BJean

I think that one reason that the election process hasn't been changed in the past 8 years is because none of us wanted to believe that something like that could happen to us in America. We all want to believe that our elections are honest and representative of what the majority of Americans believe in and want for this country. By the same token, we all want to believe that we can trust our bankers and our brokers too. We've been terribly naive and woefully ignorant of how greed corrupts, both in politics and the financial institutions in America. I have been amazed at how quickly Britain and some other European countries have acted to fix their financial woes. We Americans often are paralyzed and too slow to realize the truth of what's happening. And they have been dealing with terrorists up close and personal for many, many years. They have had to learn how to react quickly in crises. I must say though, I wonder if I am the only one who was competely amazed at how quickly our government shut down the airports on 9/11. It was out of character for us as a nation. For instance, think about the firemen and others who didn't get out of the buildings before they collapsed. And think about all the people who stood outside the buildings in shock, only to be sucked into the fray. But as usual, I digress. I believe that the primary reason that Senator Barack Obama is needed in this country is that he is extremely smart and he is quick to identify problems and go about solving them. I cannot say that of John McCain.

Hey Jack, I really appreciate your post on this one and I respect you a lot for it.

So the woman is raped and YOU get to decide for her that she must relive that experience for 9 months and then keep looking the product of that rape hard in the face, feeding it, nurturing it and loving it for the rest of her life? Or do you insist that she give it up for adoption because YOU think that is the best thing for everyone involved? You all have every right to behave in that manner if you get raped. You have no right to determine what is right in each and every case of rape for each and every woman everywhere. You will never convince me that rape is God's plan for impregnating a woman and producing a child. God gave people free will. YOU do not have the right to play God. For someone to say that there are NO EXCEPTIONS EVER and that every woman, by law, must bring to term each and every fertilized sperm that occurs, is wrong, wrong, wrong. I believe it is your right to make that decision for yourself, but not for every other woman in America. This is something that we cannot take a giant step backward on. If you don't understand the reason for women's right to choose, I am sorry for you. But making abortion illegal does not work. Spend your time and energy helping women who find themselves impregnated without their consent. Work for them and the unborn children. Help those children when they are born. But leave the physical medical decision of whether to have a child up to the individual. It is their right, not yours.

MissFFs: I challenge you to go back through all the posts here and at the other one pertaining to this subject and see just how many assinine links have been posted by Republicans and how many have been posted by Democrats. My only reason for posting any links (which I try to rarely do) was in response to someone accusing me of saying that the Republicans put out lies and innuendo as their campaign plan of action. I believe that's the way they win elections - that and voter booth fraud. I believe this because I have witnessed it myself, starting with Richard Nixon's bad guys. (One of whom is a big McCain supporter and who McCain saw fit to rub elbows with and take his money.) The Democrats are up against it. They are not willing to commmit crimes like the Republicans just to get elected. And if you will notice one thing I'd appreciate it: as a rule, Obama speaks to McCain's proposed plans for the country, he does not lie or insult personally, or attack McCain on a personal moral basis. Although as you probably saw, there have been some reasons that he could have done just that. If anyone sticks to the issues, it is Senator Obama. I'm not saying that each and every ad that the Democrats run are pure as the driven snow, but by comparison to the Republican rabid dog ads, the Democratic ones are baby kittens. Have you ever watched the documentary, "Murder, Spies and Voter Lies"? Most of us know what happened in the past two presidential elections - and I believe it probably was also true in the case of the Tom Bradley defeat in California. You see, I just don't believe in the "Bradley Theory" that the media is touting right now. But I do believe in illegal elections because I have been witness to it. Let me ask you this,why would people think it is cool to say that they voted for someone other than who they actually voted for when they come out of the voting places? And why would they do it in such incredibly high numbers? Do you think that there was an underground agreement for everyone to throw off the media so that they would air early announcements that the Democrats won - just as a lark? Or what's your theory? You buy the Bradley Theory? If Obama doesn't win and the exit polls have pointed to the Democrats winning again, there should be marches on the White House and we should rise up and demand a new election - one where the people count the paper votes in the town squares.

