BJean

patty: "When Obama said that America wasn't a Christian Nation, he threw the first stone. That Christmas, and not Yom Kippur or Ramadan, is a national holiday in America indicates our Christian Heritage. That does not mean that non Christians and unbelievers do not have a right to live here freely. The Christian dissenter should not have the right to censor the believer. Although they try at every option to do just that. " That sounds very intolerant to me. "Christian dissenter"?? "Censor the believer"?? The right wing faction of the Christian religion wants to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that their beliefs are the only true beliefs and that other religions should be deemed secondary religions in this country. They want the government to put the Christian faith at the top of their to-do list. If the government did that, they would be practicing intolerance and forcing exclusion on millions upon millions of American citizens. That is why left wingers know that having a secular form of government is the only fair and right form of government for a free nation.

Is it a surprise to anyone that the right wingnuts would stoop that low?

chicamam, please tell me more about your non-profit insurance company. I had no idea that there were companies who were providing insurance to folks and not making a profit. Who's behind the formation of that company?

Devana you took the words right out of my mouth. Since chicamam knows all about the profit and loss and big picture of insurance companies (at least hers) it would be very beneficial to know exactly what the profit was for her company last year. Most insurance companies who are in the medical insurance business reaped billions last year. At least that is what has been reported. If chicamam's company isn't among one of those, why are they in the business? Having said that, I agree that high insurance premiums are not the WHOLE picture. I heard that a pharmacutical company has decided to cut the costs of a particular life-saving medicine so that certain poor people in a poor country could afford to get it and save lives. I ask you, who's paying for that? If it is coming out of the pharmacutical's profits, what the hell? Why aren't they cutting costs to Americans who have made those profits possible? If they're just passing the costs on to those people who are paying the higher prices, what the hell? We're paying that bill too. I imagine what's happening is that our government is giving them some kind of subsidy or giving them a tax incentive to do it. In any case, unless the company is cutting the margin of profit they're making, we're paying. If I am wrong about this, please straighten me out.

Yes, the twins are identical which I learned is pretty uncommon. Our DIL had to have surgery to correct a problem called TTTS Syndrome. Very scary, but all turned out well. My DD has a little girl, but after that lost a boy at full-term, and lost another baby early in the process after that. They vow not to ever try again. So, having a healthy baby and healthy mother are what is important. It makes thinking about whether it's a boy or girl, totally unimportant. I'm sure yours will be fine and I hope you enjoy the pregnancy and all the fun experiences that brings.

I'm very sorry about you losing your husband, Cleo's. There are so many things I'd like to say about that and discuss with you, but I suppose this isn't the time or place. But I do know that grandchildren fill your life with joy and lots of fun activities. I have a very special bond with my granddaughter that I wouldn't trade for anything in the world. And my twin grandsons are so much like their dad (my son) it is almost like going back in time to when he was a child. Great memories!

patty: "I am all for the government taking care of infrastructure, highways, military defense, national protection, etc., but this is too much! It needs to be halted!" What needs to be halted? These nutty generalizations are what need to be halted. It's too easy to cry foul play when it comes to taxes. Petition your elected officials. Let them know how you feel and I am sure that you'll have nothing more to worry about. kartman I agree with you about how the stories and scriptures in the Bible are used, ad absurdum, as proof of the merits of the political cause du jour.

Congratulations Cleo's Mom!!!!! That news is absolutely fabulous! I hope that everything goes well throughout the next 9 months and your grandbaby is a healthy, beautiful little being. I am very happy for you!

And btw, Cleo'sMom, I appreciate you taking the time to post scriptures that support your beliefs. I had been wanting to do that, but just hadn't taken the time.

Cleo'sMom, when you said: "You've heard the saying that the bible can be used to support or deny any position, so I submit this:" you were absolutely correct, as evidenced by the fact that Patty has used those very scriptures to emphasize to us that God doesn't look favorably upon those who do good for others through government programs of any kind. He only looks favorably upon those who personally do something for someone else. So if you want to get into heaven, don't pay your taxes to help anyone - you must physically go find the poor unfortunates without food and clothing, and feed them from your own hands. Tell you what patty, you interpret the Bible your way and I'll use my own education and sensibilities to interpret it my way.

Cleo'sMom: I was only speaking for myself, but the article you cited sure says it well for most everybody.

