One thing that I wish was discussed more often in the media is that obesity is not -- and should not be -- a moral issue. By this I mean that we shouldn't treat fat people as "bad" and thin people as "good." Yet, I recently read a study (Perception: Skinny people aren't lazy but overweight people are) about how cultural perception is that fat people doing the same thing that thin people are doing are perceived as "lazy."

Here's an interesting discussion of this point, coming from a libertarian angle; the idea is that it's YOUR body. If you want to wreck it through being obese, that's your business, just like if you choose to smoke or drink. There is a counter-argument that there are social network costs of being obese, but these hardly justify the shaming. We don't shame people as extensively for not wearing their seatbelts, and yet the costs to society for this behavior are also large.

davidinman(.net) Obesity, Morality, and Shame

My primary care doctor said to me (some years ago) that we'd all be better off once we learn to treat obesity as a medical issue, not a moral one. In other words, if you're very fat, you're not a "bad" (lazy, dirty, slothful) person, but rather potentially an unhealthy one. By doing this, we can stop shaming people who, let's face it, are already ashamed enough, and we can start actually treating the causes and effects of this illness.

When I took my Ethics and Morals class this was discussed as well and I totally agree. . just because people are overweight doesn't make them lazy. Its harder for overweight people to do things like their skinny counterparts, but they are not lazy. There is such a stigma on overweight people and even as a kid I was picked on because of my weight. The most horrible thing was when I was about 10 or so, I weighted about 200 lbs and very well endowed on top. I was at the park playing on swings and these grown men drove by, stopped their car, got out and yelled " hey big tits want some of this" grabbing their crotches. It scared me too death, I will never forget that . . I hated being fat and overweight, I especially hated my boobs and did everything to "hide" them I took a lot of poo from people, including being told that I was lazy and just didn't want to do things except eat, took it even from my own stepdad who always stood there watching me eat and stating "My God girl, don't you know that fat makes fat?". It's heartbreaking. I live in a very overweight city (San Antonio) people are very obese here. I agree that obesity is an illness just like diabetes and cardiac problems. I feel very comfortable here because EVERYONE else is just as obese as I am and i don't hear too much negativity anymore. I also agree with you about "its your body and you should do with it what you want" Just like with abortion, it's HER body, she should do what she feels she should do with it (eek, this is going to open a wasps nest, just my own feelings). . if you take the autonomy from a person, what do you have? People should all have the freedom to do what they want to do with their own bodies. . . just my thoughts. . . thanks for listening. . .

Edited April 28, 201016 yr by thinoneday

The people who are not obese do not know how it feels to be obese. Just like if you are not a different race that gets targeted you don't know how it feels to be in their shoes. Feel like an outcast treated as a less of a human being what gives them the right? Where is my rights as a man our society it is ok to be a junkie alcoholic who abandons their children than being overweight

Oh, I have a whole other level on top of this. I was raised in a very, very conservative Christian community and in high school I was taught that staying slim was considered part of being a good wife and a "virtuous woman". Gluttony is a sin, being overweight was considered a "lack of control", etc. It was a boarding school and I would say 60% of the girls in my dorm had some type of eating disorder. SCARY. Now, of course, although I am a fairly sensible person, I have horrible guilt over being obese, feel that I am letting my husband down in a very fundamental way.

I am also alarmed at how being obese seems to drop you a couple of dozen I.Q. points in people's perceptions....especially health care professionals. I am quite articulate and had always been treated as an intelligent person UNTIL I gained the weight. There was a fundamental shift in the way I was perceived and spoken too. It was, and is, really very surreal...

Oh, I have a whole other level on top of this. I was raised in a very, very conservative Christian community and in high school I was taught that staying slim was considered part of being a good wife and a "virtuous woman". Gluttony is a sin, being overweight was considered a "lack of control", etc.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head about the origins of why we consider obesity a moral issue: gluttony IS one of the seven deadly sins. However, gluttony is literally eating too much -- it's a form of avarice. Many of us eat very reasonably and very reasonable portions, it's just that our bodies (which evolved in the last Ice Age to hold on to every calorie available) haven't caught up with our modern society (where desk work involving almost zero physical activity is the norm).

I am also alarmed at how being obese seems to drop you a couple of dozen I.Q. points in people's perceptions....especially health care professionals. I am quite articulate and had always been treated as an intelligent person UNTIL I gained the weight. There was a fundamental shift in the way I was perceived and spoken too. It was, and is, really very surreal...

Yeah, I get this too. My measured IQ is off the charts (far closer to 200 than 100) and yet my doctor routinely feels the need to explain to me that what I really need is diet and exercise. It makes me really irate; sometimes I want to yell at people "I'm fat, not stupid!"

Of course, research does show that obesity really does lower your cognitive capacity. *sigh* You just can't win...

Edited May 4, 201016 yr by ouroborous

While it's true that many people eat and eat and eat and do NOT become over weight or obese, I myself have abused my body with excessive eating for many years. When I finally got myself physically deformed into an obese body, it was next to impossible for me through diet and exercise to get back into shape and remain that way.

