~Pam~

Sue, that article is not accurate. If you truly want to know what Jesus thinks about abortion, why don’t we go back to the writings of the early Christian church in the First Century (rather than writings several hundred years later)? And for that matter, why don’t we also go back and read the writings of early JEWISH writers as well? Since Jesus was indeed raised a Jew, we will start with the writings of the famous early-century historian Flavius Josephus (since anyone who has an interest in early religious theology would definitely recognize his name). For those of you who aren’t familiar with Josephus, he was a very well-known and highly respected early-century JEWISH historian. This is what he wrote about abortion,“The (Jewish) law, moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring, and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten, or to destroy it afterward; and if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child, by destroying a living creature, and diminishing humankind.” I don’t think that could be any clearer! Now for the writings of the very early-Christian church (also dating back to the First Century). In the Didache, it states “Thou shalt not slay thy child by abortion, nor kill that which is begotten". And in the Epistle of Barnabas (an Apostle of Christ), it states “Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born." As for it not being mentioned in the New Testament, well neither is RAPE! Surely you don’t believe Jesus would condone the raping of a woman just because it’s not specifically mentioned in the New Testament! Do you see what I’m getting at? So, again I say with much confidence, Jesus would NOT advocate the killing of an unborn child.

Oh my gosh, that's horrific!!!! And heart-breaking!!! And infuriating for that matter!

VERY interesting point!!!

Oh of course! I don't expect someone who compares God to the "Tooth Fairy", to value the Holy Bible. But I almost had a heart attack when I read that someone actually thought that Jesus would condone abortion! I had to set the record straight. I was just floored by the inaccuracy of that statement!

Oh my goodness, don't even try to suggest that Jesus would agree with abortion! Jesus followed the Word of God (obviously!) and the Bible calls an unborn baby a LIFE. It even says that if someone causes injury to a pregnant women and causes her unborn baby to die, that that person is to be held accountable for that unborn baby's LIFE. If he causes the death of both the mother and her unborn baby, he is to be held accountable for BOTH the life of the mother and the LIFE of the unborn baby that was killed. At no time does the Bible say that that unborn baby had to be "viable" outside her body...or that the unborn baby has to be X number of weeks old...it makes NO distinction between a fetus or a "viable" baby...or even an embryo, for that matter! It simply calls the unborn baby a LIFE.

But why should the pre-born baby be punished and killed?

Actually, you're right...I shouldn't generalize. Although I do consider abortion a selfish choice in many cases (and it's okay if we have to agree to disagree on that point), it's not always a "convenient" choice. I do realize that it's a very, very hard decision for some mothers. I understand how scared many of them had to have been to feel like they needed to make that decision. I think that's one of the problems with "abortion on demand". Often times these girls are so scared that they sometimes make "rash" decisions to abort their child, without really understanding the consequences of their decision. A dear friend of mine, long before we met each other, had an abortion when she was younger because she was scared that her family would be disappointed and angry with her. She actually believed that a fetus was just a "clump of cells" and didn't think of it as a baby. It wasn't until years later, when she saw a picture of an actual aborted baby at a similar gestational age and realized that it actually looked like a "real" baby in every way, that she fully realized what she did. It did not look like the "clump of cells" she thought it did, by any stretch of the imagination. It had little fingers, and little toes and every other little part of an "real" baby (very similar to a very premature baby). It was then that she realized that she killed an actual baby...HER baby. She sunk into a deep, deep depression and hated herself for what she had done. She was angry too at the clinic who never showed her these pictures before she had the abortion. She said they made it "easy" to have an abortion. I think all abortion clinics should have the responsibility to fully inform a mother of what she's about to do by showing her actual pictures of pre-born babies that are at a similar gestational age of the baby about to be aborted, so the mothers make a fully informed decision. She never would have had an abortion if she knew that beforehand. For that matter, she is very pro-life now. She received no "real" counselling either. I also think the abortion rate overall would be dramatically reduced with both more education and counselling, when the girls are faced with this life-changing decision. So for cases like these, obviously I have great compassion for these poor girls. The ones that were so scared and didn't know where to turn I mean. So often they regret their decision. :cry The woman I had in mind though when I made my comment about "convenience", was a women here that has already had 8 ABORTIONS! EIGHT!!! Last I heard she was pregnant AGAIN!!! So by now, the number is probably NINE! :welldone2: She refuses to go on the pill because it "messes up her body" and refuses to use condoms because it "lessens the sensation" of sex. So instead of closing her legs or Heaven forbid, using a condom...she uses abortion as her "birth control" method. :success1: Anyway, that's the frame of mind I was in when I was talking about abortion being "convenient" rather than carrying the child to term and putting it up for adoption. I was thinking more about the "Comfort Room" idea too that someone mentioned earlier and realized that it probably would be greatly needed after all, because so many women do regret their decision immediately afterwards and feel a great sense of loss. I doubt the woman with 8 (or 9 now) abortions needs a Comfort Room, but it think it would be helpful for a great deal of women. But more so, education and counselling is needed to make a fully informed decision.