Thank you patty for listing the author of your quote. It is not right to use someone's words and pass them off as your own. I agree with certain points that you make in your longer post above, but I find that the extreme way that you present them to be incorrect. I attribute that to your inability to fully understand the reasoning behind the left's political positions. (Although I will certainly admit that I do not speak for all left wingers.) I can say that for myself, you do not have it right. I am not motivated in any way by the government to do my work. I do not like paying taxes anymore than you do. I don't approve of giving government handouts to those who are unwilling to upgrade their way of life by using hard work. But I will say that when someone is down, sometimes they need a helping hand. We would be bad people, a bad nation, if we allowed our extremely poor and unfortunate citizens to languish in poverty and die from extremely horrible conditions. Guess that makes me a bleeding heart liberal, eh? But you're quite incorrect when you suggest that having a program that helps someone in need always keeps them down. The government programs (especially those in the past) that enable folks to stay "on the dole" without any way to help them become a part of mainstream society are wrong. But helping people in serious need is not. All that being said, I believe that our health care in America has suffered and is continuing to suffer at the hands of health care providers who gain monetarily by people being sick. The insurance companies are controlling our medical treatment, our medicine and our very lives. This is wrong on so many levels. Nothing about Christianity can justify what is happening to Americans and their medical care. We're talking about a corrupt system. Rotten to the core. And it must be changed. It is costing way too much in dollars and it is costing way too much in lives. We're idiots if we continue with the system we have. Absolute idiots. Btw, I do not agree with the latest proposal that has been made public! It's a sham and will only prove to make the problems worse.

patty: "That was then and this is now. More people feel opposed to what Obama is doing than for it, NOW. Before the election, they thought he wouldn't be a blowhard spendohiolic. Now they see him for what he really is." I take this as proof that you do not expose yourself to information from both sides of the story. If you did, I don't think you'd be comfortable saying that your viewpoint is the same as the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans aren't screaming at the top of their lungs, ranting and raving on Fox and elsewhere, and making threats against both the speaker and the president, just the people you seem to be listening to are doing that

plain: "Wow....I didn't know Sirhan Sirhan was a republican! Scandalous! And I'm pretty sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was a communist, not a conservative. And....let's see....Wasn't it "Manson Family" girl Squeaky Fromme (probably not too conservative if she joined the Manson Family, I'd bet) that tried to kill president Ford? And howz about John Hinckley Jr? Clearly he is idolized by the republican party. "See, that's where your arguement breaks down. Anybody willing to murder a government official is crazy. It's not really a left vs. right as much as it is a sane vs. insane thing (IMO)." I didn't say that "conservatives" did the killing. I said take a look at who has been killed. And it isn't the right wingers. I thought you told me that you didn't watch Fox network. Hmmm, musta been someone else. I must say that it sure explains a lot about how you post and what you say.

Thanks kartman, you're right.. we ARE buddies.

And some of us didn't see a dime of it. And yet my health insurance premiums are out of sight.

Oh my, Cleo's it's in a nutshell what you and I have been saying but we've been using more words and bullet points. She said it so well it deserves to be posted here so nobody misses it: Two destructive trends appear to be growing in U.S. culture. One is an "in your face" culture built upon anger, hatred, bigotry and ignorance. The second is a culture of fear built on a lack of accurate information or, at times, intentionally crafted misinformation. We observe both daily in news reports. You readily recognize the script: "I am right, you are wrong. Period." Or, "There is a conspiracy of (fill in the blank -- liberals? media? government? whomever?) out to destroy our American way." Sadly, many people accept leadership mainly from talk-show personalities who feed on stirring hatred, anger and fear and who have little or no personal experience of working within constitutionally shaped systems we call government. To observe Americans shouting angrily about "big government" or "socialism" makes no sense when our pockets/purses hold Social Security and Medicare cards, our pensions and savings accounts are federally insured, our children are educated in a public school system, we drive daily on a massive system of interstate highways and bridges or ride mass transit sustained by federal dollars, we are protected globally by our country's military forces -- the list could go on and on. Who do people imagine that "government" is? It is time to tone down the mindless anger before we self-destruct. The immediate need is for collaboration, citizens and elected leaders in both political parties, to continue the genuinely American tradition of building society on the principle of the common good. SISTER PATRICIA McCANN Oakland

patty people who want a government that is not based on your Christian beliefs are not necessarily people who do not believe in God or have Christian principles. You are painting everyone with a very biased brush. Including President Obama who merely stated the facts. A person who believes that we should have a secular government may be totally motivated by fairness and inclusion, as opposed to exclusion and unfairness. Your insistence that the government should be ruled purely by your Christian beliefs is not fair to those who do not share your beliefs. And this is their country just as much as it is your country. People who are not born again Christians may still have quite strong beliefs in God and the Bible. And people of other faiths and who believe in a different god should be treated the same under the laws of our government as you are. If we were to adopt laws that are based purely in the Christian theological concepts that you espouse, the laws could be viewed as biased and exclusionary to those who do not share those same theological beliefs. I cannot understand why this is such an impossible thing for you to grasp and accept. It would be like Ben Franklin saying that because he is a Christian, no one is accepted in this country unless they first have a test to find out if they are Christian or at least agree to worship his religion as he believes it. Just isn't and wasn't that way. And it never will be.

