One thing that I wish was discussed more often in the media is that obesity is not -- and should not be -- a moral issue. By this I mean that we shouldn't treat fat people as "bad" and thin people as "good." Yet, I recently read a study (Perception: Skinny people aren't lazy but overweight people are) about how cultural perception is that fat people doing the same thing that thin people are doing are perceived as "lazy."

Here's an interesting discussion of this point, coming from a libertarian angle; the idea is that it's YOUR body. If you want to wreck it through being obese, that's your business, just like if you choose to smoke or drink. There is a counter-argument that there are social network costs of being obese, but these hardly justify the shaming. We don't shame people as extensively for not wearing their seatbelts, and yet the costs to society for this behavior are also large.

davidinman(.net) Obesity, Morality, and Shame

My primary care doctor said to me (some years ago) that we'd all be better off once we learn to treat obesity as a medical issue, not a moral one. In other words, if you're very fat, you're not a "bad" (lazy, dirty, slothful) person, but rather potentially an unhealthy one. By doing this, we can stop shaming people who, let's face it, are already ashamed enough, and we can start actually treating the causes and effects of this illness.

lol Jane, I hit that phase once during therapy.. so I don't think it's the weightloss per se. ;D

I should add that when I say pretty I say it from the idiots' point of view. Not mine. Muahahaa.

Edited June 11, 201016 yr by shiftling

Hahaha.... your funny Jane! I always get a chuckle out of your posts.

Or should I say Janezilla! :scared0:

Peace.

Will

Thanks. I definitely feel like this today...

But a couple of glasses of good merlot should have me more like this

Love and Peace to all. x

lol Jane, I hit that phase once during therapy.. so I don't think it's the weightloss per se. ;D

LOL. I don't think working with my DH helps much either. :scared0:

Jane you bring up an interesting point. I have wondered, as I lay in bed fantasizing about life after surgery and life at goal weight. Because I got fat at the end of my teens I would probably go through a period of juvenile behavior, trying to make up for lost time. But I don't think I could ever forget what it's like to be treated like Less Than. Once or twice tho, I'm sure my inner Fem-zilla will probably enjoy a moment of spoiled bratness. =P

It is true I am very resentful of having to work whereas before I didn't mind because I wouldn't be doing much else interesting. Now I just want to party and go out all the time. I have lost my Work MoJo :crying:

I was also expecting somehow to be 30 again when I lost the weight which was my age when I piled it on for the last time. I was disappointed to be a skinnier 50+ person when inside I am 18 but am getting used to it slowly. DH is under strict instructions not to let me go out dressed too young, but I worry about his eyesight.

I would never have a go at a defenceless or blameless person, but put a nannyista authoritarian type in front of me and I will give them what for.

I think it's called Oppositional Defiance Disorder now, but when I were a lad it was called being a naughty brat (which I was). :scared0:

So true Jane! Like old marrieds who seem frozen in the sartorial era of their weddings or coma patients, those of us who became fat are in stasis to the timeframe of our fatitude, I feel cheated that I didn't get to wear the pencil skirts and knee boots of 1998 or the super low rider jeans all the other 22 yr olds were wearing in '01. I see a darkened club, drag-queen worthy eyelashes, and skinny jeans in my future when I hit goal ... at least for one evening of make-up debauchery.

So true Jane! Like old marrieds who seem frozen in the sartorial era of their weddings or coma patients, those of us who became fat are in stasis to the timeframe of our fatitude, I feel cheated that I didn't get to wear the pencil skirts and knee boots of 1998 or the super low rider jeans all the other 22 yr olds were wearing in '01. I see a darkened club, drag-queen worthy eyelashes, and skinny jeans in my future when I hit goal ... at least for one evening of make-up debauchery.

Ha ha, nice one! I do wear skinny low slung jeans now, with big belts. You will do it too! Actually with a bit of hair dye you can get away with it.

Its the likes of the little purple leather mini skirt that caused my daughter to tell me she would never go out with me looking like that which are out of bounds! Shame cos it was a real eBay bargain. I shall have to sell it or pop it down to the charity shop.

Tell you what, lets grow old and thin disgracefully. :thumbup::thumbup:

Jane - There's life in that purple leather mini yet! Keep it - just because DD refuses to be seen with you wearing it in public doesn't mean DH won't delight in you wearing it in private! :thumbup:

Edited June 12, 201016 yr by Globetrotter

Its a UK 14 and now I am a size 12 (8 in the US) so the moment has gone sadly. I am looking forward to getting some shameful clobber for the Xmas period to torment my family with though

Susan Bordo's "Unbearable Weight" is a good nonfiction read about the subject.

Beware! " " used too many time ahead....

Great topic. I have had discussions with my overweight or thinking friends about the belief that being obese is often seen as a "Character" issue. Sort of a weakness in the individual that needs to be shaped up, or perhaps is regrettably lodged like a flaw in the "strength and originality in a person's nature". tisk tisk.... Like some lower/lesser form of life. I personally look at thin people and sometimes think of "them" as aliens. I just don't get how they are "naturally thin" without obsessive amounts of effort. Balanced eating and exercise for weight regulation may be true in the letter of the law of nature, but it is not the whole story for the obese or the thin. The idea that this is a character flaw is lazy thinking on the part of those who believe it is true...I have achieved many things in my life that involved great and sustained effort... I have not managed to loose and keep off harmful excess weight even though I have spent much of my life attempting this. I hope to enlist wls as the next tool in my arsenal. If the easy way out works I will be frigin ecstatic! I am tired of trying to cram my self into the 4% of people who have been able to loose a large amount of weight and keep it off for more than 5 years with just diet and exercise.

