BJean

Cleo'sM: I love the idea of patty trying to pull up all the names you've called the opposition. Then we can all have a field day posting hers. Trust me, she'll get the award for the most inflammatory, outrageous, hateful words used in these discussions about not only political parties but even in the threads that wind up being about religion. Hey, I'll bet I can even compete in this contest, eh?

One way to explain it to you, patty, is for me to use your own post. Yes, the Democrats are involved in party politics and they wheel and deal. Republicans do too. That's how stuff eventually gets done in Washington. Negotiations, deal making, bargaining, etc. It isn't always pretty, but it has become the way to get change in Washington. But the difference is that Republicans lie to the public. They don't tell the truth when they want to go to war. They lie about the past even though we were all alive to remember what they did. In campaigns they create letters and petitions that are based on lies - and then they sign them and mail them and publish them in newspapers as an ad. They lie when the truth looks better. And to clarify because I do respect some Republicans - not all Republicans are lyin', cheatin' homewreckers, who will stop at nothing to get their way. Just some of them. You know it's like some Christians are obnoxious, hell fire and brimstone, my way or the highway folks and others try to emulate Jesus. So it's never good to generalize and I am guilty of doing just that. But the proof is in the pudding and the clowns that are running the Republican party right now are mired in pudding like mud.

And someone said the other day that there are some moderate Republicans still around. I know that it's true. And it is a crying shame that they have been ignored and cast aside by their own party.

Cleo'sM: Thanks for the link. The second video is incredible and horrifying, but not surprising in the least. The Republican party has sunk to the lowest of lows in politics. Nothing is beneath them. The reason Democrats find it such a difficult task to fight them is because the Democrats do have some moral standards. I've seen people in business behave like the Republicans are now. They lie, they cheat, they are willing to stop at nothing in order to further their personal goals. They will step on anybody to get what they want. The people who have scruples have to stand back and take it because they are not willing to lower their standards enough to fight them. But nearly everytime I've seen someone who behaves in an office like the Republicans do in politics, they wind up getting caught and they crash and burn. Sometimes it takes a long time for it to happen, but almost invariably they do crash and burn.

I disagree. I believe that you are wrong about your fundamentalist, exclusionary beliefs and I know that you're wrong about me. It certainly seems to me that you have a sad, little mind.

President Obama is a Christian. He has proven that he is a man of fine moral character and strong Christian values. For you to suggest otherwise is hateful and obnoxious.

Now why is it that you said that it was mostly Democrats that voted for the war in Iraq?

I understand why you think this way. But it has beern proven that what you want doesn't work at all. Republicans have sold that crap to the Americans public for so long that we're suffering the consequences. Read my lips, trickle down economics does not work. Having a strong middle class is what makes us a nation that can compete and grow and prosper.

Well I agree with you Cleo'sM, as you know. But on another thread I did compare the government to "big brother" because I was trying make a point to the people who think of the government as BAD, so that they might try to think of the government as a caring brother who is looking out for its siblings' safety and well being. Not to control its brothers and sisters but to make them safe, healthy, wealthy and wise. We collectively pay the government to do that and without the government we would be trying to fend for ourselves as in other countries where their people die from hunger, the infrastructure is unusable, the police are corrupt and a whole list of other problems that our government makes sure that Americans do not have to endure. It's popular to diss the government and to quote that idiot, Reagan, that all government is bad. Having a good, fair government in place is what has made this country great. And having our politicians give all the breaks to the wealthy and corporations is what has been tearing this country down - nearly to the point of collapse. That would be like your big brother knocking you down to keep you out of the cookie jar atop the refrigerator and keeping all the Cookies for himself.

El Diablo doesn't mean what he's said. He's just trying to stir up trouble and rile some people. Nobody's that stupid.

