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Btrie, What is wrong with doing what you have been doing since you started to work? It's not like you don't pay for others through other things now. Ohhhh I get it. Since someone made it really clear that you would be paying and the cat is out of the bag thus making you fully AWARE that you would and have been paying, you have a problem. Jeez. Another one that likes to bang their head against a wall............

Btrie, I think you sumed it up when you said you didn't give a damn about anybody else but you and your needs. I, on the other hand, care about my neighbor as well as myself. Thus I wish for all to have some form of healthcare, regardless. Oh, by the way, there are some people in the world who will never be able to make enough money to afford healthcare. Just a fact. ALso, nothing wrong with the contempt you show. Just stop having arguments about something you don't give a damn about because you have no critical solutions. I expect since you don't give a damn and in my book shouldn't have a damn thing to say on the subject, you should place your energy elsewhere. Here, I look for a discussion and ideas, not "i don't give a damn". Fug it, why did you come to speak on a subject you don't give a damn about, except when it relates to you AND have NO solutions or ideas that are constructive? Pleeze don't say because I can.......that would be sooo lame.

PG, Have no idea what you babble about but can we stick to the topic. Healthcare needs many advocates on both sides and what I think most people can all agree on is that people need healthcare if they can't afford it or ar incapable of getting. Lets try to solve the problem from that premise.

Hey All, Come back and witness another bad marriage!! Bonzi!! Big generalizations hitting the board. Welfare hags and Rove playbooks. What's a Rove playbook? I think it's a Cheney playbook today. Anyhoo, who thinks healthcare will change to the House version and succeed with the public option?

Hello All, Instead of taking a survey of the who have insurance, let's take a poll of the people who don't have insurance. Like, the people who can't afford phones to answer the survey or the people who can't afford to pay the mandate or better still the people who keep working at a job they have done for 25 years because they can't afford to quit because of not having insurance? Oh, I know... people between the ages 18 to 30 who make up a big part of the part time work force. Let's ask them if they think they need insurance. Me, I want health reform because the less fortunate don't have it and can't get it. I have insurance through my employer. I pay $60 dollars a month for 6 people. $10 per script and $50 for ER. $10 copay for office visit. Not having it is not the issue. Get it done for all those who have shtty insurance and people who can't get it. DOn't give a ding about Bush, what he did or didn't do, Obama, what he did in the past.

Teri and Btri, Looks like you guys have a ugly marriage. Think I'll stay out of it. But I will say that thank God for passage in the Senate. Hopefully they can get the public option or something close to it through after reconsiliation. I support Health care.

As stated earlier, don't let your trifflin' experiences color the whole spectrum of PA recipients. Just like I don't let some idiot white people and some idiot black people color my experience for them as a whole. I take each person as they come. It's called grow up.

You keep beating that cost drum. As I expressed earlier in a post. Cost is less important than getting people covered with insurance. People first, then the cost. Not saying cost is not important but it is less important than getting people covered who are dying. Maybe I am crazy like that. Maybe I am the only one, but that's how it works for me. So giving us quotes about the cost, fall on my deaf ears. Argue the merits of the bill but cost,......pleeeez. Oh, nothing to say regarding the hypocritical McCain?

Hey all, Now we need a blend of the bills in both House and Senate. Let's hope pressure has been brought to bear to keep public option. Ladies, hold the line for demolition of the Stupak(Stupid) Amendment. No way we need to go backward in that regard. HOLD...THE...LINE!!! We are not taking one for the team!!!

Saw the vote. Was watching CNN. At one point, Dr. Sanjay took a call and the call was amazing. Not only did the caller express her displeasure at the bill, but she actually spouted the same talking points heard here about HC. Tort reform Across state line insurance This was like word for word what has been mentioned here. I wonder is there a standard website where they get these talking points? Oh, I forgot, Fake Noise. The exact same talking points, amazing the rank and file crowd. If we as liberals would hear the dog whistle and fall in line instead of thinking for ourselves, we could actually get some things done productively without all this hagling.

Unfortunately, the American people don't know what they want other than not wanting socialism. Most people or the majority of people want health care. The debate got stolen by the tea douche baggers in the summer and they distorted the facts. Their best argument is too much money. As I said earlier, I don't give a hoot about the cost as long as people get covered and I don't have to see people go to the doctor or emergency room sick and come out with a 3k bill because they can't get some kind of coverage. It should not be out of reach for people like it is now. No reason a person who works at Walmart should not have insurance at the age of 23. They should be able to afford it and this bill goes that way to helping them get it. Not everything I wanted, single payer, but it can start to get close. Oh, people have known about this 1am session for a couple days. Good enough. If the Repuglicans keep trying to stall this instead of being productive and helping make the bill better, the American people won't benefit. Not left or right. The people. We also would not be having this shotgun session.