Right Cleo'sMom. And I can never understand how exactly the middle class can afford to support the Republican agenda like they do. And I can't understand it if they don't recognize the results of a Republican administration as being the catastrophy that it created. Not just the economy, but in nearly every respect. And patty, what is your source of information saying tort reform in Texas is working? And in what way is it working? Has it changed the ability of Texans to get affordable insurance? I'm a Texan and it sure hasn't helped me get lower insurance rates OR better medical treatment or drugs. Two doctors have turned down my insurance and I've had to pay all of my expenses incurred by getting treatment from them. My rates are exorbitant and yet every year I get less and less coverage. And although we are "lucky" enough to be able to even get coverage through DH's former employer, we would like to change companies, to the one we use to provide healthcare insurance for our employees, but the company we use for our employees won't provide coverage for us. We both have preexisting conditions. Meaning we've both had surgery. Please explain in detail how tort reform in Texas has benefitted me - as a solid citizen of the great state. I need you to tell me what kind of job my Republican dominated legislature has provided me. Cause living here isn't revealing anything of the sort.

patty: "NO, this is about the government as a whole, no matter what color their skins may be." That may be true for you patty, but for many people it is about the fact that the president is not a WASP. I found it interesting while trying to catch up on this thread to read that you continue to think that tort reform will fix the healthcare system. It won't. It will put more money in the hands of the insurance companies which has never improved our health care. It has only proved to make health care less attainable for some and keeping those of us who are insured from making our own decisions about our medical treatment. I'm not saying that tort reform isn't needed. The huge class action lawsuits should probably be controlled in some way. But I will shout to the top of my lungs (as if anyone would listen) that we the people should always have the right to legal redress if we have been wronged by malpractice or gross negligence. You say you are worried about the government controling everything but you want to take away the individual's rights to keep the government from controlling us. I don't get it. plain, what do you mean I "claim" to support an individual's right to own a gun? Nice to know that what I say makes such an impression on you that you'd use me to make your lame case. The radical, extremist right wing in this country has been far more lethal in the process of taking the law into their own hands than the left has. And I challenge anyone to come up with solid facts to dispute it. Unless you've been living under a rock, all you have to do is read the paper or do a very small amount of research to figure that out. In the big picture, think about the people who have been assassinated. And it sure isn't the right wing or Republicans who've been killed or blown up. kartman you live in a more liberal state. So I think your experience is a little different than for some of us. I live in a very conservative state and my personal experience is different from say, you or someone who's from Vermont. But as a nation, it's the people who are angry over religious issues, the government's supposed domination, race, abortion, gun control, health care reform, etc., who are not just vocal but who are willing to use violence to demonstrate their beliefs. That is why it is so irresponsible for our politicians and the "news" media to encourage people to show up with guns and encouraged to shout down the opposition and encouraged to bring what might normally be a dissenting voice to such a fevered pitch that they have become dangerous. I think we can all agree that anyone who uses guns or bombs when trying to make a statement against something, are wackos. But when someone loses a life or a building or a child in that building, to them it really doesn't matter a lot to which side the perp leans. I believe in our right to peaceful demonstration. I believe in our right to free speech. I do not believe in some wack job's right to use lethal weapons to make their points. It is dangerous and I hold some of the nuts on the Fox network and some of the nutty politicians responsible for the way their disagreement with the left has become so volatile. They're being irresponsible and they should be called on it - like the president has said he would.

Some people do not believe that the only way people will get into heaven is exclusively through the route you have described. We think we are just as correct in our thinking and believing as you think you are. Many of us have spent as much time studying, praying and reflecting and more studying of the Bible as those of you who think you have the only true ticket that will allow entrance into God's heaven. I am sure it is baffling to you to some extent because I am sure that you believe that your reading and studying of the Bible has given you the only real truth and insight for inclusion into the kingdom of God. And I have no doubt that you think those of us who disagree with you are going to hell. But we do not agree with you and we do not believe as you do and we are just as likely to be right as you are. Furthermore, since we do disagree with your single-minded approach to the Bible, we may from time to time feel sorry for you and try to help you. Because we believe strongly that your way is very wrong and that you will not be judged to be worthy of God's literal presence, upon Jesus' return. We are only trying to help you by having this discussion.

patty you have elevated yourself to such a high up, superior, holier-than-thou level, I'm sure it would be impossible for me to look down on you. To answer your question: I have tried to explain on other threads that I do believe that you are too narrow in your thinking and that God is not happy with people who use the Bible against others in the way that you do and that you need to change your thinking from narrow-minded, hell, fire and brimstone condemnation-to-hell thoughts, to focus on love, goodness, sweetness, caring, non-judgemental, big-hearted, steadfast and true thoughts. You know, like me. :tongue2:

Wong Way Wilson.

patty: "Make sure you scroll down this page a bit to view the protestors. "But before you do, please take a moment to read his every word, for they are in complete alignment to how I feel on this issue." Seriously, patty? Seriously? Because how could anyone here not know how you feel about this issue?

Well although I think it's big of you not to hate me patty, I hope you realize that you posted it just below something that someone else had posted. Then you post a comment that you think two wrongs don't make a right (I shortened the idea a bit) and then you go on to post all the stuff about protestors who were against Bush. Don't you know how disengenuous that seems? And how your credibility suffers because of things like that?