Can you imagine the mountains that could have been moved if all the effort exerted by people trying to loose weight could have gone into something with a greater rate of return? Cancer cured....world peace..more educated children....on and on. I digress.

Jane - There's life in that purple leather mini yet! Keep it - just because DD refuses to be seen with you wearing it in public doesn't mean DH won't delight in you wearing it in private! :confused1:

hahaha! My DH calls it "mutton dressed as lamb" and I see a place for it in my closet in the near future...I think I might have to rat up my hair at the same time...(where is the smilie icon with the batting eyelashes when you need it?)

But here's the thing.

First, as we all know, you can diet and exercise and work your booty off, and STILL not lose much -- if any -- weight. And the instant you slack off, the weight comes back... with friends. Many normal-weight people simply don't understand this; they can often eat and eat and not gain an ounce, or if they DO gain a pound or two, they just "cut back" for a couple of weeks, and they're back at their goal weight. So, they often assume everyone's body works this way, and they assume that the reason we're fat is because we're simply too "undisciplined" to "cut back a little" (or, my favorite, "put down the Twinkie" -- I don't think I've ever eaten a Twinkie!)

I'm not claiming victim status, and I'm not abdicating responsibility, but to claim that these two cases are equivalent is simply wrong. It's like telling someone in a wheelchair who's having a problem navigating a not-handicap-friendly workplace that "hey, everyone has the responsibility to go to work." Technically it's true, but the devil is, as they say, in the details. People with a genetic predisposition to obesity, people who are middle-aged or older, people who work sedentary jobs (which means that most of your day is sedentary, compared to people who work in, say, construction) -- we are all at a rather severe disadvantage in fighting the Battle of the Bulge.

And many folks like to believe that the only factor in weight loss/gain is "calories in/calories out." It's simply not that simple. Looking at my family -- every single one of whom is obese -- and looking at my friend's family -- every single one of whom is normal weight or skinny, and you just can't escape the conclusion that consumption/exercise is DRAMATICALLY oversimplifying. This other family does, on average, less physical activity than we do, and they eat about what we eat, or even worse. Clearly, genetics play as large of a roll in weight loss and obesity as "personal responsibility" do, and yet "personal responsibility" (which is just a code-word for a moral judgement; IE, you're "irresponsible" if you're fat) is still the only factor considered in society at large.

Compounding this is the fact that, of course, most obese people CAN lose significant amounts of weight -- if they essentially dedicate their lives to that pursuit. Who has that much time, and energy? Who wants to live their entire life for fitness? Fitness should be a means to an end -- an enjoyable life -- not an end in itself (in my opinion).

I think a lot of us (myself included, at times) have internalized this message that "fat people are bad" (lazy, stupid, slovenly). Just like many double standards, we enjoy it when it works for us -- when WLS leads us to drop 100 pounds, we're happy to soak in the praise and respect from those around us. But that is exactly the same thing as the disparagement of those who are still heavy, just the flip side of the coin.

Shaming doesn't make us lose weight, and praise doesn't keep us thin. Unfortunately, for most of us, even diet and exercise don't, on their own, slim us down or keep us thin for significant lengths of time.

Ultimately, as my lead-in post said, whether we couch it as "personal responsibility" or "the deadly sin of gluttony," the result is the same: shaming and judging people (including ourselves) for being overweight or obese achieves nothing of value, for society, or for ourselves. If we're willing to let go of that mentality and treat weight as a medical issue, like we treat, say, diabetes (another illness that has a "personal responsibility" component, but one which we don't routinely shame people for suffering from), we'd all be better off. Fat people would be more willing to discuss and work on their weight, and we'd all be healthier -- physically, and emotionally.

Bravo, well written. :confused1:

Beware! " " used too many time ahead....

Great topic. I have had discussions with my overweight or thinking friends about the belief that being obese is often seen as a "Character" issue. Sort of a weakness in the individual that needs to be shaped up, or perhaps is regrettably lodged like a flaw in the "strength and originality in a person's nature". tisk tisk.... Like some lower/lesser form of life. I personally look at thin people and sometimes think of "them" as aliens. I just don't get how they are "naturally thin" without obsessive amounts of effort. Balanced eating and exercise for weight regulation may be true in the letter of the law of nature, but it is not the whole story for the obese or the thin. The idea that this is a character flaw is lazy thinking on the part of those who believe it is true...I have achieved many things in my life that involved great and sustained effort... I have not managed to loose and keep off harmful excess weight even though I have spent much of my life attempting this. I hope to enlist wls as the next tool in my arsenal. If the easy way out works I will be frigin ecstatic! I am tired of trying to cram my self into the 4% of people who have been able to loose a large amount of weight and keep it off for more than 5 years with just diet and exercise.

Can you imagine the mountains that could have been moved if all the effort exerted by people trying to loose weight could have gone into something with a greater rate of return? Cancer cured....world peace..more educated children....on and on. I digress.

How I feel your pain in this post, and yes I think it is the answer.

Jane x

Thanks Jane. I am very excited about the prospects.