I disagree. Those links aren't from another universe. They're from people who have become very upset about the lies that the Republicans have put forth about the Democratic candidate for president. The people who authored those two pieces I posted links to, want to distribute via the 'net, the same kind of bunk that they've been reading everyday about Obama, only they make their bunk about McCain and Palin. There's lots more where that came from but I honestly do not wish to be one of the people who posts links all the time, knowing that the links are nothing but made up stories, like the extremists here at LBT do. I realize that Republicans aren't used to this behavior from Democrats, but let's face it you sure can't blame them. We've had to put up with the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter for years and from someone like T. Boone Pickins and other anonymous authors of extremist garbage fostered to make people fear Obama - a man who has worked hard for people - and a man who has been a Christian his entire life - a man who has been severly maligned and who has seen fit to rise above it. You better believe I will do a victory dance if he wins. I'm really tired of being beaten down by the lies and innuendo the Republicans have heaped on each and every nominee they oppose. Tired and sick of their dirty tricks at the polls and election boards. Tired and sick of people saying that both parties do it, when up until now it has been the Republicans who have won dishonestly. If the Democrats have learned that the only way to win is to play the game the Republican way, then maybe they'll have a fighting chance in this political game, which will be an enormous change in this country. And we darned sure need change, Jack. Surely you can agree with that.

Here's another one you will probably think is relevant. http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2008/09/show-me-trig-palin-birth-certificate_03.html You don't have to thank me. I know how much you all appreciate swapping pertinent links.

Ok, here's a Republican tactic. Obviously this kind of thing is more to your liking. http://www.zimbio.com/Bristol+Palin/articles/342/Sarah+Palin+Want+Baby+Die

MissyG: That was phunny!! There's just no end to the links posted here to political trash, it seems. I am beginning to have a peaceful calmness about this race. The Republicans seem to be finally going too far, even for Republicans. The day the Republicans post their true intentions and philosophy on the internet is the day we will never see. The reason: they cannot win a presidential election based on what their actual goals and intentions are. So they have no choice but to make up outrageous lies and distribute misinformation about their opponents and many of you here are instruments of their evil. Kinda makes my skin crawl. But no matter, I am calm and serene. I believe that most people are onto the Republicans these days. I'm sure they will keep stepping it up a notch. The latest (as of yesterday) of having a few plants at McCain's rallies scream out more and more obscene rehtoric is effectively putting a nail in the coffin of McCain's campaign.

Well ulp, gosh Missy G. you ought to listen to Rush. I'll bet you'd find him interesting too. He has a whole lot to say on all kinds of (made up)subjects and he certainly has interesting ways of looking at today's topics. Just as Ann Coulter's way of looking at stuff is interesting. They are certainly great at adult conversation. I'm so relieved that they are around to bring such fascinating viewpoints (lies) to public light. Golly gee, sarcasm is such fun sometimes!

Shout out to tha 3rd grade.. Joe Six Pack... Heels on and gloves off... etc., etc. How can you tell she's an educated woman? Dan Quayle had an education. George W. had an education. There are no guarantees that just because you got a coupla degrees that you'll use 'em for the greater good. I find Sarah Palin ridiculous and disgusting. Not because of her use or abuse of the English language. Not because she flirts and grins a disengenuous toothy grin. I find her disgusting because of her politics. She's just exactly what this country does not need. She's just exactly the kind of person who wants to take away some of my basic American freedoms. She's as scary as the helicopter she hunts from. And she reminds me a lot of some of the women I've worked with who made it to the top because they were willing to do just about anything to get there and whom you couldn't trust to do anything for anyone but themselves. Women can be real stinkers sometimes and she is stinking the loudest right now. She relishes her role as a rabid dog and she does it very well. And you can be sure that I have these feelings because of my own personal beliefs - not because I've read something someone else has written or something I heard someone else say on TV. To think that Sarah Palin could actually become the President of the United States makes my blood run cold and the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I feel like a caribou trapped in her sights right now. She's a threat to me, big time. Joe Biden has done a fantastic job in the Senate. He has worked hard and long for the people. He's just as qualified to run this country as John McCain and is the better man. Senator Obama has had more mud slung at him than even John Kerry. (And you people who praise McCain because of his war record but who bought into the Swift Boat ads, should be ashamed of yourselves.) Of course all of this is IMHO - you have yours, I have mine. I pray to the Lord each and every night to deliver us from the evil that the Republicans have perpetrated on the American people and continue to perpetrate. I pray that people will stop being blinded by the lies and start throwing the bums out. We're their bosses ya know. And btw, middle class Americans did not cause the bail out mess. They did not profit from the deregulation that the Republicans insisted upon. Corporate America did. And John McCain and the Republican party represent corporate America. Throw the bums out!

