I have been wondering this for a while ...

Very often when there is a post about hunger, and it is suggested it may be head hunger they are experiencing, the reaction is defensive. They are insistent this is "real" hunger. Even in the OP they will sometimes lead with they know the difference between "real" hunger and head hunger, and they definitely have "real" hunger.

Is head hunger not "real"?

So, for me, head hunger and physical hunger are very difficult to distinguish between. They physically feel identical. I have to really analyze why I am hungry. Did I have a trigger, an email from Postmates, smelling a neighbors BBQ, hearing the ice cream truck? I have to think about what will satisfy my hunger, do I need a burger, or does lentil soup sound just as good? Only when I think about those, can I determine which type of hunger I am experiencing.

Head hunger has lead me to; fill countless carts on Grubhub, Postmates, Ubereats, and (almost always) exit before checking out; get into my car and drive to a fast food restaurant, only to (almost always) turn around and go home; endlessly flip through a room service menu; take a half eaten taco out of my hotel room trash (wrapped and in a bag!) and finish it.

Is head hunger less difficult to manage than physical hunger? Is having head hunger a sign of some sort of weakness?

That's true, but for Johns Hopkins to bring this up...this assertively...gives me serious pause.

1 minute ago, Creekimp13 said:

That's true, but for Johns Hopkins to bring this up...this assertively...gives me serious pause.

My take-away from the article is that the pre-surgery psychological screening needs to be more in depth. It seems like the norm for people to have only one meeting with a therapist ahead of the surgery. That's probably not sufficient to catch eating disorders unless the patient is exceedingly honest.

48 minutes ago, sillykitty said:

I agree with all of this. That was basically my point, no type of hunger is more "real" than the other. They just have different sources.

What is frustrating is when any suggestion of head hunger is dismissed and as you said, looked at upon as a weakness, instead of being legitimate. We all come to this forum to learn from other experience, and to help others by sharing our experiences. So you share yours with physical hunger, and I share mine with head hunger. But physical hunger is viewed legitimate, but head hunger is not.

I think the reason that "head hunger" has a bad connotation is because it leads to eating bad foods due to nature of its existence. I don't care for people who say they have hunger, and excuse the fact that it could be head hunger. Head hunger is real, just as real as regular hunger. I always challenge the OP to really pay attention to when they are hungry. Is this triggered by a commercial on TV, a stressful moment, or a smell from your neighbors BBQ.

This article has a good comparison chart.

https://primesurgicare.com/head-hunger-vs-belly-hunger-difference/

Edited July 6, 20188 yr by AshAsh1

SillyKitty, I want to ask a question, but I'm scared it's going to sound facetious...and I really don't mean it that way. I'm honestly trying to understand here, and I hope you get that I'm sincere.

So here goes...

You're eating 500 calories at day at about 5 months out....and you're not interested, for the most part, in eating the healthy options you keep at home beyond 500 calories......but find yourself struggling with cravings for unhealthy foods, take out, etc. Is this all correct?

Now, here's my question...and please don't take this as a criticism or in any way a negative....I just want to try to get my head around where you're coming from...

But...why don't you try to eat 1000 calories or so of healthy foods (even if you're not that interested)...and see if it doesn't help with the cravings for the naughty stuff? Wouldn't it make sense that having really good nutrition in ya would help ease the cravings? To me, that'd be the place to start. I totally get that I'm not you....but I'd like to understand why this isn't an option?

Awesome chart, Ash!

1 hour ago, Orchids&Dragons said:

Is your head-hunger negotiable? i.e. can you tell yourself, ok, I'm hungry. I'll eat 1/2 oz. of almonds. If I'm still hungry in half an hour, then I'll get something else. I often use a chai latte as my negotiating tool.

I do this as well. I test myself to see if it's real hunger or head hunger. If it's real hunger, that 1/2 oz of almonds (or in my case a tuna foil packet) will seal the deal, if I'm hungry again in 30 mins, then I know that its head hunger.

Technically all hunger is "head hunger". I really don't like the term, but I understand it's meaning and I think that's where a lot of folks get defensive. "Head Hunger" should be written as "psychological hunger sensations". I think people hear "head hunger" and "it's all in your head" and that whole "it's all in your head" puts people on the defensive because it's inherently negative. A lot of what's been posted makes sense. We've got "learned hunger responses/triggers" and then we've got actual "I'm shaking because I need food" levels of hunger.

