BJean

brandy I have a hard time with it too. But afterall, we're just people with the human condition of having emotions and physical limitations that make us prone to certain behavior. None of us is perfect. The best we can to is to stay open to learning and to keep an open mind when something sounds new or different. Thank you so much for your kind words.

Well the one good thing is that Fox is so obvious with their bias, they sort of do the rest of us a favor. We don't have to work very hard at trying to figure out whether their reports are fair and unbiased. With the others, it is sometimes a little harder. I'm not talking about the political pundits, like Hannity & Holmes, Chris Matthews, Jon Stewart, etc. We ALL know who and what they are. They can be fun to watch and hear just like it is fun to read and watch here. We learn more sometimes, when we are exposed to different viewpoints from our own, doncha think?

Well I certainly do not share YHO, Jack. IMHO Fox news is more biased than all of the other networks put together. And yes, the other networks certainly do show some bias from time to time. It just doesn't ALWAYS seem to be their agenda, as it is on Fox. Again, IMHO. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. There are some things "reported" on Fox that because you agree with the things that are said and the way they say them, you do not even notice how slanted they are. And I am sure that the same is true for me on the other networks. The really sad thing is that when I was young, the news was just that... the NEWS! Nowadays, what we are fed as news is packaged sound bytes used to shock us, dismay us, enthrall us and mostly to influence us. And of course, it does. Newspapers have always editorialized, although they used to try to be somewhat fair. These days, it is common to know that each rag is 100% _____________ (fill in the political label). The fact that we are discussing it is a very good sign that Americans are on to them! Hoo-ray. It's a start. Which brings me to another topic that I noticed in an earlier post: Please don't think that Obama has made an issue of his race. He did not enter the race because he thought that Americans were ready to elect a brown person. He entered the race because he is a very intelligent man, he has better hopes for this country and he thinks he can make a difference. He is as tired as many of us are, of the way this country has been run by the Republicans. It's a dirty job, after all, this running for public office and being our country's top elected official. Who would really enjoy some of the awful stuff that comes with the territory? You have to be a darned strong person (or have some darned strong arms propping you up) to get you through the entire ordeal. I don't know what you've been reading or listening to with regard to Jimmy Carter. How in the world you can find fault with what he's doing around the world is completely beyond me. That some people can be so naive as to think that the answer to peace on earth is to bomb any country you don't agree with, is way beyond me. Just exactly when did working with your enemies to reach a peaceful coexistence become passe? This last 7.5 years has rekindled the hawk in us Americans. It was NOT 9/11 - that event did not make us puffed up and wanting to beat every other country to smithereens. We didn't feel that way after 9/11. We felt like we wanted to go get the perpetrators. We wanted to take them out and put an end to their threat. Our president and his cohorts have made invasion of other countries seem like a logical solution to many of us. They've made us think that talking with our enemies is somehow unpatriotic and stupid. Well, war is stupid. Fighting and aggression that kills people is stupid. It reminds me of another thread on spanking at LBT. People think that sometimes you have to hit your children. I say you have to outsmart them. You have to be smarter than your enemies. It gets you so much farther into a beautiful future than being the biggest bully on the earth or than bullying your kids does. As for the accusation that I am not credible because I have chosen sides, it's okay. I have defnitely chosen sides and if that makes you not read my posts I'm fine with that. I used to believe that being Democrat or Republican didn't matter, I believed that only the candidate mattered. But I have been here for a long time and I have a whole lot of experience and I have witnessed many presidents and I have voted for Republicans and Democrats. I will admit that I haven't voted Republican often because I have I been sorry that I did every time. It did take me a while to learn, but I do know the score now.

Btw Mrs.FlipFlops, I have no problem with the president using prayer and his good judgement based on his faith to help him handle the duties of the office. But that is quite different from having a powerful group from a particular faith making decisions for our nation. Again, if he had a group of Bishops and the Pope who were telling our president what to do, I think you might wonder exactly when we elected them and exactly what their motives are. I know there are those who think that the Pope is infallable, but I am not one of them. And as for Bishops, the horrendous priest/child molestation scandal speaks for itself. And as for churches contributions toward helping the needy, I have no quarrel with the good works of any church. I am proud of the voluntary contributions and hands on projects in this country to benefit the needy (not all of which are faith-based, by the way). Any group or individual who wishes to help his/her fellow Americans gets high marks in my books. But all of that can certainly be done without any political strings attached. If someone is contributing personal service or money to help others, it should not be done for the reason of gaining power - in any form.