Thanks for the link, Jack, but why would anyone want to hear what Ann Coulter has to say? I guess if they're listening to Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter is probably interesting to them as well. Go figure. Anyone want to argue about how the color of a person's skin affects a man's ability to be president any more than a person's limited mobility or range of motion in his arms does? If we can discuss one, the other is certainly fair game. Although I would argue against name calling in either case.

Great to hear from you Wheet! As a matter of fact, if Palin were a man, she'd be laughed off the stage - like our old friend Dan Quayle was. Inexperience and light in the boots mentality always crosses gender lines. Her performance last night was just that, a performance. She did not give direct answers and she avoided any potential problems by reiterating something she had already said. She was insulting to her opponent and he didn't take the bait. They were both very well-rehearsed. She was well-scripted but it hurt her to not have a better grasp on reality - or maybe it served her well. No one seems to be calling her on it. I watched several reports on different chanels last night and they all agreed that Biden won - hands down. Now what they're saying this morning I have no idea - I'm supposed to be packing for Vegas. Palin does believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned and she does not think that same sex couples should be treated exactly as male/female couples. They let that slide. Of course even if someone tried to pin her down on her true beliefs, she has the maneuvers down perfectly on how to hide her real agenda. If you don't believe me, just read gadgetlady's passionate love of all things Palin. She makes it very clear for all of us. I thought Palin's nearly final answer was very telling - about what she'd do if McCain were to die and leave her with the presidency - frankly it looked to me like she's counting on it... wink, grin, wink, grin, wink, wink.

When I said congress was controlled by Republicans for the past 12 years, I mean prior to the current Demo control. The Republicans keep yelling that the Democratic controlled Congress has done nothing to fix all the stuff [the Republicans] have fouled up. They always forget to mention that they are the ones who got us here and that the Dems have only had a short time with more Democratic potential votes and that we continue to have a dishonest President who loves using his veto power. For heaven's sake, give us a break. We're not all completely stupid and ignorant of the facts. But I gotta say, if you're buying what they're saying, you just might be.

I believe that the ultra conservatives have stolen the Republican party away from mainstread Republicans. I have voted Republican in the past and my husband is a staunch Republican. However, we both agree that the Constitution is a scared document that the current administration has knowingly ignored, with malice in their hearts. Too many neo-cons believe that they know it all and that they should always be in charge, telling us who is patriotic and who is not, deciding whether we should go to war against our enemies or not. These new power grabbing, greedy, ignoramuses have been in control of the Congress for about 12 years. We are seeing only some of the aftermath of their way of doing things. It is time to throw the bums out!!! And that includes John McCain. He wants us to think of him as being on our side, but in nearly every case, he agrees with the current administration's actions. Besides, he likes the power that the war would give him. He should have stayed in the military and become a general like Patton. I feel sorry for true moderate conservatives in this country. Many of them must be struggling with what they hear their leaders tell them (over the past 12 years, especially) and what they've done while they've had the power and they've got to be very conflicted over this election process. I am not conflicted in the least. I know that Senator Obama is extremely capable and is extremely intelligent and that he will lead this country better than it has been lead in well over a decade. I am sorry that so many people fear someone (Senator Obama) who is a person who has proven that he cares about the working class. I don't have any pie-in-the sky illusions about what I believe he can accomplish while in office. On the other hand, I know exactly what we will get if we elect the McCain-Palin ticket and I honestly wonder how much worse it can get with Republicans at the helm. If Palin actually were to step into the Presidency, God Help Us All!! George W. Bush's actions would pale by comparison. I say this because she has proven it by her words and actions.

