Just saw it on the news.

Though I have great sympathy for the illegal immigrants and, moreover, my political viewpoints are usually considered to be leftish, I am inclined to view this particular issue as one which is far too complicated for well-intentioned foreigners to be weighing in on. It is my understanding from the little which I have read in Canadian newspapers that since 2000 there has been something in the way of an explosion in the numbers of illegals currently living in the United States. One article stated that there has been an overall increase from 12 million to 40 million individuals within less than 7 years. A different article indicates that there is an estimated total of 12 million illegals but states that 4 million of these arrived after Bush became president. Both articles agree that the arrival of illegals, historically a problem, really snowballed after Bush was elected.

These articles have also discussed the effect which the arrival of this mass of workers have had on the American economy. It seems it has driven down the standard of living of the American working class in real terms for businesses can get workers to work for less money and fewer benefits. Business owners benefit. Working folk lose out. The rift between the business and the working classes ends up by widening.

Illegals tend to live in the southern states and these are often the least affluent states. One of the articles published in a Canadian newspaper noted that North Carolina paid an estimated $10-million to educate the children of illegals in 1995 and $210-million in 2005. While Canada has her own share of illegals the numbers are not of this magnitude.

Of course these factoids which I have just noted are gathered from reading our newspapers up here in Canada and this information comes from our two more admittedly middle to right wing national newspapers. (Because I am such a natural lefty I only read centrist and rightist reportage, eh.) Nevertheless, it does strike me that the problem with which the United States is currently engaged is quite different from the humanitarian issues with which both Canada and Australia have chosen, and rightfully so, to deal. American is currently experiencing an uncontrolled flood of migrants and this has caused some considerable social and financial upheaval with respect to the country's infrastructure. The one class who is benefitting is that group who is taking advantage of the cheap labour.

And the American government is doing nothing much about this issue. By this I am suggesting that at the local and state levels those laws controlling businessmen from employing illegals seem to be ineffective. And at the federal level the concept of building a big wall between the two countries is absolutely brainless! There should be on-going initiatives worked out between the two countries in order that Mexico be developed, upgraded and become a valuable working partner in the North American trading block. This is good planning, this is humane, and we must remember that we will need all the friends we can make for the next century is, global speaking, going to be a challenge, eh.

Very well said, Green.

Generally speaking (dumb to do, I know) Americans do not think as globally as Europeans and I guess some Canadiens do, at least in terms of our nation wanting open borders and allowing pretty much just anybody to become an American citizen.

We are very self-centered. We love our country and we love our way of life. Anything that threatens us will cause Americans to rise up en masse against that threat. (That's why initially, on Bush's word, most Americans approved of our attacks on Iraq. I must add that I never did.) Having millions of illegals in this country is infuriating because of the work we do to keep America great, and all of these unaccounted for people are not contributing (as far as we're concerned) to keeping America great.

Although that seems to be the consensus about illegal aliens for some of us, it also seems that Dubya, and some Congress people think having them here to keep the cost of labor down is contributing to America's greatness. Well if we can believe him and Congress that the definition of greatness in America is capitalism, I guess they're right.

Hey, Australian 60 minutes did a big expose on Benny Hinn a couple of years ago. He had the chutzpah to tell some parents of terminally ill children that if they would only believe more faithfully ,their children would be healed completely. Absolute shyster in my book. And he has a fugly hairdo;)

Susannah

Same thing happened to a friend of mine years ago. She took her daughter, who was born with CP, to an Oral Roberts revival. Roberts himself laid hands on the child, but no miracle cure was forthcoming. He told my friend that it was her fault - that she did not truly believe. What a jerk.

Funny thing about televangelists, if someone is cured they take all the credit, if they are not cured it is because of the lack of faith by the sick person.

That whole mindset reminds me of people who pray to God that they win the ballgame. If they win, they thank God. If they lose, it's because they must not have had enough faith so that God would help them. I've never heard them consider the idea that the other team might have more faith and therefore God answered THEIR prayers first.

