove what you say about all early feminists being pro-life. We don't even know who ALL the early feminists were. Consequently as I have suspected all along, much of what you say is wishful thinking on your part. As I have seen in the past, many of the sources you cite here are from extreme and biased origins. Which is fine by me. That's your perrogative to post such things to make your point. But I hope you don't think that all of us fail to understand what you're doing. Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that. But I can't help feeling sorry for you and way you describe your life and your baby's father and the way your child was conceived. When you have full-time, total and complete responsibility for a small human being who looks to you for its' very survival, 24/7, being so sure of yourself could certainly come in handy. But I just think there will be many times when you'll be wondering what the heck you were thinking when you became pregnant. I'm shocked to see your sonogram that you say was made at 6-7 weeks gestation (was it?). My daughter just had a sonogram at 8 weeks gestation and the baby is nowhere near that developed. Listen you all, it's easy to understand... a fertilized egg is a living growing thing which is fully a part of its' mother-host. It is not an individual no matter how much you want that to be true. You need to just go with your instincts and beliefs and forget trying to convince people that a tiny fetus is a baby, in and of itself. It cannot be an individual human being until it IS an individual human being. Be that as it may, a million people (or whatever the number you toss out there) cannot make reproductive decisions for the other millions of people in the world. It is impossible. It has never worked that way and it never will. Telling everyone else what you believe to be true just doesn't make it true to everyone else. I don't expect you to give up your "fight" for "all human life" but I expect you to respect the right of all of the other people to believe differently than you.