I don't think anyone, that's more than 2 months out of surgery should be eating less than 1000 calories a day, Even at 1000 that's a deficit and not maintenance level intake. There are plenty of studies showing that continued excessively low levels of caloric intake causes issues.

Clearly my opinion (based on studies and facts... but still to each their own).

Bottom line, every aspect of everything we are, do, see, feel, etc is in our head. It's all our brains interpenetration of everything happening within us, and outside of us. So, everything is "in your head".

Edited July 6, 20188 yr by Matt Z

4 minutes ago, Creekimp13 said:

SillyKitty, I want to ask a question, but I'm scared it's going to sound facetious...and I really don't mean it that way. I'm honestly trying to understand here, and I hope you get that I'm sincere.

So here goes...

You're eating 500 calories at day at about 5 months out....and you're not interested, for the most part, in eating the healthy options you keep at home beyond 500 calories......but find yourself struggling with cravings for unhealthy foods, take out, etc. Is this all correct?

Now, here's my question...and please don't take this as a criticism or in any way a negative....I just want to try to get my head around where you're coming from...

But...why don't you try to eat 1000 calories or so of healthy foods (even if you're not that interested)...and see if it doesn't help with the cravings for the naughty stuff? Wouldn't it make sense that having really good nutrition in ya would help ease the cravings? To me, that'd be the place to start. I totally get that I'm not you....but I'd like to understand why this isn't an option?

I noticed my hunger subsided substantially when my calories went up. And it hasn't affected my loss, that I know of. I've slowed here recently, but not in that first 5 months. I was right at 1000 calories near the 8 week mark, I'd say. I don't force myself to hit that mark everyday, but I don't stress about calories unless I'm getting close to that 1200 mark. I feel satisfied and good with the amount that I eat. I don't have too many cravings either.

3 minutes ago, AshAsh1 said:

I noticed my hunger subsided substantially when my calories went up. And it hasn't affected my loss, that I know of. I've slowed here recently, but not in that first 5 months. I was right at 1000 calories near the 8 week mark, I'd say. I don't force myself to hit that mark everyday, but I don't stress about calories unless I'm getting close to that 1200 mark. I feel satisfied and good with the amount that I eat. I don't have too many cravings either.

Follow up from this... @Creekimp13 I do feel like I snack a lot to get that many calories in throughout the day. Not that I'm necessarily trying to, but I have two solid snacks during the day.

7:45am- Breakfast
10:00am- Snack
12:30pm- Lunch
3:00pm- Snack
5:30-6:00pm- Dinner
8:00pm- Snack negotiable....

I think if I cut out the snacks, there's no way that I would be getting in that many calories. I wouldn't be able to eat that much in one sitting for them to reach 1000-1200.

So I guess my question, and maybe for Matt Z too, is do you guys snack? Or do you just eat more calorie rich foods to hit those numbers?

On 07/06/2018 at 09:50, Creekimp13 said:

When you're eating starvation level calories....and could satisfy your hunger by eating something healthy....that's REAL hunger in my opinion.

Think of the calories your body needs to heal itself and maintain your basal processes.....and think of what you're consuming. That hunger is not "in your head"....it's your body trying to warn you that you will get ill or die of starvation if you don't pull up.

This obsession with "head hunger" when we're eating starvation level calories concerns me a lot because it's a stone's throw from eating disorder speak....and eating disorder crossover (anorexia, bulimia) is a very real concern after bariatric surgery.

Real Hunger = can be satisfied by a healthy snack that's on your plan. if you have real hunger...YOU SHOULD EAT.

Head Hunger = you've just had a healthy dinner but think you want a Big Mac. You're not really physically hungry...your body has had it's nutritional needs met. But you *think* you're hungry for something you crave, or you have an emotion that would be soothed with food, or you're bored, stressed etc.

That’s always been my criteria—would anything satisfy the hunger including something healthy? If yes, it’s real. If I am hungry FOR a particular food like a cookie or a hamburger then it’s head hunger.

So yeah, important to note the differences and treat them differently. Doesn’t mean they don’t both exist and sometimes even feel the same.

