I have reached my first goal and want to focus on my body composition (lose a little more fat). I have started researching intermittent fasting and it seems like a very safe way to encourage the body to burn more fat, level blood sugar spikes, and lower insulin levels. I really like that you don't have to be eating a certain diet to take advantage of the benefits it has to offer. I am currently listening to the book "The Complete Guide to Fasting" by Dr. Jason Fung and Jimmy Moore.

Have any of you tried this or are doing it long term after having WLS? Can you share your experiences? Thank you!!!

I experienced dawn phenomenon the first year I was diagnosed with type 2 so I am very familiar with it. My liver would dump anytime I had not eaten for more then 4 hours. For me this was solved by getting my liver to release its stored glycogen. This can be done by eating very low carb for a period of time and exercise. Oddly enough it is also one of the benefits of IF. I was not aware of this type of eating method at that time or I would have tried it for sure.

28 minutes ago, FluffyChix said:

Breakfast would be 6g carbs, 3oz Protein and fat to satisfy at 7am (no more than 30 mins of waking). Next day you would have the same meal comp at the same time and that repeats for each meal. lunch and dinner are both 12g carbs, 3oz protein and fat to satisfy. Then meals spaced 4-6hours between. This is all to keep the body functioning on as little outside insulin treatment as possible.

30g carbs plus 63g protein equals 372 calories. This is probably a ketogenic diet, or at least borderline keto.. and you'd have to eat 4.5oz of fat a day to bring it up to 1500 calories. Half a cup of oil, spread out on 3 big salads (That's how I imagine this working).

It's not a bad idea, but it's not surprising he got control of blood sugar levels.. Basically people are getting 3 salads a day with a small amount of meat on each one, a few nuts, a bunch of dressing, and a side of corn or beans at noon and night. No dairy except cheese, no fruit, no grains.

I think it'd be fun for about a day... but what can you do when you have a disease? You do what you can to make it go away (or as close to "away" as possible). Kudos to the good doctor for formulating a plan to help people. And, of course, it wouldn't HAVE to be salad all the time.. an omelet in the morning, meat, potatoes, and veg at night.. doesn't sound so bad...

24 minutes ago, FluffyChix said:

Dawn Phenomenon--where the pancreas dumps it's insulin somewhere in the wee small hours of night (around 4am).

Just an FYI, it is the liver dumping stored glycogen that causes dawn phenomenon. That is if we are talking about the same thing.

1 minute ago, Berry78 said:

30g carbs plus 63g protein equals 372 calories. This is probably a ketogenic diet, or at least borderline keto.. and you'd have to eat 4.5oz of fat a day to bring it up to 1500 calories. Half a cup of oil, spread out on 3 big salads (That's how I imagine this working).

It's not a bad idea, but it's not surprising he got control of blood sugar levels.. Basically people are getting 3 salads a day with a small amount of meat on each one, a few nuts, a bunch of dressing, and a side of corn or Beans at noon and night. No dairy except cheese, no fruit, no grains.

I think it'd be fun for about a day... but what can you do when you have a disease? You do what you can to make it go away (or as close to "away" as possible). Kudos to the good doctor for formulating a plan to help people. And, of course, it wouldn't HAVE to be salad all the time.. an omelet in the morning, meat, potatoes, and veg at night.. doesn't sound so bad...

It is a keto diet. The balance for weight loss comes with addition of fat. Dr. B. is a T1 70+ years old with no diabetic neuropathy. His A1c is in the 4s and he takes only 5 units of fast acting insulin per meal. His patients do very well...they are all non WLS patients. not all salads. You would have to read his stuff. But very simple meals for sure.

Quote

The Biology of the Dawn Phenomenon

In normal, non-diabetic people, blood sugar and insulin secretion remain very constant overnight. Just before dawn, insulin can rise a small amount. In this sense, the Dawn Phenomenon exists in non-diabetic people as well—the phenomenon isn’t as large and because non-diabetics are not insulin resistant, their body secretes insulin and the cells respond by taking up the sugar from the blood, causing only a slight, mostly unnoticed rise in blood sugar.

However, in diabetic individuals, the Dawn Phenomenon is much more significant. Anywhere from 10-50% of people with T2D and T1D experience the dawn phenomenon.

It is believed that the rise in blood sugar during the early morning hours is due to the release of glucose from the liver—this can be referred to as a liver dump. This is due to the rise in growth hormone, cortisol, glucagon and adrenaline (epinephrine), all of which can function to stimulate the release of sugar and the synthesis of new sugar (glucose) from the liver.

Why the rise in these hormones? Because during the night, the blood sugars will drop—and when they drop below a certain level, the body reads that as a signal that it is time to release more sugar. Remember, sugars like glucose are the preferred fuel for cells and these hormones are supposed to be regulating it and keeping the cells of the body “fueled up” and ready to go, particularly in the morning.

https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/what-you-should-know-about-diabetes-and-the-dawn-phenomenon/

Ok, so first your blood sugar drops during the night (probably because you haven't eaten for a while). Hormones come along to say, hey, we need more sugar! So the liver puts out sugar. The pancreas then says, oops.. too much sugar, let me put some insulin on that. In a typical person, that brings blood sugar back down, but in a diabetic, the insulin is missing or ineffective, so the blood stays over-sweet.