When Oral Roberts got started in tents, he was incredibly believable and charismatic. Then he went on local TV and one of his lines was, "Put your hands on your television while I pray for you and you will be healed." My SIL worked for him right out of college. She was one of the "counters." She opened envelopes and tallied the take. It was a large secure room and it was just brimming with cash. They treated her like a convict. It was bizzare! Reminded us of Scrooge McDuck.

When Oral Roberts got started in tents, he was incredibly believable and charismatic. Then he went on local TV and one of his lines was, "Put your hands on your television while I pray for you and you will be healed." My SIL worked for him right out of college. She was one of the "counters." She opened envelopes and tallied the take. It was a large secure room and it was just brimming with cash. They treated her like a convict. It was bizzare! Reminded us of Scrooge McDuck.

I used to know a woman who worked in Pat Robertson's mail room and she was treated the same way. She also said that most of the letters contained prayer requests. They were instructed to remove the cash/checks and throw everything else away. No one ever read them, let alone prayed over them.

I'm about as bleeding heart Liberal as you can get, but if you live in a border state, the whole issue of illegal aliens becomes much more personal. On a national level, the tide of illegal immigrants may not be devistating, but to border states, it has created financial and social chaos.

Mexican nationals do not, as a rule, swim across the Rio Grande and keep going until they reach Chicago. They stop just across the border and set up housekeeping, along with millions just like themselves. We (Texas and Arizona) end up supporting way more than our fair share of illegal immigrants. And it pisses us off. Just my shiny dime's worth, but if you are too far away to feel the heat, you have no idea how hot it is in the kitchen.

I'm about as bleeding heart Liberal as you can get, but if you live in a border state, the whole issue of illegal aliens becomes much more personal. On a national level, the tide of illegal immigrants may not be devistating, but to border states, it has created financial and social chaos.

Mexican nationals do not, as a rule, swim across the Rio Grande and keep going until they reach Chicago. They stop just across the border and set up housekeeping, along with millions just like themselves. We (Texas and Arizona) end up supporting way more than our fair share of illegal immigrants. And it pisses us off. Just my shiny dime's worth, but if you are too far away to feel the heat, you have no idea how hot it is in the kitchen.

Hi Carlene,

I just wanted to add one little thing about this and I will skip back to the original thread on this issue. I grew up in El Paso, Texas. This is about as close to the border you can get in Texas. They used to all joke that El Paso was the capital of Mexico, LOL. Anyways, yes it is a little more personal to me because of where I live (DFW) and have grown up. But even so, I still have not become jaded because of this. In fact, I have become more compassionate.

It affects me, socially and financially. Between my husband and I, we pay about $1200.00 in taxes each month. I can sure find something better to do with that money. But just like providing welfare, if it helps just a couple of needy people, who just want to work and provide a better life for their families, I'm ok with that.

The problem is that the sheer numbers of illegals flooding the border states has distorted the economies and the infrastructures of these states. This is why it would be better for this problem to be solved. If, for instance, these illegals were made legal by being granted work permits then businessmen would be required to pay them what they must pay any other worker and the standard of living for the working class would not be dropping. Another approach would be for the federal government to work with the government of Mexico to fix the problem from inside Mexico by developing work initiatives and improving the infrastructure inside that country; indeed, the two go hand in hand. And for your state and local laws barring the employment of illegals to be strictly enforced. Mexico is a land with a lot of potential and we are presently seeing economic miracles occur in China and India. Why not Mexico?

Carlene it doesn't surprise me one bit that Pat Robertson's outfit operates like that. Personally I think he is very slimey and disengenuous. I know people who truly worship the man. There has to be something different going on in their brains and mine, because it just makes no sense at all to me.

Oral Roberts' counting room was filled with people ripping open and counting. I do not know what they did with all of the prayer requests but I will ask my SIL. I think some of these evangilists start out with passion for Jesus and God's word, but they get blinded by all the $$$s and that becomes their mission. With Pat Robertson, his mission is not only to amass wealth however, he wants political power too. Obviously he's accomplished both goals.

Green in theory I completely agree with you. Mexico is a beautiful country, loaded with so many beautiful people and with a fascinating colorful history. The fact is, I have a little personal knowledge of the corruption in government there, and I have heard about it being an even more prevalent and widespread problem than just the local gendarmes. I am not sure how our two countries can work things out for the little people, when the boys at the top of both our countries are so fat and happy with the status quo.

It affects me, socially and financially. Between my husband and I, we pay about $1200.00 in taxes each month. I can sure find something better to do with that money. But just like providing welfare, if it helps just a couple of needy people, who just want to work and provide a better life for their families, I'm ok with that.

I'm fine with it, too....just as soon as we have provided medical care for all the children who are US citizens, or who came to the US legally. If we have surplus Medicaid funds after that, then we should definitely pay for the care of illegals. Same thing for food stamps, housing assistance, etc. Would you put your kids to bed hungry night after night so you could feed the neighbors' children?

Green in theory I completely agree with you. Mexico is a beautiful country, loaded with so many beautiful people and with a fascinating colorful history. The fact is, I have a little personal knowledge of the corruption in government there, and I have heard about it being an even more prevalent and widespread problem than just the local gendarmes. I am not sure how our two countries can work things out for the little people, when the boys at the top of both our countries are so fat and happy with the status quo.

This is a very good point that you have made. A sad point but a good one. :cry

Carlene it doesn't surprise me one bit that Pat Robertson's outfit operates like that. Personally I think he is very slimey and disengenuous. I know people who truly worship the man. There has to be something different going on in their brains and mine, because it just makes no sense at all to me.

Oral Roberts' counting room was filled with people ripping open and counting. I do not know what they did with all of the prayer requests but I will ask my SIL. I think some of these evangilists start out with passion for Jesus and God's word, but they get blinded by all the $$$s and that becomes their mission. With Pat Robertson, his mission is not only to amass wealth however, he wants political power too. Obviously he's accomplished both goals.

Hahaha Green has always referred to him as Anal Roberts. I guess the Bible is right about wealth and Heaven, eh?

I'm fine with it, too....just as soon as we have provided medical care for all the children who are US citizens, or who came to the US legally. If we have surplus Medicaid funds after that, then we should definitely pay for the care of illegals. Same thing for food stamps, housing assistance, etc. Would you put your kids to bed hungry night after night so you could feed the neighbors' children?

Nope, of course I would take care of my children first. I completely agree. It just gets me that I have to pay to support some people who choose to get over on the system.

If I had to choose between the two, I would much rather my tax dollars go to help someone, legal or illegally, who has the drive to work hard and support their family, then someone who just wants to live off of the government and collect welfare. This is the lesser of two evils in my eyes, sort of speak.

The sad thing is that the children are the only ones that suffer. So I must grit my teeth and allow the government to separate me from my hard earned money (like I have a choice), for the sake of the children.

I agree that these people should come here legally.

I agree that they should learn how to speak our language.

I agree that they should support themselves (shouldn't everybody?)

But if I were in their shoes and was left with no other choice, I would do the same.

I'm fine with it, too....just as soon as we have provided medical care for all the children who are US citizens, or who came to the US legally. If we have surplus Medicaid funds after that, then we should definitely pay for the care of illegals. Same thing for food stamps, housing assistance, etc. Would you put your kids to bed hungry night after night so you could feed the neighbors' children?

I do feel a lot of compassion for those who are less fortunate, and I know I would cross the border illegally if I had to to take care of my family. But still, because resources are finite, I ultimately agree that we have to put ourselves first.

The thing that is hard for me to understand is the solutions being proposed. Many people, not necessarily Carlene, argue that we need to build a border fence and make stiffer penalties for illegals etc. But I just don't see how things like that could work.

If I had a problem with a lot of mice entering my house, and I had big pieces of cheese in every room, what would I do about the mouse problem? Would I build fences and set up mouse traps? Or would I just get rid of the cheese?

People come here because of the jobs and benefits. If we want to stop them, we need to stop making the jobs and benefits available. That means focusing on enforcement of the laws that Americans are breaking, not Mexicans.

There are other parts of the solution that need to be in place as well, like helping Mexico become a decent place to live so people want to stay there.

But one thing is for sure, things like fences and mouse traps will never work. They may help politicians win elections, but they will never actually solve the problem.