I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the proposed changes in the laws for people that are here illegally. Do you think they should be given amnesty and legal status? Deported? What about their children who are born here and therefore are U.S. citizens? It just seems to me that to start out your life in a new country by breaking it's laws isn't right. What do you all think?

send them to Canada!

Hahahaha Though I got a good laugh out of this statement I can also see that there is a certain amount of truth in Derick's proposal. The truth is that Canada is not only underpopulated, but also that, demographically speaking, our behaviour is much more similar to that of the western industrialized European countries than it is to that of our southern neighbour. Canadians, like Europeans, are not having children. Yep, our birthrate is declining and in this we are following the trend of all the affluent, industrialized European countries. The United States has been an anomaly in that its birthrate is 2.0 and this means that America is maintaining its population.

The decline in birthrate is something which is of serious concern for those nations which are affected. This is because, in the case of the Europeans, the cultural definition of national identity is complex and a loss in population cannot be solved by importing new folk and asking them to take up the slack. Japan is another highly successfull nation which is suffering from a collapse in its birthrate. Of course its national identity not only reposes on a complicated set of cultural issues but there is also the racial business, as well. Japan has been attempting to solve its decline in births by hunting down the children and the grandchildren of its emigrants with a campaign in order to convince them to move back to the ancestral homeland.

Up here in Canada we do have it kind of easy in so far that - apart from the Quebecois - there is no such thing as a real Canadian. Canada is a very young country and one with a lousy climate and thus most Canadians are one, two, or three generations at best from being away from living somewhere else. This is why I was so amused by Derick's solution. Indeed, the city where I live, one of the largest cities in North America, is now mostly comprised of first or second generation immigrants. Toronto is considered to be the most multi-cultural city in the world at this point and this is an environment which is very successful. The city is much safer than most and we Torontonians are accustomed to dealing with folks from all over the world as part of our daily lives.

The truth is that I am accustomed to buying my fruits and vegetables from the Portuguese greengrocer down the street and I am comfortable that he has hired the local imam, a guy who lives two doors down from us. I am used to dealing with the Jamaican kid who likes to complain about her Barbadian (Bajan) boyfriend when I rent movies from the local Blockbuster. One of my two physiotherapists is from Nicaragua. He calls me little Green in Spanish. The secretary is from Peru and speaks Spanish and English but her racial roots are Japanese. She doesn't speak a word of the language, however.

I cannot say how life might be for new comers in any of the small villages which are also part of Canada but here in Toronto we have become so habituated over the years to sharing space that we have grown to believe that this is the norm. And one of the best things about all of this is all the great ethnic restaurants, eh.

No we have enough in Canada already.

Go live in a third world country for a few years and you might feel differently about how you view illegal immigrants. All of you clearly have no idea what it's like. Say what you will about "law-abiding citizens" and make your incredibly offensive and racist "fruit-picking" comments, but every illegal immigrant that I have known (and I live in Miami, which is one of the US alien capitals) has a stronger work ethic, a fgrateful attitude, and more respect for the US government than any born-and-bred North American.

As for all of you who seem to think that terrorists all come from other countries, I think you need to re-read your history books. Timothy McVeigh? Ted Kazynsky? Columbine? John Walker Lindh? And let's not forget the biggest terrorist of them all, George W. Bush.

Most of us wouldn't be here if the Native Americans had instituted the anti-immigration laws that this government is trying to impose. What makes you think you are so special that you can turn around and shove everyone else out? What are you so afraid of? Oh no! Maybe your childern will learn a second language! I'm so sick of Americans and their hoity-toity behaviour and their arrogant proprietary attitudes.

In case you are wondering, I was born and raised in this country. But I am married to a foreigner and he was raised in a VERY different environment with a facist government. If our immigration laws were stronger, I might not have met him. Yes, he went through hell to get his citizenship, but it's hell for everyone.

I'm not saying that we should open our doors and let the whole world come in. But this wall-building sh*t and the obsessive anti-immigrant laws are so excessive. There has to be a balance. How can we spread democracy and freedom if we shut ourselves in and refuse to lead by example? Oh yeah, I forgot -- by blowing up major cities and innocent civilians with the premise of searching for imaginary WMDs.

We need to watch out for our children and grandchildren. If they want to be an AMERICAN then let them go through the right channels to become one. There is no free rides!!!!!!! If you break athe law you should pay just like everyone!!!!!

I'm not saying that we should open our doors and let the whole world come in. But this wall-building sh*t and the obsessive anti-immigrant laws are so excessive. There has to be a balance. How can we spread democracy and freedom if we shut ourselves in and refuse to lead by example? Oh yeah, I forgot -- by blowing up major cities and innocent civilians with the premise of searching for imaginary WMDs.

Actually you are saying we should open our doors and let the whole world come in because essentially, that is what we do and you support this. You do not support further laws to stop this "illegal" behavior. So, what is it that you support? Closing the borders so the whole world doesn't walk in or not?