Well I'd say this thread has hit an all time low, but I can remember others where the conservatives and the liberals were at odds and it got even more out of hand than this one. But I am really surprised, shocked really, that anyone in America still thinks that Senator Barack Obama is a Muslim! If you think that, what are your sources? Are you deaf, blind and stupid? Or just so blinded by bias that you can't accept the truth about Senator Obama? So afraid that maybe he'll raise taxes, or that a man of some color will inhabit the White House? I promise you that if anyone tells you that they will not raise taxes when they get in the White House, they are lying. McCain will raise taxes, he's just not honest enough to admit to what extent he's going to have to do it. There's no other way out of this mess right now. Perhaps in the future taxes can be lowered again, but right now, we have to pay (big time) for what this Republican president has done while in office. For the person who kept asking what the Democratic agenda is. We could list it for you, easily. But why bother? I'm not convinced that you know the real Republican agenda - real because they prove it time after time though - not real because of what they promise they'll do. For anyone who calls Senator Obama "scary" I say they are ignorant. Ignorant of the facts and swayed by the trash they probably read on the 'net or perhaps they are listening to Rush, as someone admitted earlier. In fact, I am surprised that anyone admits to listening to that bald faced liar. But then I am surprised that anyone can want another 4 years of what we've had for the past 8. Republicans have sold us all down the river and our current economic situation has thrown a huge spotlight on that fact. They've sold our military down the river by thrusting them into a hideous war that has taken thousands of American military lives and has not seriously accomplished anything long term for that country, except for the bombed out condition that Iraq is in now and except for all the killed relatives they mourn. Oh yes, do you know what the monetary cost of the surge (that McCain touts as being so great), is costing us American taxpayers? Do you know how much money we're giving the government in Iraq? To continue... Republicans sold the taxpayers down the river because they promised less government and what they've delivered is MORE government. They've helped themselves become richer by their open, hands-off policies... their "trickle down" theory of economics, and unless you are one of those fat cats, you're crazy for voting them back in office. My guess is all this boils down to one big issue for many right wing conservatives: getting Roe v. Wade overturned. That's why you're thrilled with Sarah Palin and that's why you'll take the rotten bastards back after they've done such dispicable things to our country. Your Christian rightness screams out for what you believe is fair to the unborn children and nothing else matters much to you. The way some people have been endoctrinated by their church leaders and perhaps their parents and their Bible is what's scary in this country because it has led you to believe that it is your right - even your mission - to tell other Americans how to think, believe and worship. If you are one Christian who doesn't understand the reason for separation of church and state, then you need to get smart and stop behaving as the little sheep spoken of in the Bible.

Let me get this straight, Jack... you blame some Democratic Congressmen for this financial debacle? Really? Do you likewise put all the blame for the bad mortgage loans like your fellow Republicans say, squarely on the shoulders of the "stupid" homebuyers who used them? That's like saying that people who didn't drive tiny, low mileage, dangerous cars are also to blame for buying the magnificent, luxurious, extremely safe SUV's that the automakers manufactured. What convoluted thinking! Who stood to gain from the mortgage loans they invented? Who stood to gain from the gas-guzzling, expensive SUVs they created? I guess we have nothing further to discuss, you and I. We have absolutely no way to get there from here. You last three posters make some excellent points! Keep up the good work.