The reason there is a debate going on about Democrats vs. Republicans; conservatives vs. liberals is because there ARE distinct differences between the two party platforms. (Look it up if you don't know what a political party platform is in America.) It sounds cool to say that you don't belong to either party and that you only vote for the person. But it is factually incorrect if you vote for someone in a national political race. You get the political core values of whichever party the candidate belongs to. So like it or not, you've voted for the Democratic or Republican party. If you want to count voting for the Independents and other off-shoot parties that's fine. Just don't think you're really accomplishing much because the only thing you're really doing is lodging a little protest against the two major parties when you vote for one of them. If it makes you feel better, then perhaps it's worth it, eh? But I wonder... if you don't vote, why do you care? You have rendered yourself politically impotent and you have no say in what the government does to you or for you. So why argue about it? All one must do is tune in, read and pay attention and you can very quickly see which party's candidates appeal to you and why. And it doesn't have much to do with them personally because they are mostly held to the party standards when it comes to a congressional vote or action. Now on a local level these things aren't necessarily true. But when you speak to national politics, choosing a political party is necessary if you are going to use the only real power you have - your vote. And by the way, when you're listening to people speak and you're reading the paper and watching the news, you must use your brain power to distinguish between the good guys and not so good guys. If you fall for much of the garbage that the pundits toss out there to cloud the real issues, then you're just going to become one of the party's tools to get whatever their real goals are. And therein lies the rub. What are their REAL goals? We get all het up about the personalities of our politicians and the personalities of the talk show hosts and we jump all over the funny buzz words and competitive jargon. The more outrageous, the more fun. But what we all need to think about is what is best for our country. What we need from a national politician is for them to help run this country in a way that ensures our freedom and makes us the most powerful and well-thought of big brother on the planet. Think of your government as your big brother and maybe it will be a little easier for you to determine what you want from him. Because whether you want a big brother or not, you've got him. And if you don't like having a big brother looking out for you, perhaps you should try to get adopted by some other country that will let you fend for yourself in all things.

patty: "Liberals don't care about their countryman, they care about themselves." And what in the world would make you say something like this? I'm beginning to think you need to take a break.

patty: "congress (mostly dems) approved that war." Now patty why would you say such a thing?

Thank you Devana! Kat and you both have stated the obvious so that no one, even the most obtuse, can mistake that the Bible can be interpreted as many different ways as there have been translations and readers. That's one very good reason why we have so many denominations in the Christian faith. Furthermore, there is even more than one "bible" with many different deities hailed as the one true god. And the followers of those texts believe with all their heart that their faith in that deity is what will get them into heaven. Even the Catholic church recognizes and respects the sacraments of other church denominations although some of the fundamentalist religions are not so generous. They believe that they are the ones with the only correct interpretation of the Bible (because that's what they've done when coming up with their religion that is different from all of the others.) I appreciate very much that you all stated it so simply and obviously.

Money and power corrupt, absolutely. It's part of our capitalistic society, unfortunately. Your stories are interesting, bob. I can identify with them. They're a little hard to read because you don't use a lot of punctuation, but a lot of people think I use too many commas.

Unfortunately you pray that he will fail.

You do know folks, that there is a whole group of "born agains" who think it is their mission to convert Jews to Christianity. Talk about arrogance! patty, to say that all of the translations of the Bible have never resulted in any passage being changed, just proves that you are missing out on this life. You have wrapped yourself up in what you think is the word of God and you have closed yourself off to the real message of the Bible. You have decided what the Bible says, what it intends for us, what God expects and what he promises. But there is much more to learning to live with the Bible and spirituality. It transends your small little narrow-minded world. You're missing it and will continue to miss it until you become open and accepting of other doctrines and people outside your brand of Christianity. You say you are happy that God has brought you into his arms and has made you the Bible disciple you are today and you are happy with it. I don't doubt that your life is improved over the way you were living, but unfortunately you have not reached nirvana yet. You have a far, far way to go in order to have true understanding of the world, the universe and beyond. And trust me, you do not sound happy. You sound as if you struggle everyday. You sound like someone who is unhappy and fighting to resist the sins that you are faced with everyday. It doesn't have to be that hard. Life can be much more pleasant and enjoyable and you can make good choices much more easily if only you would throw down that cloak of superiority and become open to the bigger world instead of staying bolted to just the small little narrow tiny space on earth that you occupy.

Bob I stayed away from LBT for several months because I became so burnt out with the politics on rants & raves. But I missed it and I'm back because not only is it a lot of fun, but you really can learn stuff here. Glad to have you with us.