Thanks everyone!!! I'm so excited!!! :grouphug:

Just over a year ago. It was supposed to be a 1 1/2 - 2 year wait but I got in on a cancellation! :grouphug:

WOOHOO!!! I'm so excited!!! I wasn't expecting my initial consultation until at least April (or May or June!) but I just got a call and there is a cancellation!!! I go to meet the Assessment Team on January 23rd!!! :banana After meeting me, they'll determine if it's best for me to go on their Weight Wise management program to lose weight with their dietitians (NNOOOO!!!!!!) or go through the Lap Band process (YYEEESSS!!!!!). If anyone is a praying person here, could you say a little prayer that I get accepted for the Lap Band procedure? I've tried so many diets on my own and just can't do it! I've waited long enough for this! I would sure appreciate it! Thank you!!!! :biggrin1:

Most definitely! Sadly, that's not always the case though. :cry

Sadly, that's often true! I know of an abortion clinic that simply threw the aborted babies into a trash can (literally!) before there was a tremendous public outcry about it! I'm assuming they must have cremated them afterwards (or however they dispose of unborn babies bodies) but still throwing them away like that is just sick. Now, after the public outcry, they treat their little bodies with more respect and follow official procedures, etc. but the whole issue was horribly disturbing! This was a while ago now, so hopefully there are standard procedures that they all have to follow now. As for "Comfort Rooms", I can see them being used for the poor parents who lost their child by miscarriage though. That would be so heart-breaking. I'm not sure if I understand the concept of Comfort Rooms though for someone who voluntarily aborted their baby, but if there is a need for them, then all clinics should have them available.

Exactly, I agree! If you voluntarily go for an abortion (with a live fetus of course), YOU killed your baby...not God, not nature...YOU. Is it a choice? Legally, yes. But it's the height of selfishness. It's an extremely selfish "choice" to kill your baby for your own "convenience". Someone said that it's sometimes easier on the mother to kill her unborn child rather than give it up for adoption. Again, that's the height of selfishness. Chances are the baby would have liked to live!

Well I'm not really sure if I'm a "fundamentalist" or not, but I'd be happy to answer your questions. I guess just to clarify, I'm a fundamentalist Christian in the sense that I believe that the Bible is the inherent Word of God and I believe that Christians are to follow Christ's teachings in the Bible as closely as possible. But I'm most certainly not a fundamentalist as in an "extremist" or "radical" Christian though, by any stretch of the imagination (which actually isn't the accurate definition of "fundamentalist"). Do I agree with the theology of other religions? No. But do I respect other people's religious beliefs? Yes. A person's religious beliefs are deeply, deeply personal to them and I would never purposely show disrespect to their most sacred beliefs. And I most definitely would never, ever show as much disrespect towards any other religion as has been shown towards Christians in this thread. I also would never pick out examples of "extremist" or "radical" behavior by members of other religious groups and imply in anyway that it represents the vast majority of people practicing that religion either. As for symbols of other faiths...am I offended if I see a Jewish menorah (those beautiful candelabras that they light during Hanukkah) displayed during the holidays (for example)? No, of course not. Our local mall used to have a banner over their doors that said "Happy Hanukkah and Merry Christmas!". That was fine with me too. And if a Muslim store clerk put a sign up that said "Have a blessed Ramadan", that would be fine too. We all have equal rights to Celebrate our own religious holidays (as we should!).