Sarah Palin's extremely right wing viewpoints do not represent mainstream America. We cannot stomach the idea of someone who is so very extremeist becoming our president. We cannot stomach the idea that one of the candidates for president chose someone who is so out of touch and out of her league. It begs the question, why? If the Republicans continue to have their way, Sarah Palin's way of life in pristine Alaska won't continue to be pristine forever. And you consider that a good thing? I think you just want to buck the system, whatever the system brings us. I wish you'd spend as much energy analyzing the activities of this administration in relation to the current economic mess. You really don't have to dig very deep. I was not in favor of Joe Biden for V.P. I was very disappointed that he was the selection - and not because I wanted Hillary - I did not want Hillary either. But the reasons for each are quite different. Joe Biden does a fantastic job in the Senate - we need him there! Hillary, on the other hand, sold out a couple of years ago to the powers that have caused much of our trouble in the world and I just couldn't stomach her anymore. However by comparison, Sarah Palin makes Hillary look like a saint. It's going to be interesting how this financial crisis gets handled. One person suggested (and he has tons of creditibility) that the reason McCain was so silent in the discussions was because the details have already been worked out. He's going to come up with a fabulous-sounding last minute plan that Bush and the Republicans in Congress are going to embrace and make him look like he has a clue in the economic world. Then the populace is supposed to swoon and vote for him. If the American public hasn't gotten a gut full of this administration and its' grotesque antics, they deserve what they get if they vote for them again.

I hope Joe Biden gets the opportunity to kick Sarah Palin's booty. But right now, it doesn't look like they can trust her out in public.

Ahhh, this is the thing that makes for hot political debate. And fortunately we live in a country where we can each and every one have compeltely opposing opinions and more importantly, that we can be as vocal as we want to be about them. You say that Senator Obama "is for" late term abortion and saying that is nothing short of what you accuse me of. To say you've seen a slag pond and equate it to McDonald's wrappers tells me a lot about your ability to do exactly what you accuse me of. And as for Michele Obama... I wonder if you are a black woman of Mrs. Obama's age? No? I'm sure you are not. And you are therefore completely unable to understand what it was like to be Michele Obama growing up. When you are reincarnated and are Michele Obama, then you will be qualified to speak to her opinions and voice on the subject of being raised as a poor black child in America in the 60's. Until then, you sound very prejudiced and you have little credibility. I expect you to vote for McCain. I expect you to vote for Sarah Palin. I couldn't expect anything else from people who speak as you do.

Thanks Watcher for giving me a forum to vent my spleen.

Good for you clusk! That's great that you're getting phycially involved. I was very impressed with the debates last night. It was a clear and defining moment for the choices we have in this election. I know no one likes to hear it, but there is no other way to see it than if we elect McCain, we will be looking at another president who is focused on war, not peace, and one who rewards the greedy fat cats. Instead of inspiring the wealthy corporate fat cats to help this country instead of just helping themselves to whatever they can squeeze out of this country, it would be more of the same under McCain. Even in the debate, he persisted in insulting Obama instead of taking the opportunity to brag on the positive plans he has laid out for the country. That's because he has nothing different to offer. The reason we are in this mess is because of the greed that most of us are guilty of. The men at the top of the heap were already making good money, but they wanted more. So they farmed jobs out, farmed out the automobile work, made loans that they knew shouldn't be made and now it's all come to a head like a giant boil and we're left with the job of trying to do the clean up without sustaining a serious infection that we cannot cure. I believe Senator Barack Obama is smart enough to get the job done. I don't know of anyone else who has a snowball's chance of getting all of this cleared up. Watching the idiots who are running McCain's campaign provides a very clear picture of how lacking on intelligence they are. You can just see them sitting around a table exclaiming how great some new plan of action to discredit Obama is. No one seems to be able to be the devil's advocate and tell them what the results will be if they take that action. I feel sorry for poor old McCain. He's floundering and frustrated and angry and has no way to save himself. I want the Democrats to win, but I wasn't hoping they would win due to some serious incompentency on the part of the Republicans, but they don't seem to be able to help themselves - they're just so used to employing every terrible smear tactic they can think up - and it's always worked before. I'm sure they're feverishly working to come up with something else ugly. Nothing will surprise me. But unfortunately for them, I think the American public finally sees through it and are sick and tired of it.

clusk - Good Job!!! Thanks, I will know where to look now. I hope you're right about the V.P. debate and the effect it will have.