My husband also came from another country, a 3rd world country. He did it the right way, the legal way. There is no way you will convince me that it is okay to break our laws as long as you are not from this country.

As for the Native Americans... Honestly, I don't give a rats behind about it "in the manner you suggest". I have no control over that, I wasn't born at that time, I don't know anyone that was a part of that. I am not responsible for it. If it was bad and inappropriate behavior then, it is bad and inappropriate behavior today. No way around that. What happened to the Native Americans was wrong and we are currently paying a great deal of money to the tribes for actions we didn't do. In the end we benefit and they benefit. Such is life. Just because someone is not from our country does not mean it is a free for all to break any law they wish. We'll enforce a few laws and not enforce a few. That's just total crap.

As for the laws for illegals being excessive... bull. They are not. We don't enforce any laws that have to do with illegals. We could have a law that says shoot them all down with large guns. But if we don't enforce such a law they don't have a lot to worry about.

You act as though most here support the current war and that justifies illegals. Not sure I get your logic but I'd venture a guess that most who have posted in this thread thus far do not support either. Besides, bottom line is that one has absolutely nothing to do with another.

Pack them up and ship them out. Send them back to where they do belong, the US isn't it.

Bubblebutt, we've had quite a few conversations and I respect you because you are clearly an intelligent, thoughtful woman. We are not going to agree and I'm not here to change anyone's opinion. This is the rants and raves section for a reason. I do not agree with you, but I respect you as a person and you are free to state what you believe (not that you need my validation).

There are, however, others who have made sweeping statements about keeping out the terrorists, etc.:

Do you remember how the terrorists got into this country?

It's this kind of thinking that makes me feel like I need to insert my few cents here.

Lastly, there is quite a difference between opening our doors wide open and building a wall and shooting any illegal alien that we see. I don't agree with super-strict anti-immigration laws, but I also don't think we should put out the welcome mat to everyone. I said it before and I'll say it again: there needs to be a balance. It doesn't have to be one way or the other.

The current immigration laws aren't being enforced, what makes you think the new laws will be enforced any better?

Any new immigration laws are just there to mollify panicked people who resent this unseen new enemy and to distract us from real issues.

How has illegal immigration managed to suddenly become so immediate and desperate?

I think that the issue is SO CLEAR that illegal immigration is wrong, that people who are against it have to redirect their rebuttals towards a "singly characterized, bigoted individual" and to make broad generalizations about the opinions and assumptions and qualities of naturalized Americans.

This has nothing to do with what anyone thinks that all Americans are or what all immigrants are. You can't do that, you can't just say all groups of people are the same because of their citizen status. That's called prejudice, characterizing a whole group of people based on what you think they all think or do.

It's about making sure that people who come here know the law, and are equipped to abide by it, and who have genuine interest to naturalize themselves and become Americans and pledge allegience to this their new country. It's about making sure that the economic impact of those people entering this country will be beneficial TO ALL AMERICANS.

Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one, and we all think each other's stink!

How has illegal immigration managed to suddenly become so immediate and desperate?

It hasn't. The border states have been screaming about this for years and years. It wasn't ever an issue until the rest of the country started feeling what we experience on a daily basis. Suddenly the rest of the country started to pay attention and realize this is a serious problem. If we would have acted on it before it was this far out of hand we'd be in a much better position today.

One in four children in our public schools is an illegal or an anchor baby, the majority of illegals are on welfare to the point that more illegals are on welfare than legal US citizens... you know, the ones paying the bills.

I met a woman that was moving, she and her grandchild were leaving California because since her grandchild was born in the US she spoke only English. There were no more "English only" classes left within her grade so they put her in a Spanish only class. She's a LEGAL US citizen!

75% of children born in one county of California (forget which county) are born to illegals. Anchor babies.

Even after an illegal becomes a legal citizen the majority of them will be working poor and on welfare for life. How many countries can we afford to take care of for life? Anyone familiar with how many generations of individual families stay on welfare?

We can't afford a war and we can't afford 50,000,000 illegals breaking our laws on a daily basis. One does not make the other okay, it is like saying we should ignore those who rape women because we have pedophiles that rape children. We don't pick one over the other, we tackle them both. We need to be tackling the war and the illegals, not one or the other.

Go live in a third world country for a few years and you might feel differently about how you view illegal immigrants. All of you clearly have no idea what it's like. Say what you will about "law-abiding citizens" and make your incredibly offensive and racist "fruit-picking" comments, but every illegal immigrant that I have known (and I live in Miami, which is one of the US alien capitals) has a stronger work ethic, a fgrateful attitude, and more respect for the US government than any born-and-bred North American.

As for all of you who seem to think that terrorists all come from other countries, I think you need to re-read your history books. Timothy McVeigh? Ted Kazynsky? Columbine? John Walker Lindh? And let's not forget the biggest terrorist of them all, George W. Bush.