Conservatives don't teach a man to fish. They sit in their castles and teach their children to fish. They look the other way when they see a beggar on the street. They see someone in need and they say that poor schmuck should work like I did instead of trying to get my money. They're the epitome of selfish demagoguery. Trying to make liberals who care about their countrymen look bad is ridiculous - unless of course you are willing to make stuff up, tell lies and misrepresent the facts. The making stuff up is the most interesting and disgusting of all their dirty tricks.

TNGirl: Beaulah - gotta love it. I actually knew a woman named that when I was a wee little lassie. For some reason the woman's face reminded me of a horse. Hee, hee.

Corliss: "Thank you so much for those statements. They are so true and are a concise explanation of is wrong with America today! Christ ministered outside the gates. He acted up and was crucified due to his revolutionary teachings and behaviors. Conservative Christians just don't get it." Ironic that I was off posting on another thread on the same topic. I'm not even sure which thread it was since several of them have turned into religious rants.

patty: "BTW, I don't agree with you about getting differing responses to the same book read. The phrase," Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." means just what it says. If you delight (find joy, pleasure,etc.) in God, he will give you the desires (anything you long or hope for) of your heart." Are just TRYING to be obtuse or is this just your way of TRYING to defend your point of view. Either way, it is obvious that you don't get it. When you make your claim that the Bible was written by God and doesn't really have more than one interpretation, all of your other arguments go down the drain. Because you clearly are single-minded and think that you're the only one with any honest Biblical answers. That's often the trouble with some extremist fundamentalist religious folk... they are unable to open their minds to what is fully out there to learn. They are stuck in limbo clutching their Bible, shouting to the world that they are right, no matter any evidence to the contrary. My dad spent years disliking the Catholic Church. When Kennedy was elected, he was just sure that Kennedy was merely a tool of the Catholic Church being used to turn America into a theocracy led by the Catholic Church. When I married a Catholic man, attended the church regularly and raised my children Catholic, he finally decided that he should read, listen and become knowledgeable instead of pre-judging (due to the things he'd been taught in his church) and keeping his mind closed to additional information about the church. I wish this for you someday but will never be foolish enough to think that you will open your heart and mind to something beyond what you preach. Because, let me assure you, there is a much more beautiful life to be had than the small one that you confine yourself to. And this in no way should be read as an endorsement of the Catholic Church. I only used that as an example of how close minded people can be and how it can cut them off from learning and growing. I'm just saying...

Cleo'sM, you are spot on!! Many years ago the insurance companies weren't really much of a factor in our health care system. But they figured out a way to haul in the big bucks and the current system is a result of that. It is bad for people, the doctors haven't wound up being happy with it and the only real winners are the insurance companies and the businesses of the medical system that are profiteers. My LB doc refuses to take insurance. He is independent and talented enough to tell them to shove it and their control over his patients. He has pointed out to me on a couple of occasions that the U.S. is no longer enticing the best and brightest of our young people to medicine. They don't see anything good in the current health care system for their future. The majority of new doctors entering the system in America are not originally from the U.S. And they are not often educated in the U.S. They have been educated in their own countries or in little offshoot medical schools here and there. You can very quickly see where this system is headed, right? If the current administration and congress don't make some changes now, then Americans will eventually demand it. President Obama is a forward thinking person and he is very intelligent and he is doing all he can to make America a better place for all of us. The obstructionists want to keep things as they are. They financially benefit from the current system and/or they are scared to death of any kind of change. They fear the word "socialism" but I don't think they even understand the word. President Obama isn't trying to get America to turn into a socialist nation. He is trying to make this a fair country for the majority of the people. That is what this country was founded on - fairness and freedom. That is the opposite of what our health care system today represents. Quite the opposite.

Bob, sounds like you've made your LB decision and that you are well-informed! I wish you all the best. Our health is the most important thing and you're seeking to improve your odds and that is a very good thing. As for Joe the Plumber... that was such a giant fiasco, that most people saw through. But the disturbing part was that people at the top of the Republican party chose to embrace him and his ridiculous arguments. I learned later that he was a regular on a talk show where he was bellyaching about just about every topic that the radio personality brought forth. He is a crack pot. He lied. The Republicans adored him and made them a big part of their campaign. Need we say more?

If you don't recognize them without my help, that explains a lot.