Katw: I'm with Green, I enjoyed reading your post very, very much. I thank you too, for posting it. Scholars have been debating the existence of God for decades. It would be pretty amazing if we unearthed something no one had ever thought of before here at LBT. The best we can do is to provide some kind of understanding between the believers and non-believers, and to learn to accept each others' beliefs instead of getting defensive and accusatory. Atheists have it easy because they have a good body of science to support their thinking, but as for feelings about religion - whether it is intuition or a very real experience one has had, like MrsFlipFlops said, "You can't just throw that out the window because you don't feel it too."

Erikalyn: Where exactly did you get all that stuff about Obama? I scanned it. It is a load and I mean a LOAD of crap. So much garbage has been floated out on the 'net and it has been debunked over and over. Where have you been?? The Republicans cannot just stick with the actual political issues. Because if they stick with the issues and be honest about what they intend to do, they will lose big time. They have been playing this game for many years. They don't attack a man or woman's stand on the issues, they attack the person. And they don't even attack the person with real facts. They go as far out on a limb with outright lies as they can without everyone shouting them down. They go just far enough so that those who are looking for a reason not to vote for someone will believe what they have circulated in the press and on the 'net. They go just far enough to shock people into believing the bad news without getting serious enough about it to learn the truth. Well, I gotta admit that in several races, it has worked. I find it horribly disgusting and I do not respect anyone who jumps on that kind of personal attack and either agrees with it or believes it without learning the truth. We should not put up with those kinds of political tactics. We should do all we can to prove that dishonest personal accusations have no place in our political races. The only way we can seriously give them that message is to get out the vote and drum them out of office!

You have to be smarter than your children. You have to understand what is motivating the bad behavior. That does take time, as mentioned above. And it takes a lot of thought and creativity. There is always a reason that a child is acting out. It is not that they are just bad children to the core. They are having some kind of problem and it is motivated by something that is usually not always obvious. Swatting a child is something that you're doing for YOU. Not for the child. If you put the child first, and think about what is best for the child, hitting them is not the best answer. Especially long term. Helping them solve their problem, the one that is causing the bad behavior, is what you must take the time to do. If you think that just making them take a time out alone is the answer, it is not. The time out is not only for them to have a cooling off period, it is also for you to have some time to figure out what is really going on.

froggie that's hilarious! I hadn't ever thought of it that way since I've seen the commercial and it was for children. Well anyway, now if someone asks you, all you have to do is pop up and say "Hiya kids....." :thumbdown::biggrin::wink_smile:

Hi sweetie. I was pretty sure you had been a very sick puppy after that last round of chemo and the rest of your radiation. Thank goodness that's behind you! I think about you every day. I miss you too. Very, very much. I've been away from the office/computer and only jump on periodically for a few minutes to try to slay some dragons. HA! This whole LBT rants and raves things has become very theraputic for me. I prefer participating on these threads than obsessing about my weight these days. Hope you'll feel like coming back into the fold full time because we sure do need your input. Has anyone told you lately that you're brilliant? Well remember how often people told you that at LBT? You gotta miss that!

MrsFlipFlops: To answer your question: No, just because Bush is a born again Christian is not the reason I feel that he is shoving it in my face or down my throat. It is being shoved down my throat and is in my face because of the way he has gone about running this country, with his Christian Coalition having a presence at his side in the White House. I even went so far as to enumerate some of the things I am uncomfortable with that he's done which have made it feel like his religious beliefs are in my face. There is supposed to be separation of Church and State, but with him that has absolutely not been the case. Furthermore, I was raised in the Methodist Chruch, was a born again Southern Baptist and raised my children in the Catholic Church. I have had best friends who were B'Hai (sp) and close family who are Presbyterian and Mormon. I certainly have nothing against Christians or most other religions. But I do believe that it is extremely inappropriate for our president to make decisions based not upon the common good, but based on his own personal religious beliefs. As a Christian you can see nothing wrong with him having a Christian Coalition sitting at his side, advising him. I understand that. And I also understand that we are taught to "witness" for God and Jesus and for some of us that means going from door to door. But trust me, if we had a president who was a practicing Jew, for instance, and he assembled a group of very outspoken Jewish Rabbis who helped him make decisions, including decisions regarding our Middle East policies and our relationship with Israel, you might find it a bit uncomfortable. When John F. Kennedy ran for office, there was a large faction of Christian Americans who were actually worried about the Catholic Church working through him to dominate the world. (At one point the Pope actually said that it was the goal of the Catholic Church - to be the only religion in the world.) We really need to get smarter in this country about why the separation of church and state is so vitally important. If it takes an atheist explaining it to us so that we can understand why, then I'll vote for an atheist.

elenation: What do you like about Colin Powell?