Most of us wouldn't be here if the Native Americans had instituted the anti-immigration laws that this government is trying to impose. What makes you think you are so special that you can turn around and shove everyone else out? What are you so afraid of? Oh no! Maybe your childern will learn a second language! I'm so sick of Americans and their hoity-toity behaviour and their arrogant proprietary attitudes.

In case you are wondering, I was born and raised in this country. But I am married to a foreigner and he was raised in a VERY different environment with a facist government. If our immigration laws were stronger, I might not have met him. Yes, he went through hell to get his citizenship, but it's hell for everyone.

I'm not saying that we should open our doors and let the whole world come in. But this wall-building sh*t and the obsessive anti-immigrant laws are so excessive. There has to be a balance. How can we spread democracy and freedom if we shut ourselves in and refuse to lead by example? Oh yeah, I forgot -- by blowing up major cities and innocent civilians with the premise of searching for imaginary WMDs.

Good on ya Lucy! Mate America is a bloody affluent country. Gd forbid others wanting to live a life free from poverty, persecution, disease and early death.

Susannah

Good on ya Lucy! Mate America is a bloody affluent country. Gd forbid others wanting to live a life free from poverty, persecution, disease and early death.

Susannah

There are a few affluent companies who are in this country. Otherwise, the poverty rate (especially for children) is worse than for the rest of the developed world. (the definition of a "developed country" varies)

Compared to other modernized countries, we have a lower standard of living, less savings, more debt. We work longer hours, and take fewer vacations. I'm so sick of the rest of the world looking at us like we have life handed to us. As for myself and most people I know, we work very hard just have a place to live, and food to eat, and to care for our children. Because of popular media and reality tv, it is a worldwide misconception that americans are wealthy. A very small percentage of americans are wealthy, and for the past thirty years, accounting for inflation, american's salaries have been in steady decline, while the small percentage of wealthy are by comparison to the average american, wealthier than ever before.

Australia-- 12.6 % of your children live in poverty. (Australia, you are considered a "rich" nation, along with the US and most european nations)

Of all "rich" nations, the only nation with more children living in poverty than the US, is Mexico. US has 22.4% of it's children living in poverty, and mexico has 26.2% of it's children living in poverty.

http://www.unicef-icdc.org/publications/pdf/repcard1e.pdf

Evilah

Hey, I reckon if you can put a roof over your head and pay the bills, you are rich compared to a lot of the world's population to be honest.

Australia has a pretty fascist immigration policy also.

The Government locks up women and children in desert detention centres who are only trying to seek asylum. Its pretty bad.

Susannah

But there are plenty of people here who don't have a roof over their heads either. Michigan has one of the worst unemployment rates in the country. In my neighborhood alone there are over 20 foreclosed homes because people can't afford the cost of living. And I live in a pretty "poor" area. The auto industry is what keeps this state going and with the decline in that and the selling of Chrysler things are only looking to get worse around here. I was unemployed for 6 months before I got my current job and I was unable to recieve any state aid. Why? Because my husband made $500 too much. Maybe if there were not so many strains on our resources from people who are here illegally those of us who do live here can get the help that we need. In those 6 months I would have taken any job I could get. I applied for positions at places that I don't even care to mention. Heck I have had my degree for 4 years now and I have yet to get a position in my field of study. The economy sucks and we are not as rich as everyone thinks we are. We need to use our money to take care of ourselves. If that makes me selfish then so be it.

The word to not forget is ILLEGAL!!!!! The point being, if they're going to come here to work and better their lives...we welcome them when they follow the proper channels. I don't think it's racist to get sick of my husbands LEGAL tax dollars going higher and higher to pay for ILLEGALS to benefit from them. It's not fair, it's not right and there's just no way around it.

Oh and for the record, I've been to third world countries...the most third world I've been to was in Peru, on the banks of the Manatee Tributary of the Amazon River. Mexico looks like paradise in comaprison! These people have n-o-t-h-i-n-g! I watched three little children share a three inch peice of bread...I saw children with very little clothing and watched them wander off into the jungle to find yucca root so they could eat that day. So, my opinion is NOT a short-sighted one. I welcome, as do most of the people on this tread, anyone that comes here through legal channels.

Now, it's NOT easy to get a visa and legal alien card. You have to have a skill that can not be found in the area you're coming to and thus be sponsored by a company to obtain a visa OR you have to marry a citizen...and THAT is no cake walk either, I speak from personal experience. NOTHING is private...they want PROOF that you're residing together as man and wife! Pictures, bills, affidavits from friends and neighbors! Still, if you come illegally, if you won't adapt to the culture, you need to get legal and adapt or else go back. If they feel this country is so much better and are dying to live here, then they should want to adapt.

To our Canadians: I heard that you have to pay BIG money to immigrate there...like $100k is this true? Just wondering :grouphug: I already live in Wisconsin and wouldn't DREAM of moving further north, much less pay big money to do it. It's too cooooooold for me