20 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

https://www.thediabetescouncil.com/what-you-should-know-about-diabetes-and-the-dawn-phenomenon/

Ok, so first your blood sugar drops during the night (probably because you haven't eaten for a while). Hormones come along to say, hey, we need more sugar! So the liver puts out sugar. The pancreas then says, oops.. too much sugar, let me put some insulin on that. In a typical person, that brings blood sugar back down, but in a diabetic, the insulin is missing or ineffective, so the blood stays over-sweet.

Yep that’s it in a nut shell. And there is more than one way to fix it. Different strategies work for different people.

Yep, that's it. @Berry78

2 hours ago, Waler said:

I will state again there is not magic formula, and to base things on the way our ancestors did things is utter nonsense.

This is like throwing out the bath with the bath water just because it gets cold. Sure some things our ancestors did would not be smart to continue (running around naked, is one..lol), however to say that we cannot learn important things from them and shouldn't incorporate them into our lifestyle where appropriate and beneficial is short sighted. IMHO

Aww man! I wanna run around naked.. no one else wants that, but what a freeing experience!

Ah well, prolly be cold, anyway.

This is why I like reading about the diet/lifestyles of those that DID live a long time, so we know what may work.

My grandmother lived to be 98. She worked until she was 85 as a cook. She grew up in a farming family and ALWAYS had her garden. Sugar sweetened desserts about once a week, no soda, home made meals 3 times a day, all food groups present and accounted for. (I spent a summer with her as a child, and was struck by how much cooking there was).

When the kids would run through before supper, hungry! Hungry!, she had a plate of cut vegetables on the table from which they could help themselves.

I'll have to ask my Aunts what they remember...

It has become painfully obvious to me that no matter how many facts and how much medical data I try to bring to the table you have obviously already made your mind up that is the magic bullet you are looking for. I have tried to be a voice of sound fact based reason and you will nit pick and try to find a loop hole with every statement just to try to support the way you want to do thing. Well doing thing the way you though were right brought you to the same place the rest of us here are at. We all got hit with the slap of reality that we were doing things wrong period. If you want to try some fad, and that is exactly what it is a fad, than by all means be my guest. But when it fails to give you the results you want and it will. I will tell you the same magic formula I gave you today. To reach your weight goals requires a balanced high protein low fat diet, exercise and time, that's it that is all there is too it. Don`t take my word for it, don`t take a doctors word for it, and don`t listen to your nut. because there years of knowledge and experience means nothing compared to your research and internet information. I am finished wasting my time with this and I feel sorry for anyone who follows you on this crusade as they will fail right beside you and wonder what happened and why this was yet another thing that did not work to help them. Oh and you are correct I am not a nutritionist and never made any claim to be. But I have seen many people screw up there livers and kidneys with fad diets. I look at the evidence all the time elevated ALT and AST, and people with high levels of ketones from be catabolic from "fasting".

Good day and have a wonderful life

Edited October 27, 20178 yr by Waler

There is some research (positive) on twitter re IF i would spell it out. Posted by bariatric surgeons. Im chicken to try it.

Sent from my SM-G930V using BariatricPal mobile app

On twitter? You won't find research period on twitter.

There isn't any scholarly research on it with Bariatric patients.... yet. Hopefully there will be one day. There plenty out there with other populations, though, including the overweight, diabetics, cancer patients, etc.

I don’t ever see myself consuming 2500 calories in a day. That may be what the typical American person on the western diet eats, but that is not healthy.
I see your point though.

That's what I eat! I'm at goal and active, but that's what I need to maintain at 135-ish as a 5'6" woman, so not always unhealthy!

2 hours ago, Apple1 said:

Just an FYI, it is the liver dumping stored glycogen that causes dawn phenomenon. That is if we are talking about the same thing.

Sorry, yes, that's it exactly. I mixed it up in my head! Thanks! I will go back and correct mine so I don't mislead anyone. Dang! My editing window is now closed so I can't change it.

Edited October 27, 20178 yr by FluffyChix

31 minutes ago, Waler said:

has become painfully obvious to me that no matter how many facts and how much medical data I try to bring to the table you have obviously already made your mind up that is the magic bullet you are looking for. I have tried to be a voice of sound fact based reason and you will nit pick and try to find a loop hole with every statement just to try to support the way you want to do thing.

What medical data have you posted? What Study? I like to read all I can about something before I try it.

I sure hope this thread leads other to research this for themselves and not take my word for it. You seem convinced we are all just following some fad diet and you ignore the data I did post. I like debating and I don’t understand why you are getting so upset about it. @FluffyChix and @Berry78 debate with me all the time. I like it. You don’t have to be right or wrong. You just have a different opinion.

5 minutes ago, jess9395 said:

That's what I eat! I'm at goal and active, but that's what I need to maintain at 135-ish as a 5'6" woman, so not always unhealthy!

Good to know. I just never imagine eating that much,, lol... I am so full eating 1000-1300.