Interesting topic. Personally, I think that obesity, the outward manifestation of excess weight, is a medical issue. The CAUSE and RESPONSE, however, could be moral or medical. The moral issue is very personal and individual - what each one of us feels, how the weight is emotionally handled, and what the weight means for us (creating additional "sins" such as jealousy, envy, lying to cover up bad habits, etc).

The crazy thing is, is that the secular world has pushed for acceptance and personalization of certain groups yet obesity remains the sole condition where shaming and discrimination is allowed and encouraged. Even smokers are separated as individuals from their smoking behaviors. No one on the outside is able to really know if the obesity is due to moral issues or medical. There are ways to address behaviors without shaming the entire person. When people have approached me with sincere concern for my health and/or well being because of destructive behaviors, it wasn't easy to swallow, but I appreciated the care. Unfortunately, overall judgment occurs way more often.

I personally have felt that my obesity is a moral issue. Overeating and taking poor care of the body given to me really gives me a lot of shame. And instead of being able to use that to get it under control, it only feeds my drive to eat. I was trying to explain this to my skinny husband who kept trying to compare weight loss with smoking which he quit cold turkey. I said, imagine if while you were going through withdrawals, everyone you know kept smoking around you. Your coworkers decided to Celebrate all the birthdays of the month by having a smoking party and on several occasions, others brought in their own cigarettes to the office because they didn't want them at the house. You were also invited to several dinner parties where the hosts would be highly disappointed if you did not have a smoke after dinner, even though they knew you are trying to quit. After all, one little one couldn't hurt, could it? In addition, even though you might have gotten through all of that without smoking, someone smells the smoke still lingering on your clothes and decides to make a derogatory comment about this to you. Then you go on vacation and even your spouse expects you to smoke because they don't have the same types at home and when will you ever get to try them again? This is how I feel all the time with food. It is such an uphill battle that I agree you can't understand unless you have been here. And I have learned that the heavier you get, the harder it gets to control and the more moral issue it becomes for me.

Edited June 1, 201016 yr by alreadychosen

I think you may have hit the nail on the head about the origins of why we consider obesity a moral issue: gluttony IS one of the seven deadly sins. However, gluttony is literally eating too much -- it's a form of avarice. Many of us eat very reasonably and very reasonable portions, it's just that our bodies (which evolved in the last Ice Age to hold on to every calorie available) haven't caught up with our modern society (where desk work involving almost zero physical activity is the norm).

Yeah, I get this too. My measured IQ is off the charts (far closer to 200 than 100) and yet my doctor routinely feels the need to explain to me that what I really need is diet and exercise. It makes me really irate; sometimes I want to yell at people "I'm fat, not stupid!"

Of course, research does show that obesity really does lower your cognitive capacity. *sigh* You just can't win...

Hi ouroborous, My IQ is/was quite high too. I think people who over-think sometimes develop psychological disorders, eating was a way of numbing myself. Also had depression badly as a teen and through to a few years ago, was a long term prozac user. Plus being brought up in a very guilt/blame type family, I could

Fortunately advancing age is knocking off those old IQ points so its not so bad now! :tongue_smilie:

Hmmmmmm. There are certainly gluttonous and lazy thin people around.

And there are obese people who eat reasonably, hold down responsible jobs, run around after their kids and lead busy, fulfilling lives.

But there are plenty of fat, lazy people around. and plenty of thin people who are busy dynamos also.

I think you have to deal with people on a person by person basis, their weight has little to do with it. I personally find lazy, dirty, unmotivated people pretty revolting and dont want to have much to do with then. I do judge them, certainly. But they can be thin or fat.

However, the chicken/egg thing. Over my years on LBT I have come across SO many people with that victim mentality, that despite having had weight loss surgery simply refuse to take responsibility for their choices. It really makes me wonder what came first. Are those people fat because of the way they approach things? Or does being massively obese make you become like that through the sheer hopelessness of the disease? Because my choice in having weight loss surgery was I was going to do this and bloody well do it RIGHT. It would never enter my head to do this and then whine about not losing weight when I wasnt doing all I could to lose it.

Because at the end of the day YOU decide what goes into your mouth and how much you move, dont you? So there IS a degree of personal responsibility for it.

But in essence I agree, I certainly dont assume someone is fat because they deserve it due to being lazy and slovenly. Every second person in this country and in yours is affected by the lifestyle we have evolved to live through little real 'fault'.

Edited June 1, 201016 yr by Jachut

But here's the thing.

First, as we all know, you can diet and exercise and work your booty off, and STILL not lose much -- if any -- weight. And the instant you slack off, the weight comes back... with friends. Many normal-weight people simply don't understand this; they can often eat and eat and not gain an ounce, or if they DO gain a pound or two, they just "cut back" for a couple of weeks, and they're back at their goal weight. So, they often assume everyone's body works this way, and they assume that the reason we're fat is because we're simply too "undisciplined" to "cut back a little" (or, my favorite, "put down the Twinkie" -- I don't think I've ever eaten a Twinkie!)