Thanks a lot froggi! Does anyone ever ask you to plunk your magic twanger? In the 50's, there was a shoe commercial for Buster Brown shoes. Once the magic twanger was plunked, a little frog jumped up and said, "Hiya kids, Hiya, Hiya, Hiya." Hmmmm, loses something in the translation. :biggrin:

I am humbled by your response, Watcher. I hope I really do get it. God I can be stupid sometimes. And it has taken me a long time to figure out why black people are angry and why white people fear blacks so much. You know the one good thing that has come of the Dubya presidency is that everything that has been wrong in America has become even more obvious. It's pretty hard for us to continue to stick our heads in the sand and claim that we're fair, unbiased and good people when we elect someone like him. We've been all about greed. We decided a long time ago that welfare was invented for black people. We resent black people because we think they're all on the dole and that we're paying for their $500 tennis shoes. We think that black people are committing all the crime in America. We think that all a black person has to do is to work hard and they'll become Oprah or Barack. How ignorant can we be to allow discrimination against black people to continue and pretend that we had nothing to do with allowing it to continue? Everytime we say we don't understand why black people are still angry today, we are allowing it to continue.

I can't remember which poster mentioned it, but they said that no one is getting atheism or religion crammed down their throats. I disagree. No one seems to be getting atheism shoved down their throats in this country, but we are definitely getting fundamentalist christianity shoved down our throats! And in especially horrible ways. It is being shoved down our throats by our politicians in Washington. It is being shoved down our throats by our "christian" president when he takes us into a horrible, agressive war and by his decision not to help our military when they come home even after they give up security, life and limb to fight in this unholy war he waged. We are getting it shoved down our throats every day in so many ways. That is why so many people in America are feeling disenfranchised by our own government. That is why our country is so terribly divided and why this election is so vitally important to our future. Barak Obama is a good man. He is very intelligent and although I do not doubt that he enjoys the headiness of running for president, I believe that he has high ideals and ambitious goals for uniting our people and even our world. He is intelligent enough to know what needs to be done to correct the terrible wrongs that are commited so often by our congress. He knows how we have been sold down the river by greed and how we are taken advantage of by unscrupulous lobbyists. My fear, and it is a horrible gut-wrenching cold sweat fear, is that Obama will suffer the same fate that every other truly outstanding and good man has suffered in this country before him. The thing that is so terribly disappointing for me, as an American, is that the extreme right wing nut jobs get away with murder in this country and the good people just take it and shuffle along trying to pretend it didn't happen. We better stop arguing about religion and start working toward improving our country and our world. We sure can't do it if we allow people like George Bush and Dick Cheney run us into the ground.

What an intresting thread. I read all the posts and if I am not mistaken, Watcher was not the person who first brought up slavery. It seemed to be an assumption on the part of others that slavery is what is making Watcher angry and feeling that he can't trust white Americans. Well, I'm not a black man or even a black woman. I do not feel that I am qualified to say how a black person in America should feel about living in America. I have not been discriminated against for being black. I may have witnessed discrimination (and I certainly have) but I have never felt what it is like to be discriminated against just because my skin color is dark. I have been discriminated against because I am a woman (in the work force, a lot). I have been discrminated against because I am white - by 3 black girls on the streets of Richmond. Although I couldn't understand their anger at me - since I felt at the time that I was not a racial bigot - I understand now that as black girls in the south, they had felt what it was like to be treated poorly just because of their skin color. I understand why they resented someone who was acceptible just because they were white. The one thing that I liked that Jesse Jackson started was the slogan, "I'm black and I'm proud." It was a strong message for black America and if we elect Barack Obama it will be another strong message for black Americans. It will also be a very powerful message to white Americans who have lived the stereotypical white life and who have distrusted black people and who have ignorant ideas about what skin color can tell you about a person. Skin color alone can't tell you whether a person is good or bad. Americans have pre-judged people based on the color of their skin for hundreds of years and many continue to believe that skin color is important in one way or another. Until we can have more interpersonal racial relationships and until we give up our ignorant beliefs about race, we will have racial discrmination in this country. That has to stop and we all need to understand that change begins with us. That's one reason why a forum like this is a good thing. Both black and white participants can learn and change the way they think about skin color. Thank goodness for communication and education! I am an Obama supporter. I do not want to see Hillary as his running mate. But that has nothing to do with her sex. I trust Hillary about as much as I trust McCain and that is not at all. Both of them have sold out to get the presidency. Neither of them will affect a change in the policies that are harming America so much. P.S. The garbage about Obama being Muslim is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the number of outright lies that have been posted on the 'net about him. I am sure that the lies about Obama will only get worse the closer we get to the general election. And unless you want to continue with the Bush policies about the war, the environment, immigration, insurance and all the rest, you need to become knowledgeable about the real Obama and about the changes he wants to help us make. And if you want to have the possibility of a united, strong America again, you better be darned sure that you get out and vote. Remember what happened in 2000 and 2004! We need an enormous landslide so that none of their shenanigans will keep the best man for the job from being elected.