P.S. I don't know if Senator Obama believes in Creationism. I understand that he is a Christian and reads the Bible. But I do know that he doesn't expect each and every American to believe as he does and practice the same religion that he does. I believe that he knows that Americans have the right to choose their own religion and that it does not threaten him in any way for people to practice religions that are different from his own. I hope that he recognizes the importance of the separation of Church and State. I wish that more people understood the importance of the separation of Church and State and stopped thinking that people who have different beliefs are bad and going to hell and I also wish that people understood that putting "In God We Trust" on our money doesn't have any affect whatsoever on how we live our lives in this country and it doesn't reflect whether we are good people or bad people. Furthermore I do not believe that our military does not respect Senator Obama. That's one of the Republican player tactics that just doesn't sit well with me. I know many more members of the military who support Senator Obama than who share the views of George Bush and John McCain. Sure, war gives them a chance to make more money and go higher up the ladder, but the ones I know are not stupid. They know how depleted our resources are and how beaten down our military is. They know how bad this war has been and how wrong we were to have waged this war. To say that our military is stupid and doesn't repsect Senator Obama is pretty nasty indeed.

What, what, what? Christianity is discriminated against in the U.S.? Are you kidding? Most of us are Christians. They do not teach other religions in our public schools. If you think they do, I'd be interested in seeing evidence of that. Uh yeah, I'd guess from your posts that you and Palin share similar beliefs. I certainly have no problem with that. But I don't want either one of you leading this country and insisting that the rest of us live by your religious belief system. Palin did go to the librarian and ask her what the steps were to have books removed from the public library. Her motives are possibly what are debatable, but she did request the information and it does smack of censorship. If you can't control your children's reading material, that shouldn't cause everyone else in America to only read children's books or Bibles. That's just convoluted thinking to say that books that you find objectionable should be banned from public libraries. You should ban objectionable books from your home. But you should have the freedom to read books that come from all over the world and that present varied interpretations and representations so that you can learn. If you are only permitted to read the Bible, how can you understand other religions? How can you understand your religious enemies? If you have principles and morals and strong religious beliefs, books that you find objectionable cannot harm you. They can make you stronger and more informed and worldly and intelligent. Do you really not understand this? I believe that we should all own guns. I believe that we should be issued guns at age 18 and be made to take proficiency tests and have regular target practice. We should be able to carry concealed weapons. Hopefully the smartest and best will take down the dumbest and worst in society and then many of our problems will be solved. Actually I say that somewhat facitiously, but I earnestly believe that if we all knew we were all armed, it might stop some of the bad people taking advantage of the weaker people. Guns are real euqalizers, aren't they? Except in the case of gun toters vs. animals. Oil drilling does pollute. I don't care how many oil wells your daddy owns. I grew up in a state whose largest commodity was oil. Everybody had one someplace on their property, if they were lucky. Oil wells are polluters - ever seen a slag pond? Ever seen an oil slick? To say that they are perfectly safe these days and that they don't pollute is naive. And none of us is ignorant to the fact that Alaskan residents want oil drilling in Alaska because it stands to make them rich. Just like many homeowners want gas companies to drill on their land even when they don't own the mineral rights. They stand to make easy money on the surface rights. Greed can cause lots of actions that aren't beneficial to our health and wellbeing. To further support the unbelievably rich oil companies by allowing them the kind of drilling they want, is completely stupid. But of course if you own oil companies or oil wells or have any investment in keeping us oil dependent, then I get your point. And by the way, I'd like someone to tell us where they heard the rumor that there are conservatives who want Palin to drop out of the race too. That sounds like the kind of stuff that Republicans usually put out to undermine Demos. Well since it's a tactic that is proven to work for Republicans, why shouldn't the Democrats do it? At this point, I think they're pretty frustrated that they're reaping some of what they sow. And that's a good thing.

I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. People can read. I only wrote what you wrote. Tell you what...I won't accuse you of putting words in my mouth either, okay? Although you may have interpreted what I wrote differently than I intended. But what's the big deal? You made a comment about how people should choose a candidate and vote - I responded with a question about why you think McCain chose Palin. 'Cause his choice sure seems to coincide with your observations about how people may choose a candidate. If people elect a person they think can do the job, what difference does it make if it is a "first" or not? That is the question. I can't imagine why anyone would vote for someone just because it hasn't been done before. But perhaps you're right. And if you are, that would be just wrong, like you said. Still with me?