I'm not claiming victim status, and I'm not abdicating responsibility, but to claim that these two cases are equivalent is simply wrong. It's like telling someone in a wheelchair who's having a problem navigating a not-handicap-friendly workplace that "hey, everyone has the responsibility to go to work." Technically it's true, but the devil is, as they say, in the details. People with a genetic predisposition to obesity, people who are middle-aged or older, people who work sedentary jobs (which means that most of your day is sedentary, compared to people who work in, say, construction) -- we are all at a rather severe disadvantage in fighting the Battle of the Bulge.

And many folks like to believe that the only factor in weight loss/gain is "calories in/calories out." It's simply not that simple. Looking at my family -- every single one of whom is obese -- and looking at my friend's family -- every single one of whom is normal weight or skinny, and you just can't escape the conclusion that consumption/exercise is DRAMATICALLY oversimplifying. This other family does, on average, less physical activity than we do, and they eat about what we eat, or even worse. Clearly, genetics play as large of a roll in weight loss and obesity as "personal responsibility" do, and yet "personal responsibility" (which is just a code-word for a moral judgement; IE, you're "irresponsible" if you're fat) is still the only factor considered in society at large.

Compounding this is the fact that, of course, most obese people CAN lose significant amounts of weight -- if they essentially dedicate their lives to that pursuit. Who has that much time, and energy? Who wants to live their entire life for fitness? Fitness should be a means to an end -- an enjoyable life -- not an end in itself (in my opinion).

I think a lot of us (myself included, at times) have internalized this message that "fat people are bad" (lazy, stupid, slovenly). Just like many double standards, we enjoy it when it works for us -- when WLS leads us to drop 100 pounds, we're happy to soak in the praise and respect from those around us. But that is exactly the same thing as the disparagement of those who are still heavy, just the flip side of the coin.

Shaming doesn't make us lose weight, and praise doesn't keep us thin. Unfortunately, for most of us, even diet and exercise don't, on their own, slim us down or keep us thin for significant lengths of time.

Ultimately, as my lead-in post said, whether we couch it as "personal responsibility" or "the deadly sin of gluttony," the result is the same: shaming and judging people (including ourselves) for being overweight or obese achieves nothing of value, for society, or for ourselves. If we're willing to let go of that mentality and treat weight as a medical issue, like we treat, say, diabetes (another illness that has a "personal responsibility" component, but one which we don't routinely shame people for suffering from), we'd all be better off. Fat people would be more willing to discuss and work on their weight, and we'd all be healthier -- physically, and emotionally.

Oh, dont get me wrong, I do agree with you. I was more just musing aloud. this is the kind of crap that rattles around in my brain constantly, bit of a worry hey?

I think a lot of thin people who judge fat ones dont realise they have never tried as hard at ANYTHING in their entire lives as most of us have tried to lose weight.

I'm thinking of my BIL who likes to poke fun at DH for his small tummy, whilst also boasting how he cooked and ate an entire twelve sausages for Breakfast that morning!

This all reminds me of the times I've had in my life being viewed as a "bitch" just because of how I look.

I'm possibly the happiest cheeriest most annoyingly goofy person at work, yet people flock to the proudly bitchy pretty skinny girl instead to be her friend, leaving me in a wake of cold regard.

This is a person who would just yell at her desk to no one in particular about something trivial which is just shattering her day. She can do that, she's pretty. It's cute when you do it and you're not fat. lol

Even my best friend there told me she's just so cute, and we're both overweight.

I wanted to scream.

ARGH! I'll tell you what ticks me off, internalizing the message that thin is a synonym for pretty and vice versa. Shiftling, you are pretty, I can see your picture. This thin girl at your work is not pretty per se, she is priviledged. Those who are used to priviledge demand what they please and their attitude of ownership bends those around them to believe in their superiority. Stop thinking of her as pretty, she sounds hideous to me.

ARGH! I'll tell you what ticks me off, internalizing the message that thin is a synonym for pretty and vice versa. Shiftling, you are pretty, I can see your picture. This thin girl at your work is not pretty per se, she is priviledged. Those who are used to priviledge demand what they please and their attitude of ownership bends those around them to believe in their superiority. Stop thinking of her as pretty, she sounds hideous to me.

Funny thing is that as I have got thinner I feel more inclined to let the dark side of Jane out. You know, the inner child that feels stroppy and has tantrums. Maybe this is because I subconsciously feel 'cute' enough to get away with it? Or maybe I am just a bit calorie starved and grumpy? I know this is something I have to keep a lid on, cos I have years and years worth bubbling around in here !!!!!! Yikes!!! :001_wub::001_wub:

Hahaha.... your funny Jane! I always get a chuckle out of your posts.

Or should I say Janezilla! :scared0:

Peace.

Will

Jane you bring up an interesting point. I have wondered, as I lay in bed fantasizing about life after surgery and life at goal weight. Because I got fat at the end of my teens I would probably go through a period of juvenile behavior, trying to make up for lost time. But I don't think I could ever forget what it's like to be treated like Less Than. Once or twice tho, I'm sure my inner Fem-zilla will probably enjoy a moment of spoiled bratness. =P