I'm very impressed with this discussion. Thanks to all of you have been willing to participate and help to enlighten us on some of the actions of the ACLU. It is very frustrating to listen to (and read) people rant and rave about how horrible it is that the ACLU "supports" an organization like NAMBLA. Then they go on to denounce every speck of work that the ACLU has ever done and make outrageous remarks about anyone who would support the ACLU. It is also amazing to realize how many people are sucked in by the right wing pundits who are leading the charge against the ACLU and other organizations because they use guilt to make people feel unchristian and unpatriotic if they do not embrace their views. I am sick to death of how the right wing has taken Americans by the throat and declared that if they don't vote for a war veteran (for instance) and a person who is a fundamentalist Christian, we are bad people and unpatriotic and should be run out of this country. We've got to stop all this extremism and intolerance and use our heads instead of letting a few wackos use our heads for their own interests.

NAMBLA, huh? Doesn't sound good, does it? Well the ACLU isn't about defending man/boy relationships. ACLU is about defending the Constitution. Sometimes when you disagree with the actions of a person or group you can be blind to the core issue that the ACLU is involved in. If we didn't have a group like the ACLU, you wouldn't like what the country would become. We need a watchdog group so that our emotional biases don't cause us to make decisions that will ultimately abridge our rights. Dig deep. Figure out the core issues of their cases. It might surprise you to learn that they do a very important job for this country.

Boo Boo Kitty: Of course horrible child abuse is not the same as a well thought out, planned swat on the backside. But a swat on the backside is also not usually what is administered as a spanking. Everyone likes to think that's all they do, but you know what they say... denial ain't just a river in Egypt. I've been very vocal about spanking being a poor way to discipine children. But I am not accusing you of abuse or even harsh spanking. In fact, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just want people to know that if they work really hard at learning alternatives to spanking, they can very successfully discipline their children without using corporal punishment. I have no desire to storm into your house and point an accusing finger at you for the way you discipline your daughter. I have no desire to pass a law that parents cannot choose their own form of discipline for their children. I do, however, wish that parents in the U.S. were better educated about alternative ways to discipline and teach their children. I do wish we had some mandatory parenting classes before we take charge of the children we bring into this world. As for you, it sounds like you've worked very hard at getting help in determining the best way to handle your daughter. I respect you for that. Parenting a child with those problems is extremely challenging, to be sure.

Whoo Hoo!!!! Finally a voice of reason!!! The ACLU is one of the most maligned and misunderstood organizations on the planet. Or at least in the U.S.A. People just don't listen, read and pay attention to what the ACLU is really all about. The ultra right wing wants us all to believe that the ACLU supports everything they do not believe in. And so they post their lies and half-truths on the internet. They complain about the ACLU ad nausem to their friends. Everyone thinks if they say something inflammatory about the ACLU it will make them more popular. Seriously. Right? You darned betcha. Ignorance is not bliss. People should get down on their knees and thank God for the ACLU. If it weren't for their tireless efforts, our constitutional rights would be abridged at every turn.

Thank God for the law that will allow abortion throughout pregnancy. However don't misunderstand, the point is that the law as it is in this country, is not written to encourage late term abortion or even early abortion. The point is that it is unconstitutional for the government to discriminate against women by intervening in their private medical decisions. Our government has no right to tell women that they must abort or that they must not abort babies. Whether or not you believe that any woman who chooses to have an abortion is a murderer, YOUR beliefs have no bearing on the rights of all women or the constitutionality of the law as it relates to this question. Banning women's right to choose is wrong and the only correct answer is for every woman to be able to make her own medical decisions, whether it has to do with pregnancies or any other medical treatment she seeks.

gadget, I am glad that you shared your stories of what caused your epiphany and helped you form your beliefs on this issue. I think you are just as entitled to your beliefs and to act on your epiphany as I am. My epiphany was far different from yours. I grew up when abortion was still illegal. I saw two members of my highschool cheerleading team deal with pregnancies very differently. I witnessed first-hand the heartache and the aftermath of their polar opposite decisions. Then later I became friends with a young female attorney who shared her very personal, heartbreaking story with me. And again when a friend of a good friend of mine had to deal with the shock, shame and terror of an unwanted pregnancy at the hands of her rapist. And again after abortion became legal and my best friend's daughter became pregnant after her college boyfriend football player forced himself on her when he had been drinking. Because she was able to get a safe, quick, legal abortion, she was able to disengage herself from that abusive relationship, get her degree and meet and marry a wonderful, loving, caring man who has fathered two beautiful children with her. This is not all about the baby in a jar in a lab. It is not all about the wind blowing a bird's egg out of a nest or the prized egg of an endangered species. It is about women and women's lot in life. It is not simple. There is absolutely more than one correct choice to be made. You have every right, and I deeply respect that right, to your beliefs and to practice those beliefs. I have every right to mine. I hope that one day you can learn how to respect my beliefs because I believe that there is room enough for both of us in this world. I believe that what is right for you AND me can be right for millions of other women. But they have to be able to make their own choices based on their own beliefs.

All this back and forth on viability is exactly why it does not matter to me one whit when someone, anyone, decides when a baby is viable. Not that viability is unimportant. It definitely is important. However, it has nothing to do with my belief that the impregnanted woman should be in charge of this singularly personal decision. I believe this for many, many reasons way too numerous to list here. It is all too complicated for this to be a decision that is made for every single woman, in every single situation, at the hands of a segment of the population that believes that only they have the right to decide. And even if it weren't complicated, it is not a decision that I believe should ever be made by one individual for another, with one exception being if the woman is incapacitated and incapable of making any decisions regarding her health. Then I believe her family, with the advice of her doctor, can and should make the decision. This is an extremely personal and extremely important question that only presents itself to women and only in certain cases of pregnancy. You cannot hold yourself up to be the one who gets to intervene in a woman's life and force her to do what you think is right for her. Only she should have the right to make the decision whether or not she is able to have a baby. Only she should be the one who decides if and when she chooses to have sex. But that is often not the case. Sometimes women do not get to be in control of their sexual activity. Sometimes they are forced to have sex and sometimes it can even be at the hands of a relative or their significant other. That is one (and only one of many) reasons why a woman should be the ultimate "decider" when it comes to this potentially life threatening, definitely life changing, and pobably life enhancing decision. Most of the anti-choice movement's activities stem from and are funded by churches and religious people. Most of the extreme anti-choice lobby is funded by extremists. The fact that gadget is not a person who is influenced by religion regarding this question does not alter the fact that churches are behind the fundamental drive to take this decision away from women and appoint themselves as the decision makers for all women. I believe they are wrong. I believe that women are quite able to decide for themselves what they are capable of when it comes to dealing with having been impregnated against their wishes. God made us this way for good reason and He trusts us to do the right thing. We do not need other fallible human beings sitting in judgment and involving themselves in women's God given right to personal choice when it comes to procreation.

Your point gadget, that one person cannot legitimately decide for another person when human life begins, is well taken. That is precisely why the information you posted has no bearing. It is also why your position, that one segment of the population should make that decision for all women is so very wrong. Argue all you want. You cannot pick and choose which studies and papers you want to believe and then impose those beliefs on others. Well I guess you can, but it is patently unfair and wrong as you pointed out in your own post above.

Oh I forgot about you BrandyII. I remember that you've chimed in a few times too. I've noticed that you and I often agree on other threads too. Really nice to get to know you great women through LBT.

Aphrodite I appreciate any positive comments you and pearlygirl aim at me. I'm more used to being the only voice that is pro-choice on this thread off and on a whole lot of the time. It makes me happy to hear from you all. You both sound very level-headed and intelligent and quite able to sort out the propaganda from the genuine arguments on this thread.