This is an issue that will be debated forever. But I think we will prevail because why we feel this way is as American as apple pie. Freedom. Freedom to have the choice just as in healthcare. Which will give people choice of staying with their insurance or going with something else. If you can afford it, stay with who you wish. People who can't afford it have the choice of getting into the government sponsored one or buying one they wish to buy. Single payer would make it so most people would be driven practically to the government run option. We won't get single payer. Public option is different. Maybe the insurance companies need to go out of business since they seem to want to extort the American people with premiums out the roof. This too won't happen, but people can get reasonable coverage with public option. Let's hope they reconcile the public option or something similiar during negotiations in the coming months. WHo is going to be up at 1am to see history and the Repugs get a slap in the teeth?

It's amazing. They don't want the government to have control in healthcare but have no problem using the government for their agenda of giving them control over a womans body. I don't get into whether a baby is a baby at time of concept. That is above my pay grade. But I do say no one should have the right to tell me what I can do to my body because I and I alone know what's best for my body. Keep your religious beliefs out of my hospital room. MY ROOM not the governments nor the religious bases. Hypocrites. They want the government to control that. Fat chance.

Lets get an understanding right now. Rethuglicans don't give a damn about the religious right. They give a damn about the insurance companies just like the Democrats only give a damn about them as well. That is what I meant about the Repuglicans knowing what they are doing. It's just like they ring a dog whistle for these religious right characters, and they respond. Let's ring the abortion bill on the right so the dogs will run in that direction. Then they won't see what we are really doing over on the left. The Repuglicans know this bill has nothing significantly to do with abortion and yet here we are going over that old road again. They are good at rallying their base and the base has no clue they are being treated like Pavlov's dog. None of them give a dam about the average joe. The White House made a deal with big Pharma months ago. The Rethugs are owned by the insurance company's, right along with Leiberman. Ben Nelson does not give a damn about the religious right or too much about abortion. Yet the religious right seems to think so. He sure did turn his revolt because of abortion language into a windfall for his state. What happened to that love of religious right in than moment? And please don't say he is a Democrat, because he is not. He is a politician who plays both sides to his advantage. That makes him an equal opportunity bell ringer. Religion don't mean jack sheet. It's a tool to control the wacky base and it works. If I could bump the head of the religious right anytime I wanted to by ringing the abortion bell at will, I would do it to.

I gotta say this. Those Rethuglicans are good. They took the only issue that would make the kooks come out and made it the only talking point they have against health reform. The abortion language. Never mind that health care reform is about getting people insured who don't have it. I love the way they keep getting kicked in the teeth as the party of NO. Keep saying no and the road will get even harder. Or better still, keep knocking your head against the wall. Progress has to happen. This bill is not the end of improving healthcare, this passing of the bill will be the beginning because I am still not satisfied, but it's a start.

FUDGE EM!!! Reconciliation!!!!

Pattygreen, Do you believe everything you read on the Internet? I also looked at what you posted and laughed because you never post about real humans and are only capable of coming up with tidbits of which you read about. Nothing about those are facts just observations based on a person who likes to bash liberals. I don't bash any conservative except you since you seem to be misguided in how to tackle problems of American complexity. I am a liberal and proud of it, but I would never paint people with a broad brush as that. Some are offended. I makes me sad that such idiocy exist and being a conservative are not above it.

So, government has no responsibility to help the poor, thats our responsibility? Us, who may be just above poverty ourselves. It's our responsibility. Let's not drag the government in at any point to help otherwise its corrupted or will be corrupted if they get involved? WOW

"There comes a time when all that sh-- will hit the fan. You can't keep on spending and believe that it won't affect America. (Just what someone should have said in Bush's term but didn't. )Imagine you owe $200,000. in personal debt. You keep charging because you understand that your never going to be able to pay that off, so what's another $50.00 added to it. Then one day, they come and take the only place you have to live. Your house. That will be America." You still don't get it. The shit already hit the fan when Bush was in office. Not saying Bush did anything, but we started to see the effects under him. With your way of thinking, all this started when the more spending started under Obama. This spending is productive, reactive spending. Not the spending to get more and to be better. This is called recovery spending and I am all for a recovery. We can't keep spending but we can't not spend and let it all go to hell. Let all the banks fail, let all the auto industries fail, let all the people go under in their houses. We can't let it happen and thank God we can't. We would be in more trouble.