Oh wow, I had no idea so much violence occured from the pro-choice side! :xena_banana: I had no idea!! It said that 2005 was the worst year with pro-choicers killing 77 people, including 28 pregnant women (AND THEIR 28 WANTED PRE-BORN BABIES!!!) and 8 CHILDREN!!! :cry That's so horrible! I really had no clue! I have heard of pro-choicers attacking pro-lifers during peaceful protests of course, but I had no clue the numbers were that high (especially just in one year!). How horribly sad! I had no idea that some attackers RAPED the pro-life women too! :girl_hug: I really am stunned. Wow, I guess there is violence on both sides of the issue huh? :girl_hug:

Oh my...that helps me understand your position much better. Although I can never personally agree to abortion as a means of managing birth rates (which was one of the measures mentioned), perhaps future immigration rates need to be looked at and possibly reduced. We don't really have that problem up here in Canada, epecially up North and in the Prairies. Instead we don't have enough people! Maybe you should send some of your extra people up here, with big winter parkas (it's cold up here!)!

For the record, they make me angry too! Although they loudly proclaim they are Christian, they aren't following Christ's teachings. Although Christ would speak out against abortion (since the Bible refers to unborn babies as "life"), for example, he would never bomb an abortion clinic (I can't even comprehend how any "Christian" could justify that). And instead of picketing a gay person's funeral, he would instead be comforting the mourners! Anyone who would intentionally cause others pain in any way, is not following Christ's teachings. And it's hard for us non-extremists (which is the vast majority of Christians!) to sometimes be lumped in with these extremist groups (in general I mean). I never thought you were! :hug: And I'm glad you met some nice Christians tonight...there are a lot of us out there, if I do say so myself! lol :becky: Thank you for clarifying! That was really nice of you! :biggrin1:

This sounds so silly, but I'm so proud of you guys! It IS hard though, isn't it? I've been so hurt by this thread too. Some of the comments that have been directed towards Christians in general have been very unfair and uncalled for. Even when people say that they are not talking about us specifically, they must know that we'd still find those comments very hurtful. But all we can do is control our own responses and hope that they will realize that some of their comments have been very inappropriate and hurtful as well. :hug:

Oh good! Hopefully sherriberri will stop by and say hi then! The waiting lists here are at least getting better now that Dr. Birch has joined Dr. Davey. When I first started this process 3 years ago, I was told that I was looking at a 3-4 year wait (back then I was going the RNY route)!!! :omg: But now it's only supposed to be 1 1/2 - 2 year waiting list. I've been waiting a year so far...no word on a consultation date yet.

Are you going to Toronto to avoid the long waiting lists in Edmonton?

But regardless if it was or not, doesn't actually matter. It was a good point! That doesn't matter though. Yes, people who are anti-Christian WILL persecute us no matter how we behave, that is very true. But what's important here is that CHRIST will know how we behaved. He will see that we chose to have his light shine through us even in times of persecution, rather than ignoring his teachings and attacking others (talking in general here, not you specifically!!). We should never allow other people's inappropriate actions or words dictate how WE should respond to them, kwim? Anyway, just some things to think about. :hug:

You could be quite right though! Their waiting list is long! I've met several people online who had their RNY with Davey/Birch but never anyone who got a Lap Band. I'm starting to wonder if I'm their very first Lap patient or something. *looks around nervously* Anyway, nice to meet you argon! :wave:

Hi Becca! :wave: Your surgery date is sure coming up fast! Who is doing your surgery?

A part of me hesitates to answer this, but I feel that I should. To refer to someone as judgmental, intolerant, disdainful, and close-minded is every bit as inapporpriate as calling someone dumb, illogical, and hateful. When a poster here wrote "If you think you two act like Jesus would have acted, I'd be scared to meet him." Although that comment was NOT directed towards me, it hurt my heart to read that. We are to be lights of the Lord. No one should ever think badly of Christ or his teachings because of OUR actions or words. Although I applaud and respect your passion for Christ, we have to respond to criticism and persecution with the virtues that Christ teaches us...tolerance, love, respect and understanding. If someone is unkind to us, we show them kindness back. Easier said than done, of course...but we need to try. I think it shows a great deal about your true character to even ask this question! Hopefully others will follow your example! :hug:

What a great way to describe us Christians. We're not perfect...just forgiven! :amen: But as lisah25 mentioned, we do have to try to follow Christ's teachings. But it can be tough at times since we aren't perfect. But we have to genuinely keep trying. It's a journey for sure. Fortunately, to be saved we don't have to be perfect! *whew* As for the original topic, although I personally have chosen to have a small family, I have no problem at all with very large families, as long as the parents can financially and emotionally support such a large family. :biggrin1: