BJean

Btw, I don't have a problem with Palin believing in creationism and God. I just disagree that hers, or any religion should be taught in our public schools. Can you tell me how teaching Christianity in our public schools is different from Muslims teaching their religion in their schools? Oh yes, I know that the Muslim religion is different from Christianity, but endoctrinating young children with a belief system that is chosen by our government is not what I believe most Americans want or expect their elected leaders to accomplish while in office. That is not the only extremely right wing, narrow-minded objective that Palin has in her arsenal of political goals and there are quite a few more that I disagree with. In fact, I am against everything she stands for. If I ever could have voted for John McCain (as I thought I might have in the past), having Sarah Palin in line for the presidency is a deal breaker in every way.

I missed the Couric interveiw. I was at sea and only have been able to catch a little Fox and MSNBC for the past 2.5 weeks. They gave Hillary Clinton hell for being so strident. I think Palin deserves to be called on the fact that she's so shrill. I don't agree that she's a nice lady. I think that she is a very effective politician for the constituency she represents. And she scares the hell out of me. But her shrill tone represents her politics quite well as far as I'm concerned. As did Hillary's strident tone. I remember that McCain has a long history of being called on his strident attitude and his quick temper. And being called on it publically hasn't accomplished anything but cause him to soften his tone and hide his temper. He still chose Sarah Palin and that's what counts, isn't it? Hey I apologize if I'm off on some tangent. I should be home taking a nap. But who can sleep with this crazy political race going on? I just don't understand why the extreme right wing feels that it is necessary for our government to represent only them. It reminds me of the Muslim mindset in some ways. Like I said, I'm scared.

Anybody who believes that Senator Obama is running "just to fulfill some historical token just to have a 'first'", please stand up. TB, is that also why you think McCain chose Sara Palin - just to fulfil some historical token, just to have a "first"? Is McCain going to step up to the plate and face the public, oppostite Senator Obama tomorrow night, or will he continue to talk out of both sides of his mouth like he's been doing? Honestly, I don't know what the people running his campaign are thinking. I am definitely beginning to feel embarassed for the guy. I've felt sorry for him for quite a while, but now it's downright embarrassing. Has anyone besides me noticed that the people who are most critical of his age, are older people? I wonder why that is? Actually I don't wonder. I know why that is. We know, first hand, how much people change and the abilities that are compromised when one gets past about age 60 or so. Maybe this explains what is going on with that campaign.

I don't know where you got the story about Palin asking the librarian how to ban a book because someone's child brought home a objectional reading material, but I believe it was a story put out by the Republican party to try to make Palin's views seem more acceptable and mainstream. I saw the Librarian interviewed in person and watched her tell the real story about what happened. Don't be taken in by the political spin-masters. Palin doesn't believe in evolution, believes that creationism should be taught in schools, believes that the chant "drill, drill, drill" is a perfect one for America. She's about as far right wing as she can get. I will do everything in my power to keep her from becoming the Vice President of the United States of America... land of the free, home of the brave.

Missygordon: You're absolutely right! His V.P. pick certainly has revitalized his campaign! And you're also right, IMHO, that all of these hot topics are open for debate. It is very refreshing to discuss things with a McCain backer and NOT have them disparage Obama. Good for you. I used to be much more magnanimous toward McCain, but after having felt the sting of how his campaign has been run, I believe that Senator Obama backers have to step up to the plate and respond to the accusations and misstatements. It is also encumbent upon us to point out the times when the Republicans have been talking out of both sides of their mouths. And lately, that has been all too often. I agree that the debates should reveal a lot and clarify a lot and that is as it should be. Yes Jack, I used to be a McCain supporter.

Well Jack I have been very happy with Senator Obama's performance in the Senate. His voting record reflects very intelligent and forward thinking rationale. As for McCain's voting record and the things he has ascribes to now that he is dancing to the tune of the right wing Republicans instead of behaving like the maverick he says he is, go competely against my beliefs. So voting for McCain is not an option. As for the 3 Surpreme Court Justices that Bush appointed, you Stevegoad, must agree with their decisions and opinions because for the most part I do not and I believe that those 3 appointments will have huge ramafications for our future. Some of the comments that have come out of that court in the past couple of years are downright assinine. And MissyGordon, don't get me started. The most recent and obvious sell outs are his V.P. pick (and that one is pretty huge), his recanting how he believes government should behave regarding Roe v. Wade, his embracing most of the policies of the Bush administration, etc. Either he was fooling us before or he's fooling us now. Either way, I'm done with him. As far as I'm concerned, I agree with whoever said that he would have been better off to step aside instead of running for president this go 'round. There's no question that people would have loved to build a monument to his military service and government service. Perhaps now, not so much.

Jack most Republicans would have us believe that Democrats want a welfare, socialist system. That is just not true. The fact that Congressional members have incentives to set up programs that we call "pork barrel spending" and the lobbyists have sufficiently incentivized our Congress to pass laws that will benefit them, doesn't mean that the taxes we pay aren't needed or often used for the good of all of us. The fact that we have bad government programs doesn't mean that we shouldn't have ANY government programs. The fact that we have corrupt government officials doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to run our country in such a way that is good for the masses instead of the few. I don't believe that things are being done properly across the board and that's a big reason why we need decent leadership. We need people who know the difference between good government programs and bad ones and have the fortitude to do something about it. Contrary to the Reagan quote about all government being bad, the government actually does do a whole lot of good for this country. We can't do without it. But we can improve it. It is interesting that so many people complain about having to pay taxes, but they all want a safe infrastructure, good schools, parks for their children, clean air and water and no bums on the streets begging for a handout everytime they leave a building. They want this country to stay on the cutting edge of technology, have a massive military that is second to none, be able to depend on our mail system, and on and on. How do they expect these things to be paid for, donation? The reason you don't get what I'm about is perhaps because you don't understand someone with a social conscience. I love this country. I want this country to improve and to be the most powerful nation in the world. I want our country to take care of its own, not have people who don't know how to read or write. I want people to be able to have all the advantages that modern medicine offers, right here in their own country. We shouldn't have to go to countries like Mexico and Canada to get affordable medicine and medical care. I don't want socialized medicine anymore than you do, but the Democrats didn't single handedly get us into this mess. Insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and insane lawyers have certainly contributed to that. And as for Jimmy Carter, I thought Republicans all thought he was a singularly worthless president who was unable to get anything done. At least that's what I've heard most often about President Carter. You and I will obviously never agree on what is good for this country. But isn't it great that we can discuss our differences and vote for people who are as far apart politically as McCain and Senator Obama. God Bless America. (America, the land of the free and home of the brave and the country that our taxes built.)

I think many of us can claim to be independent when it comes to comparing the two major parties. We all want to believe that we can think for ourselves. None of us wants to believe that we are taken in by the politicians and political pundits. But right now, after the events and politics of the past 8 years, I don't believe that we can not take sides. This is a crucial time in America's history - at least in my lifetime. The conservatives have gone much further in their suggestions of what they think is good for America than ever before. They want to impose their religious beliefs on every American, no matter what. I believe that our only hope out of this mess and our only hope against hope that it won't continue as it is or even get worse, is to vote for Senator Obama. Because I believe that Senator Obama is one of the most imtelligent people to ever have run for president (in my lifetime) and I think that he has as his goal an intent to treat all Americans fairly. Fairness has been lacking in our government over the past 8 years and that is unforgivable in a country that claims to offer freedom and democracy for its' citizens. What we need is a president who actually cares about all of the people in this country, not just the ones who have money and power. And John McCain does not offer that to us. He has obviously sold out to the powerful, biased people running the Republican party. It isn't that we just need any old Democrat to get things working well again. We need a man like Senator Obama. I hope that you will consider voting for him, after you learn what he really intends to do, not what the Republicans claim that he intends to do. Let's put someone in the White House who is intelligent and who will represent all of us, not just some of us.

The Republican theory of trickle down economics just absolutely does not work. Look at our economy right now and tell me that giving tax breaks to large corporations works for all Americans. It does not work. It works to make the greedy corporate big wigs wealthier. We have seen this over and over when Republicans are in control and allow the lobbyists to run the place. What I'm talking about... what Senator Obama is talking about... is FAIRNESS. We're not talking about unfairly taxing corporations! That's Republican mumbo jumbo. We're talking about the rich paying their fair share instead of middle class playing more than their fair share. Sure the Democrats usually wind up raising taxes. But it is not because they are socialists - as you suckers would have people believe. It is because by the time they get back in office, they have to get the country back on track after having a ruinous Republican president. check out your history books. I don't have to - I've lived through it time and again. As for President Bush's father, the first President Bush, remember what he said, "no new taxes"? And he had to eat his words publically - he did raise taxes - because he had no choice. At least the first President Bush had a conscience, and his conscience is called Barbara. When was the last time any business that you frequent has cut their prices because their costs went down??? Get serious. I can't believe that you think that by paying their fair share of taxes, it will be bad for you and me. Please, stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. They will lie to you and tell you that their "truth" was given to them in a vision by the Lord Himself. I have little tolerance for people who are bald-faced liars like Rush Limbaugh. And Jack, I do not get my information from the DNC. I get my information from real life experiences and knowledge. I don't depend on any politician to tell me what to believe about the economy. I am impressed that you are wealthy enough to be comfortable with the Republican way of life. Truthfully, I am too. But I have a conscience and I know what is fair.

Obama came out and said that their kids are off limits. I agree. However, I will talk about the fact that Palin is totally against sex education in school; against the distribution of condoms. If she's an example of how well abstinence works, we better all be convinced that teaching abstinence is what doesn't work. So she's wrong on that. Could it be more obvious how wrong she is? She wanted to know how to get rid of "objectional" books in the public library of the town where she was elected mayor. The townspeople were outraged. So she went about learning how to win the voters back. She learned that they were upset about their property taxes. So she lowered their property taxes... which sounds good, right? Well, she lowered the property taxes but raised the sales tax. They're effectively paying just as much in taxes as before and it hits them every single day when they buy anything in that little town. And to add insult to injury, she also lowered the taxes on corporations. She has a hockey playing son, right? this hockey mom... Well, she decided that the people would love a hockey rink in town. So she went about doing just that, building a hockey rink. She promised the people that it would be working in the black in a few years. Well, it's still operating in the red with no end in sight. She's against a woman's right to choose. She thinks that the government should always, in every single case, intervene when a woman discovers that she has become pregnant against her wishes. She insists that every single woman must have every single child that they is impregnated with, every single time, no matter what. Let me ask you, if you found that you, or your spouse if you're a guy, was pregnant and bearing a seriously malformed baby, one that had no chance at surviving, or if it did survive, that it would be seriously handicapped and a serious burden on you, your finances, the rest of your family and that you would not be given a choice whether or not to have that child, but that you ABSOLUTELY MUST BY LAW, bring that child into this world, do you think that it is right for the government to have that kind of control over your life? And am I the only person who understands that bringing a child like that into the world is selfish beyond belief; to bring a child... a seriously malformed child with no chance of having anything close to a normal existence... into the world to suffer, just because you want it or you think that the government has the right to compel that that child be brought into the world? She's all for drilling in Alaska. The reason? For your gas bill - oh no, not on your life, it's not about your gas bill. It's about the money it will bring to her and the citizens of Alaska. It won't lower your gas bill - at least not for a very, very long time from now. It will, however provide more profit for the oil companies and for the what, 600,000+ ?, people in Alaska. And the pristine environment of Alaska be damned. It's none of our business what they do with Alaska. The citizens of Alaska should be the only ones who get to decide what happens in that state. Yeah, right. If they want to buy it back, they should make an offer. but they shouldn't expect to pay what Seward paid, okay? She's a prize pick for the Republicans. Not the everyday working class variety of republicans, but the elite, wealthy, powerful Republicans. The ones who are going to benefit from another 4 years of corporate greed. Yeah, it sure makes sense all right. You go John McCain.

I've just read the last few posts and I'm shocked! I thought everyone had learned the truth about Obama by now. It's been all over the news and in every paper you can pick up. All the lies that have been published about him being a muslim and having "questionable" ties, etc., were lies put out by the Karl Roves of this country. Read more, learn more, don't accept the Republican right wing propaganda - some of which is referenced above. If you believe the lies it tells me that you aren't wanting to know the truth - you're wanting to believe the guilt propaganda that the Repblicans use to make you do their will. Well, why wouldn't it work on you, it works in the core of our country, our churches. Doesn't the fact that they lied, used bald faced lies published in full page ads in important newspapers about John Kerry, convince you of what the extremists in the Republican party are capable of? John Kerry actually did serve his country and actually did receive medals that he fully deserved for his heroic deeds during the Vietnam war. How you can condone those people doing what they did to a true American hero is beyond me, and that behavior should be considered grounds for imprisonment as far as I'm concerned. Instead you people jump on their bandwagon and lap up their dishonesty and call it being patriotic. You embrace the Republican party when they pull the ridiculous tactic of appointing an extremist right wing person to the Vice Presidency. If Amerians don't stand up against this kind of evil political manuvering, I will be not only surprised, I will be devastated. The Republicans have done all they can to capitalize on the fact that Americans were raised on guilt. They use that very tactic against you. They cause you to want to join in their efforts because they've convinced you that abortion is evil and that if you don't agree, surely God will strike you down in this life or the next. In order to get their people elected, they've used this single issue to infiltrate our Churches and have even our priests and ministers to try to convince you they are good and right and that you should vote for them. Why can't you see that they are greedy, greedy, people who want to control things so that they can continue to make the enormous sums of money that they've made throughout the past 8 years. They are panicked not because they fear Obama or how he was raised, or even that he doesn't think that the government should involve itself in the abortion issue. They are panicked because if Obama is elected, he will do all he can to stop the huge subsidies to mega-wealthy oil companies and other corporations that they benefit from. He will do all he can to ensure that they pay their fair share of taxes instead of having that tax burden fall on you. YOU! (Unless you make more than $250,000 a year - and then you'd still only be expected to pay your fair share instead of getting the tax breaks the wealthy citizens have enjoyed under Bush) They use guilt. They question our patriotism. They use fear. And you people think it is about those emotional issues. It isn't. It is about greed. Do you know that Exxon Oil has made more profits in this past year than any company in the history of the world? And you're paying more at the pump. And your Republican President backs the oil companies' plans for more and more drilling with a token effort at researching alternative plans for oil independence. As for McCain being a maverick. Yeah, choosing Palin looked a little off from the norm, but you know as well as I that she was chosen for him. And the maverick McCain that once was, is no more. He's sold out and sold out big. If you want change (and I perhaps many of you do not), then you shouldn't vote for McCain. He was a big part of the reason things have been done the way they have been done in Congress for many years. To think that at age 72 the man is going to bring about big changes is just unrealistic. But if you don't do anything else, learn the truth about Obama. Stop believing the scare mongers and the dishonest people who only seek to fool you. They do not have your best interests at heart.

Jack mentioned the Constitution. If we believe in the Constitution and what it represents to us as citizens in our "free" country, you better think twice about voting Republican in this presidential election. In fact, you better think long and hard about it. This administration has abridged our Contitutional rights in so many ways they are too numerous to list. And John McCain who wants us to think of him as a "maverick" could have only been considered a maverick prior to his running for president this time. Now he has fully embraced all of the things that the Republicans have pushed for and put into effect and want to put into effect that are what I consider to be extreme right wing. There's no middle road here to consider. He's had to agree to all the terms and conditions of the right wingers in the party or he wouldn't have been able to get the support and money of those people in the party - and they are the ones who are in control and have been for years. His running mate was hand-picked for that job and she is far more right wing than McCain used to claim to be. Now they join arm-in-arm to work toward drilling for oil in Alaska and off-shore everywhere they can, abolish Roe V. Wade (women's right to choose), strengthen people's rights when it comes to owning all kinds of guns (she's a strong supporter of the NRA), and the list goes on and on. The thing you must ask yourselves even if you do think that McCain is your man (because he is a maverick?), what if John McCain dies? Do you want this woman to be in charge of the White House, our Armed Forces, the EPA, Education, and all of the other branches of the government that answer to the President? The Republicans want you to think that because she was governor, she is uniquely qualified to run for president and furthermore, that she is MORE qualified than Senator Obama. If you buy that, then you are probably just as right wing as those who chose her. What all this tells us is that we have very clear choices this year. There's no middle ground to be had. Vote Liberatarian if you choose, but know that your vote has no chance of changing anything. If you want change, your only hope is Senator Obama. The man is extremely intelligent and I believe that he has the backing of enough people who want the same kind of change, that he can and will get us out of this horrible mess that we are in as a country. As for Obama being backed by the lobbyists, you can think again. He has had some backing by some moneyed people, but the millions of dollars he has raised in this campaign have been donated by millions of regular people, one dollar or five dollars at a time. It is unprecdented at this time in our nation's history for a person to be able to get the kind of support that this man has. Most of us have only known of presidential and other political races to be run by huge donations by special interest groups. As for the jerk, above, who is insinuating that someone will be brazen enough and dishonest enough and evil enough to do away with Senator Obama, he better hope that it never comes to that. If someone does that, Americans will not put up with it this time. They've made it work in the past, when there were good intelligent people who also wanted change in this country, by shooting them but I honestly do not think we will put up with it anymore. A public stoning comes to mind. And all ya'll who complain about the idea that President Obama will raise your taxes, you have to admit that if McCain gets elected, taxes will also be raised. There's no choice at this point. The Republicans have spent and over-spent and depleted the surplus that Clinton left. There's no choice about paying for this war where we've spent a billion dollars every week. And that's not the only place where the Republicans have over-spent and over-committed us - they keep giving tax cuts and incentives to huge corporations, like the oil companies, and that has to be repaid as well. If you're buying into the age old notion that the Democrats (Obama) plan to expand welfare programs, you aren't listening. Senator Obama wants to incentivize Americans to WORK not collect welfare. Stop listening to what the Republicans say and do your research. I think you'll be surprised at how fair he wants to make things in this country. At least you'll be surprised if you are aware of how unfair things are in this country right now. I won't apologize for the lengthy post this time. You all opened the door to all this stuff, it's your fault.... Har-de-har-har-har. :smile:

Hey plain, that was a great explanation of your thoughts on the matter. I respect your opinion. I know that the Republicans have always run on the platform of less government. Unfortunately under the current administration, the government has become much, much bigger and more intrusive into our lives. Sure I understand the reasoning - it's been due to the terrorist threat, but I absolutely hate it because I know that it goes totally against what the country was founded on and what I personally believe in - and it's against the law. One of my chief gripes about this administration has been that they say they are all for one thing, but that is not the course of action that they take. And everyone seems to be oblivious to it. I don't think that the media finds much mileage in reporting on that and besides it can be pretty complicated and detailed. I do think that the Karl Roves of this political group have ruined it for people like you who like what the Republians stand for (or stood for) but they have bastardized it all and have gyped good Republicans out of what they think they're voting for. All this is IMHO, of course. My DH sees it differently for the most part, although there's no disagreement about how the government has been made more expansive under this administration. I agree with you though that keeping as much as possible at the state level, we have a better chance of getting what we want. I don't want to pay for anybody's sex change operation, no matter what state they live in. I don't think anybody wants to pay for my cosmetic surgery either. And btw, trickle down economics is voodoo as far as I'm concerned. Have you counted the number of billionaires that we have in this country now? Do you know why our economy has produced so many new billionaires in the past few years? Does it make any sense in light of what has happened to the regular working folks economic status? So far, it ain't trickling down, it's shooting up. Ok now I have to apologize for the long-winded post. Well by now you know when I sit down at the computer, I just type out whatever I'm thinking and it's encumbent upon you all to just look away!!! :biggrin: P.S. TheWatcher: I enjoyed that line of Senator Obama's tonight too. But my favorite had to be from the regular guy, Barney Smith who said he wants a goverment that cares more about Barney Smith instead of Smith Barney. Har.

Well I'll be doggone plain. That's the smartest thing I've seen you write. His speech was awesome, I don't care what your party affiliation or even your country. That man can deliver a speech like nobody's business. I hope he gets the chance to prove that he can deliver on his promises as well. I know Jack... you think that he has a snowball's chance of doing any of those things for us, but geez, we gotta try for it! We can't keep on this way. Unless you're a wealthy person, how can you vote for the Republican candidates this time? I feel like the bad guys have highjacked the Republican party and it has become some kind of monster that has run away from all of the values the party once stood for. Oh they say that they still believe in those things, but they do not operate that way. My trust for any of the Bush supporters (and McCain is one) has long gone by the wayside. Thank goodness someone inspirational and uplifting is offering something that we can be feel united with. How refreshing after 8 long years! :biggrin:

The videos you watch that are horribly gruesome and violent are as far as I'm concerned an exaggeration of the truth. An abortion (early in the pregnancy) is a simple procedure. We all have our own beliefs on this of course but I have been present at a live abortion and I was shocked at how very simple it was and how quickly my friend was able to recover. This was a girl who, if she had been unable to obtain an abortion, she would have either killed herself or tried to terminate her pregnancy herself. Now Carrie, that would have been a grisly scene and one where not only the fertilized egg died, my friend might have died as well. There are lots of violent, grisly scenarios that we can put forth. None of us really wants to think about the women here - except maybe Butch and me and a few others. The focus of this discussion has been on the aborted fetus because it is what can be used to turn this discussion into a gut wrenching, heart string pulling, sad, sad, sad thing. For a woman who cannot live through taking an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy to term, abortion is far from a sad thing. It is a procedure that is simple, safe, and life SAVING!

Once again gadget, I will reiterate as many times as I need to, Senator Obama does not want to withhold medical care from babies who are born alive. You are putting your own (or whoever convinced you of it) spin on Senator Obama's vote. His vote was not about killing babies. His vote was based on whether an additional medical professional should be mandated to be present when a baby is born alive after an abortion. There is a distinction that is obviously lost on you and that distinction has to do with the issue that it is inappropriate for the government to mandate additional medical personnel to be present in those cases. You are using his beliefs against him and you are twisting his beliefs to mean something that they do not mean to further your cause. And you're also doing it to harm his standing as a candidate for president. I agree with you when you say that people do change their minds, however I have a strong feeling that when people read this debate here, they won't necessarily be agreeing with you and your methods. One can only hope.

Human development does begin at fertilization. No doubt about it. That is a scientific fact. But it is still being debated whether a fertilized egg has all the rights of a fully developed human being. You talk about a zygote's right to life. I talk about a woman's right to life. Senator Obama is intelligent enough to know that what he says is not going to be accepted as evidence of anything with regard to when life begins. He does not presume to be God. Whereas many of you do make that presumption for yourselves.

That's an easy question to answer: the exaggerations and untruths come when it is said in several sneaky ways that Senator Obama does not want to extend life saving medical care to viable babies. There have been characterizations placed on his motives that just do not jibe with his heart and beliefs although you can make those claims and people can believe them since you go about posturing and posting the way you have here to make it look like everything you've previously said is undoubtedly true. You people are quite good at what you do. I have no doubt that if you win this battle, you will choose to believe that the ends justifed the means. Just as those authors of the Swift Boat campaign did.

Conotrary to your claims, your last paragraph isn't 100% factual. I don't doubt that Democrats try to muddy the waters too, but the facts are not what the Republicans (right winger Republicans - not all mainstream Republicans) have said. Yes, there are some facts that are thrown in to give their claims validity - and unfortunately many Americans believe the entire content of their claims - just because there is even one single element of truth involved. But it is the right wingers who have done such a magnificent job of muddying the waters on this issue. And the thing that I can't get past is that they claim that everything they're saying is true. In fact that is not factual. Stick a fork in me - I'm done with this dead horse. If people are so ignorant that they want to believe Senator Obama has death and killing as his motive, then nothing I can say will change their minds. If they choose to listen to you here at LBT and believe that everything you put forth is factual, then they will learn the truth after the election. Just like I hope they did after the last election.

You're still wrong. I do not believe that a baby must be outside a mother's womb in order to deserve the basic human right to life. Period. No qualifiers. You have messed with the facts so much you believe that you know what I have said and what I believe but what you've come up with is just simply wrong. Doctors are well trained in life saving measures. All doctors. If they are not, there's no way that they as human beings attending to the medical needs of a woman, should they or can they be certified as doctors. So if there is a qualified doctor present, why would additional doctor(s) be required? You want to make it sound like any doctor who would find it necessary to medically abort a baby to preserve the life of the mother, would desire to kill a viable baby. I know all you've stated about doctors and medical personnel tossing babies into a closet, but I do not believe that is the norm and I do not believe that it is fair to characterize it in that way. It is the way you would like for people to believe is the norm because it adds fuel the fire against Senator Obama and his views. And it furthers your cause against a woman's right to make decisions about her own medical treatment and that of her child. You want to inteject yourself into any scenario that could possibly involve an unborn child and I (and I believe Senator Obama) do not believe in your right to you to do that. And no, you are wrong, Senator Obama did not fight against any baby's right to medical care. He fought against the government's forced intervention in those types of medical situations. You don't understand it. I get that. But you are the very one here at LBT who is using this to convince people that you and the Republican media spinners are right about Senator Obama. The fact is that you are wrong and you justify your depiction of what he believes because you want abortion to be illegal. Period. People deserve the truth. People are smart enough to make their own decisions. It is patently unfair for people who oppose things to make claims about their opponent's beliefs in order to further their agenda. That's what the Republicans are all about. They don't run on the true issues that are facing Americans. They run on fear tactics, lies and innuendo. Just lobby for abortion to be made illegal and play fair. I believe that the reason that you don't play fair is because you know you can't win if you don't make anyone who has the opposing viewpoint, out to be a baby killer. I am not a baby killer. I don't believe that Senator Obama has any desire to kill babies either.

First let me clarify something that you have stated, here in writing, that is my belief but which in fact is completely incorrect and not a belief that I hold true. I do not, nor have I ever said, that a baby is not a baby until it is outside a mother's womb. You are completely and totally inaccurate about that statement and I resent it very much. Don't make me have to spend the time explaining the difference between what I have actually said here and what you have stated that I believe. You can rest assured that you are utterly and completely wrong about this. Your declarations about what I believe are similar to the way the right wing has chosen to characterize and put emphasis on what Senator Obama stated about the reasoning behind his vote. You, and others, have put your own interpretation on what you think he believes because you do not like his vote and you want to make him look like a baby killer. He has explained that he believes that a woman's medical care, provided by a doctor she whom trusts and has put her life in his hands, should not be legally required to have intervention by an outside doctor if there is a baby born that is viable. He went on to say that it is a given that if a baby is born that is alive, every normal course of action should be utilized to save the life of the baby. I know that you do not understand. I do not expect you to. Your beliefs are clouded by all the horrors that you envision surrounding a woman's right to choose her own medical care. I wouldn't want to know the number of times you have viewed bloody, horrible videos of botched abortions. I know that you feel that saving babies is your job and I believe that you will do it however you can. I understand your passion but I cannot justify the way you and others go about trying to get your beliefs legislated with regard to this issue.

I'm headed off to bed so you can feel free to put my statements in quotes and add your rebuttals beneath them to your heart's content. I won't be playing the game anymore tonight. Ciao.

And by the way, your statement that Senator Obama voted to actively kill babies or leave them to die is one of the stretches of your propaganda makers that is what I was talking about. Senator Obama does not believe that a woman's rights and the judgement of her doctor should be second guessed by an outsider, a government entity or anyone else. That's what I agree with and that is something you'll never understand.

I understand and agree with what Senator Obama said about the reasons behind his vote and I disagree with the narrow-minded, intellectually inferior people who felt railroaded into voting the way you think is right. Do we have to go through this exercise again? You know you're right, I know that I am right and we can talk until the cows come home, we're blue in the face and every other silly scenario and neither of us will understand each other or agree with each other. If the rest of the world fell off the flat edge and it was just you and me left, I'd fight you as hard and firmly as I could on this very issue without budging one iota. I do not agree with you and your characterization of a abortion being the termination of a person's human rights. I know you think that you are fully 100% correct and I know that you do not believe that anyone can dispute or disagree with that characterization, but you are wrong. And the louder and more grisly you become only makes me dig my heels in deeper. It's simple... you are wrong and I am right. You can insult me and try to make me out to be something that is nothing short of one who condones taking the life of a person. So be it. That's your perrogative. I came here of my own free will. I know what you're about and that's exactly why I'm here. But I will stop short of making personal accusations about you and your motives. I won't threaten you in any way except to tell you that you are wholly, 100% wrong on this issue. You are brainwashed and you are comfortable with that brainwashing and you make it your job to brainwash others. Believe me, there will always be plenty of people like me around to call you on it. For everyone else out there, I hope you will all get out the vote for our next President of the United States, Barack Obama - because if you don't, you will learn just how horrible it can be when the right wing fanatics take away every woman's right to make their own medical decisions.

Well I have all those symptoms too and I gotta axe ya, do yer hands puff up like water balloons too??? Thanks Nancy. Yes, cheese binds and after my surgery that's what the doctor ordered (seriously). Fortunately it worked. Then he recommended lots and lots of water. All this reminds me of the time I went to a space shuttle launch in Cocoa Beach and we were at the VIP viewing area which was outside and I had to go pee and they had portapotties so I went in one and locked the door and put the paper on the seat, pulled down my gear and peed for all I wuz worth and midstream what happened you say? well a tree frog (of which I had never encountered before) jumped on my upper thigh and I was screaming and hollering and trying not to pee myself and trying to get the little bugger off me, which wasn't happening so when I finally finished I dried myself and stood up, still screaming and hollering, and had to pull he damned thing off and my daughter and friends were all crowded around the portapotty yelling "are you all right???!!!" and I came out, thoroughly disheveled and horribly red and embarrassed and told them what happened. My first encounter with a tree frog in Florida. I think I burned some calories during the process.