The government is NOT a business. Only businesses spend money to make money. The government is not a business you say. This argument is over if you can't understand that basic principle. You liberal fanatics seem to think that you are the only ones with brains. It's getting old and very insulting to the rest of the country that doesnn't agree with you. That's another thing about the lot of you, you feel that you have all the answers. Well, you don't. I am not a liberal fanatic. A fanatic tries to push their views on other people regardless of the facts. In this case, this is you who wishes to push views on others regardless of the facts. That is our point in all of these conversations. People who know more about our economy is helping to run it and you seem to think you know better. We are all sideline players unless we are in that mix. This I do know, you however keep hitting your head on the wall without having any influence. Stop being a sideline player and run for the Senate. Then your opinions will carry the weight. I however are content to sit on the sideline and take my lead from people who know better. So no, I am not trying to force my view on anyone. My view is what is best for this country to move forward in a practical way regardless if it takes us in a socialist direction. Spending IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!! It's the PROBLEM!!!! The American people have the solution, but congress lives in another world. What part of we have to spend money to help that you all just don't get? What part of the cash for cluncker didn't work, what part of the lending cash to wall st. didn't work? Are they or are they not paying this money back? Now they are using that pay back money(which will be a profit for the American people) for jobs. What part is too difficult to uderstand? The argument that they should not lend money is old and mute. It's been one. It's done. Railing against it is unproductive. The money is spent and the American people will reap those benefits when people start to get back to work. And the debt will go down just as it has in the past. You railing against it won't change the facts.

It's not like the government can get into the business of saving the world. No, but they must be in the business of taking care of all its citizens and that means healthcare for all. If they can't find a way to provide for their citizens then they should be voted out. It's not the money that's the problem, although it is a serious problem , it's the government control of the HC decision making that bothers most people. It's the government taking on yet another fraction, a large one at that, of control over society. Oh?, that seems to be all you are tooting your horn about on this board. What exactly are you talking about? Ohhhh, so you prefer being told what you can and cannot have by the big insurance industy? By your insurance company. You have that now. Doesn't the insurance company tell you what surgery you can and cannot have now? Ohhhhh, but since it might be the government, and I am not saying it is, then it's bad? Because it's the big bad, government. Pleeeease. Don't they control your life and many aspects of it now? If you are soooo concerned over these 15,000 people who have no insurance, (yet have not rallied your support to end the 440,000 deaths annually from cigarette smoking) then it would be enormously cheaper to just purchase ins. for them, or allow them to get on medicaid or medicare, which is a gov. run insurance that's already instated. 85% of Americans are satisfied with their insurance plan. Why wreck or transform an already good thing we have going here for the sake of a fraction of the country. Do something for the fraction if they want, but leave the rest of us alone. You make it sound like people without insurance smoke. Has nothing to do with the option of having insurance. Apples and oranges. Adding people 55 and older would wreck it even though its already up and running? How would this wreck it?

So, your point is you care more about the money than healthcare for all or most?

"But where do you find a town, city or state with all their bills paid and extra money in the pot? It's rare. The mentality of the liberal fanatic is to spend more than you have every time! " So what you are saying is that all towns and cities that excessively spend are run by liberals? WOW. Seeing as how it is rare, and according to your premise, towns never have extra money, why is that in your opinion? Why is it most cities, according to you, run in the red? They have run in the red because of the feeding frenzy of the last couple of years, which now dictates the government spending more money to get us out of trouble. Under Bush rule, I might add. Where was this socialist crap back then? Half the people shouting about socialism don't even know what it is. They hear the words from some idiot on TV and take it as gospel, literally. Let alone the fact that we have socialized programs before. And some programs here are founded on a socialist dynamic before we even kew what protesting government policy was. Here is an idea. Lets all go back to when people had their head in the sand and were running up their credit cards ,having play dates at Starbucks and running to the mall every weekend. We can't. It's too late to turn back. We have to change the country to a new parody and not a comical one. If that means spending money to get to high ground, so be it. And please, please don't give me the bullshit about, "we are leaving our kids in debt". They, like generations before us, will work that shit out. Work it out!!!! Just like we will deal with the here and now.

I posted this in another rant and rave but I'll post it here too. Question: Would you rather people continue to die and get sick because they don't have healthcare rather than not pass some sort of first step to health care because it cost too much? As stated before, I don't give too much of a dam how much it cost, the American people need it. Get it done and forget all the noise about cost. Try to keep the cost down, if not fudge em. Get it done.

My question is to all... Kartman posted some of the things Obama promised and some of the things voters want him to do. Why then does it make a difference to some because he is spending the money doing it? Some of these things will cost money, that is the bottom line. WHy is it now that these things cost money that we have some of you guys jumping ship. If you really were well versed with the issues, you knew from jump these things would cost money. Or at least you should have known. People thought these things would cost nothing? You thought these things would just be funded though cutting budgets and program and the defense of the country? Come on, people. A lot more than you would be up in arms if we cut out the programs we have in place now for new stuff. Americans hate change especially when they have to sacrifice. Look at all of the people against health care which should answer one fundemental question for me. Maybe only me. Question-Would you have more people die because they don't have access to healthcare or would you rather the goverment be more concerned about the cost incurred for passing healthcare? I don't give a dam about the cost. I give a dam about people today who need medicines and doctor care and can't get it because they are poor or have preexisting conditions. Fudge the money.