On 07/06/2018 at 10:14, sillykitty said:

That's the thing, I do eat very low cals, usually under 500. But I have little physical hunger. I will feel hungry, but the only appealing foods are delivery or fast food. My home is full on healthy options, but I keep browsing Grubhub. So in my case I'm eating at "starvation level calories" and my hunger is absolutely in my head.

Yup. I too didn’t have actually hunger for over a year despite being in that calorie range.

On 07/06/2018 at 10:17, Creekimp13 said:

The reason I, personally, get defensive when someone accuses another person of "head hunger" is that they can't possibly know what that other person is experiencing.....and they label it. Worse, the label means....you're over eating, and you're giving into temptation. Who are you to judge that?

Maybe it's the same in reverse? I can't possibly know what you're experiencing when you're talking about "head hunger" that you legitimately feel you suffer....so you feel defensive, too, when I say....nope, you're not eating enough calories...and your body is telling you that need to eat. Who am I to judge that?

Either way....people should avoid labeling each other's experiences and concentrate on their own. I don't know how your body works. I've never felt what you feel.

But I do know that there are a lot of mind games at work in this whole messy business. And I know they can lead us in some very unhealthy directions if we're not vigilant.

I think what we all try do to is open up peoples eyes to other possibilities... other interpretations than the one we are already at.

I mean when we post in distress we have our own perspective and yet we are still suffering. So when someone answers they are trying to give an alternate view for the poster to try on and see if it fits.

I tend to give the “will anything satisfy it even something on plan” trick. Then I suggest medicine for acid because that mimics hunger for me and many others. And I can’t get rid of the “hunger” it causes except by constant eating, even when I’ve had enough calories and such. So it’s something that might be valuable insight for someone else.

Take what you like and leave the rest. No need to get defensive.

17 minutes ago, AshAsh1 said:

I do this as well. I test myself to see if it's real hunger or head hunger. If it's real hunger, that 1/2 oz of almonds (or in my case a tuna foil packet) will seal the deal, if I'm hungry again in 30 mins, then I know that its head hunger.

Actually, I'm the opposite. If the hunger is gone in 30 minutes from an "inadequate" meal, I know it was head hunger. If I'm still hungry after ingesting just a few calories, then it is real hunger and I can eat a bit more. However, since I can't eat almonds yet, I don't actually know how much of a meal 1/2 oz. is. I actually do all my hunger testing with soft cooked veggies, so only about 20 calories. I don't even know why I used almonds as an example!

Edited July 6, 20188 yr by Orchids&Dragons

4 minutes ago, AshAsh1 said:

So I guess my question, and maybe for Matt Z too, is do you guys snack? Or do you just eat more calorie rich foods to hit those numbers?

Ash, I eat six times a day, generally.

Your schedule is pretty close to what i follow. I rarely eat more than 200 calories in one sitting.

Some days I'll bank for certain meals that might run heavier, and skip a snack or make other meals light.....but I know there are limits to what fits in the sleeve...and at about 250-300 calories, I'm Thanksgiving Day stuffed.

Needless to say, I'm no longer a buffet candidate. LOL.

But yeah...I spread it out to get my 1200 in. Have to.

On 07/06/2018 at 11:18, Creekimp13 said:

SillyKitty, I want to ask a question, but I'm scared it's going to sound facetious...and I really don't mean it that way. I'm honestly trying to understand here, and I hope you get that I'm sincere.

So here goes...

You're eating 500 calories at day at about 5 months out....and you're not interested, for the most part, in eating the healthy options you keep at home beyond 500 calories......but find yourself struggling with cravings for unhealthy foods, take out, etc. Is this all correct?

Now, here's my question...and please don't take this as a criticism or in any way a negative....I just want to try to get my head around where you're coming from...

But...why don't you try to eat 1000 calories or so of healthy foods (even if you're not that interested)...and see if it doesn't help with the cravings for the naughty stuff? Wouldn't it make sense that having really good nutrition in ya would help ease the cravings? To me, that'd be the place to start. I totally get that I'm not you....but I'd like to understand why this isn't an option?

You have an opinion and you are entitled to it as long as it’s stated as such. Because that is all it is, an opinion. Your program is working on research to back it up, but it’s not out there yet. Is it a controlled study with experimental and control groups? It’s not double blind, it can’t be. I will be interested in seeing the results.

But, Many doctors have a different opinion. I did just fine at far less than 1000 calories long term and have been successful in maintenance. So the more than 1000 calories is not a only one path equals success.